should I do it while I'm numb?

Tough call, it sounds like it was being protective to me. Even though the person was walking away, animals don't fight by the same rules when they've decided someone is moving in on their pack. Human morality does not apply in the animal kingdom. The dog could have been doing what it thought it was supposed to, and waiting for others in the pack to join in. Prey that is fleeing is showing weakness, and is to be pursued.

That said, if you get plenty of rest, and decide the dog just isn't right in the head, that's another story. Tough call, detach yourself to see the truth. And pray about it.
 
Sleep on it and pray about it all good advice...

If the dog had gone after your son..then I'd be for swift action. But a stranger..well, give it some serious thought. Do what you need to do to secure the dog so you feel everyone is safe, but give him a few days reprieve while you sort it out.

Good luck, and sorry this happened.
 
Hey mate,
Firstly if it was me I would tell your son the truth, he will learn from it. Secondly I would take the dog to the vet to be put down. Vets love animals so they use drugs that will NOT cause pain.
 
:( "liability issues". What a plague on our society. I'm glad your dog got a reprieve. I agree with Xinel, if worse comes to worse, let the vet do it. Hope it doesn't come to that though.
 
Glad to hear that the dog is getting probation. I've had to put down several in my time on this plane. It is never easy when the dog is considered part of the family. I will never put another of mine down again if I can possibly avoid it. I will do as xinel suggested. No pain involved. They just go to sleep, and that's it. Had to do this with the last dog I owned. He was getting too old, had hip problems, was loosing his eyesight, and his quality of life could not be improved. Choice was do it myself or take him to the vet. I chose the vet.Was with him to the end.

Dan has a valid point. Was he obeying the training that he has received? Was said training adequate? Is more training the answer? Is more intensive training affordable? If not, is the animal adoptable to a family/person that can afford/has the knowledge for said training? All decisions to consider while he is on his probationary period.

Also, do the "no trespassing" signs mention a dog? Do you have "Beware of Dog" signs posted? Here in Colorado, if you have the "Beware of Dog" sign posted, anyone that gets bit, that did not have permission to be on the property, CANNOT sue in court. Now if the dog gets loose, that's a whole new ball of wax.
 
Runs with scissors,

What state are you in? and What breed of dog (how large) is he? My wife has some rescue contacts in Colorado, and, through them, several other states. If he is a good dog that just did this out of defense of his home, it is possible that, should you decide that he can't be with you and yours, he could be rehomed. Both my Pyrenees, and my Elkhound are adopted from others. In the case of the elkhound, she was removed from a home for abuse...she was, literally, crazy. We have had her for just over a year, and she is now the sweetest little girl you could ever imagine. I know that your dog has not been abused in any way (at least I get that from your obvious feeling in your posts that you and your family love him dearly), I am just using this as an example that sometimes second chances work out. Email me if there is anything I can do to help, or someone I could put you in touch with to help.

Brian
 
Hey mate,

I forgot to add that I'm sorry that all this has happened, and God knows its a difficult decision and I hope it all works out.
 
I dont know what to say, and dont have any better advice to give than what has already been said. It's a sad story, I hope it works out well for all involved.

The only thing I know is that I would never ever let anyone else put my pet down. John Steinbeck wrote better about this than I ever could.

Of Mice and Men.

Blessings,

Keno :(
 
RWS, I am sorry that you are dealing with this. It sounds to me like your dog was trying to protect your son from a percieved threat. I know that my two dogs are much more protective of my 4 children (especially the two youngest) than the wife and I.

You know the scenario best, and I'm sure that you will make the right decision.
 
I've been a protection dog trainer 25 years.
E-mail me if you want a pro's advise.
"Sorry have to ingect some sanity"
Hate to offer free advice but the dog's life is at risk.

I think you're overreacting.
All dogs bite.
That's why they have teeth.
Why is your 9 year old answering the door to a STRANGER? Alone in charge of a dog that bites?
If anyone is in need of a correction or needs to be "Put down" it's you bro.
Dogs do what dogs do.
You need to train your kid and your dog.
Someone needs to train you.
For all you know that guy had the intention of snatching and raping/killing your kid.
That dog could be a hero.
You were neglagent in controling your animal and supervising your kid.
Don't take out your shortcomings on your dog.

I could train the dog "Platz" on command so you can answer the door without the dog running after your guest.
Just who is in CHARGE in your house?
Kids and pets or YOU?
Grow a set and take charge.
Now you know.


Ivydev2@hotmail.com.
 
Here's my experience.

We adopted a dog last year and he was bitey. We were afraid of him a bit.

We had a few trainers come out to consult and one said it was a very tough thing to train a dog out of and that it could take 9 months or a year.

So after our family and friends were afraid of being in the house, we realized this had to end. We took him back to the shelter.

It was very sad for me. I loved him and he was a good dog, just misguided and confused. Innocent really.

I doubt anyone will adopt him and it might have been more humane if we had put him down.

But we had signed an agreement with the rescue organization to give him back to them if we had to get rid of him, and we honored that agreement.

I do think dogs can be trained but there is a price you have to pay and it isn't a bad thing if you can't pay that price...either in time or money or worry.
 
Grappler1911 said:
I've been a protection dog trainer 25 years.
E-mail me if you want a pro's advise.
"Sorry have to ingect some sanity"
Hate to offer free advice but the dog's life is at risk.

I think you're overreacting.
All dogs bite.
That's why they have teeth.
Why is your 9 year old answering the door to a STRANGER? Alone in charge of a dog that bites?
If anyone is in need of a correction or needs to be "Put down" it's you bro.
Dogs do what dogs do.
You need to train your kid and your dog.
Someone needs to train you.
For all you know that guy had the intention of snatching and raping/killing your kid.
That dog could be a hero.
You were neglagent in controling your animal and supervising your kid.
Don't take out your shortcomings on your dog.

I could train the dog "Platz" on command so you can answer the door without the dog running after your guest.
Just who is in CHARGE in your house?
Kids and pets or YOU?
Grow a set and take charge.
Now you know.

Ivydev2@hotmail.com.
Click to expand...

harsh reality but true. a dog is a reflection of the owners. it's never the dog's fault for how they are trained. mostly.

dog's don't understand "retreat" like we do. the guy was still in your yard, and running away, and that is all the dog needs to justify. oh, and your son let the dog out. you son might have been nervous/afraid, and the dog picked up on that too, and an open door is permission.

my ex-grrl is a dog trainer. her dogs are trained to bark like maniacs at the door, and NEVER run outside unless told. they'll also instantly stop barking if told to, and will move away from the door on another command. they will lick intruders to death also on command :> you (or the wife) can do this training.

first though, i would:
o take the dog to a vet for a complete exam; as above, the dog might have something wrong with it. tumor, or an infected tooth or ear infection even can make them REALLY irritable.

o put up a warning for "dog in yard/etc" - a visual type that doesn't need language to understand.

o also put up a "no soliciting" placard as well in addition to the no trespassing. take pictures of these. it wouldn't hurt to check local ordinance as well to be sure - cover your ass. while you're at it, verify the homeowners - don't get caught off your feet.

okay, dog is checked out, the property is sane... i have to agree, strongly, that it is NOT the dog's fault. the dog was not under control when the door was opened. shouldn't have happened. perhaps a door chain? perhaps a higher up latch your son can't reach (yet). train the son.

as for the dog, some people luck out and have mild dogs and they understand the rules better than you think. in fact, they know them better than their humans, and get confused when what you *do* is different than the rules. if the dog is famliy, and a loved companion, you'll learn this. then you'll teach the dog the rules. training. see "clicker training" and the book "don't shoot the dog: the new art of teaching and training". it works. it's for the dog and the family.

so, i'm sorry you had this incident, and i hope you can work it out for everyone's benefit, including the dog. if not, take the dog with you on your job, it can protect your truck, and if need be, ultimately if you REALLY have to, well, give the dog away. shooting it would be ... overkill, i think. however, i'm not you, and it's not my dog, or my family.

best,

bladite
 
The next morning....

Things are still bleak. I'm not going to have my friend put down before exploring all other options. I'm willing to do what it takes to keep him alive, and preferrably with us, but it's going to be a long hard road with assessments, training, etc. There's no doubt in my mind he deserves a second chance, whether or not that second chance could be given in a quiet suburban neighborhood remains to be seen. Can you train a lab not to fetch? a collie not to herd the children? sometimes yes, sometimes......


My wife will have a huge say in the matter, since I spend half to three quarters of my time on the North Slope. obviously, a protective dog is good in these circumstances. a dog that the wife or kid can't control....that would be a different story.

We're starting out, with hardware solutions, fences, doorlocks, etc. but of course do not intend to rely on such, and will delve into some serious training if it's an option. (Remember, the state itself may remove that option):(

If other options fail, I'll do everything I can to find a good home for him, although people that are willing to take in "pitbull-ish" dogs with an attack history are kind of scarce.

Jessie is a 75lb unknown terrier that we adopted as a stray. I'd never say he was a Pitbull due to the fact that our homeowners insurance wouldn't cover us with him.

Turns out my son didn't open the door for a stranger, but was coming back in from dumping a pot of bean juice in the woods. He had just opened the door to come in when Mr. End of the world was coming into the yard. It turns out to have been a case of supremely horrible timing. In the real world, unfortunately these things sometimes happen.

Ironically, I've been thinking of "Mice and Men" since the incident occurred.

Whatever happens, I will tell my son.

In Alaska "Beware of Dog" signs are a big no-no. It acknowledges that you have a vicious dog on premises. a "No Trespassing" sign however, covers you quite well in that once you DO trespass, it is at your own peril.

I still can't figure whether it was a protective instinct or something else. The pragmatic repercussions are the same either way. He clearly wasn't deadset on ripping out the guys throat or anything, otherwise he would have. He also acted outside of his training, and against my commands for the first time. (he went around me a couple times to get at the guy) In the meantime, I can only judge on what I've seen. It's absolutely insipid to even remotely suggest the guy had ill intentions unless I've witnessed evidence otherwise, which I haven't. And believe me, I've looked hard. (kinda suspicious of door to door end of the world pamphlet givers from the start)

He's nothing but wonderful with friends and family, but a risk with anyone else he doesn't know or isn't introduced to.

In the past two occurrences I'd mentioned, he was not punished, but rewarded.

Financial liability is a consideration, but plays a secondary role to morality. I just can't have a dog that's going to rip out sweet old Mrs.Hannah's throat when she's halfway in the yard with a freshbaked pie because he thought she was going to hurt the family.

In any case, I'm not killing having him put down unless there is no other option.

I'll write more as time allows, but...it's going to be a wild day.

I can't thank y'all enough for the well wishes, prayers, and input. Well...most of ya' anyways....you know who you are...:D
 
RWS...

I had a bro that was once in a similar bind...I was the one that got the nod to "take care of" the dog...HE didnt have the set to do it, and since I dont like shooting animals, I convinced my bud to give her to me...With a little training she was a really good dog for me and mine for several years

AND even though it was put very harshly I gotta pretty much agree with grappler1911...A dog like that needs training...It usually isnt that expensive to do just time consuming and it takes alot of disipline from YOU

Good luck to your dog bro...Sounds like he was doing his job (in his mind)
 
Odd. I kinda thought that Grappler came off unnecessarily as a complete horse a$$ and passed alot of judgement without knowing me or my family. (and that includes the dog)

I thought many, many things about the gent in just a few short minutes infact. Most of them would get me banned if I stated them however.
Also, I can't get too worked up about one $*$!!&@!! I'm sure I could find a few more on the world wide web if I searched hard enough...;)

In retrospect I almost regret having started this thread, inspite of all the wonderful input. I'm currently waiting for the infamous "Good Pit Bull/Evil" Pitbull" argument to come in, as well as the "animals can do no wrong, it's always people that are profoundly flawed" posts. I started it during a moment of weakness, and have said too much in some respects, and not near enough in others. Oh well, what's done is done, and I'll ride it out.

Post something on a public forum, and everyone gets to add input, like it or not.

Of course on the other hand there has been ALOT of good input, and that matters more than pride and feelings when it comes to my family.
 
I agree. Grappler suggested you be put down. He is typical of someone who knows much about a specific skill or topic, and then can't understand why everyone does not. He cannot see the forest through the trees. He sounds like a fanatic who has lost broad better judgment on his 'pet' topic. ( bad pun)
The truth: most dogs do not bite people upon a door being opened. You can 'blame' the owner, but as this was a first incident, it's kind of hard to see how a typical owner could have known this was going to happen.

A dog is a critter with a whole wide range of responses, and on the extremes, whether by temperament, poor training, or deliberate abuse, they sometimes will be too reckless and dangerous to own. There are lots of families that own pit bulls that have no problem with them. There are lots of families with pit bulls that had no problem with them until they killed the kid down the street.

RWS; You do what you need to do. If training would help and you've the time and inclination, do that. If this anomally leaves you with no trust, do what you have to.

Let me say again, almost all dogs can bite, only a few will do so, despite the enormous variance in owners. You are not a bad owner, nor a bad person.

Grappler; Your observations would be better if they were directed towards a person who'd earned them. RWS is not some unaware slob who blames the world for his own misunderstanding. I appreciate your frankness, and the use of the word 'bro' when you were blasting away, but you were out of line. I see this is your first post. This place is not like most on the net. Take the time to understand this community and you'd be given the benefit of the doubt.


munk
 
RWS - we're here to help out, bro. We just don't want you to rush into something you'll regret...nor do we want you to act hastily...nor do we want you to have an unsafe home.

Now that you're aired the breed...I wanted to ask..but hesitated because I don't know you well enough...but, like I said...since it's now on the table...please consider that sometimes older bull-terrier breeds can get health problems (physical and mental) that can sometimes cause them to act irregularly.

I'd take the dog to the vet and have his vitals checked. If he checks out, start a rigorous training. But, he may have a problem...

Either way, you're danged if you do, danged if you don't...

I feel your pain, bro.


Dan

(pit-bull lover)
 
RWS,
After sitting back and reflecting on your post I am GLAD you trusted us enough to post it...

and I would like to apologize if my agreeing with grappler's post came off as thuggish...

anywho...


Now Dan makes a really good point in his post and it makes sense...However I have also thought of something else...Maybe the dog sensed something about the guy that was "off" for lack of a better word...Dog's senses are stronger than our's and they trust there's completely while we second guess ourselves alot
 
I thought maybe the dog knew something we didn't. Also think Dan's post got us back to what was most important.


munk
 
I will agree with the "dog may have known something you didn't" theory. My Pyrenees (135 lb muppet that turns into a raving wolf when provoked enough (takes a lot though)) when walking with my wife, doesn't like people within about 10 ft of her, but allows them 99% of the time as long as my wife isn't upset by them. He has, on occassion, decided certain people shouldn't be near her, regardless of how she is acting. Same with the house and yard. He does cease and desist instantly on command, and will stand there with hair on end growling, but not moving forward with aggressive action. He has saved my wife from at least one assault (homeless beggar grabbed her.....wrong move) he ran the guy off then stopped when the bad guy was out of his protective zone around my wife.

Back to the "unidentified terrier". I could be wrong, but I have heard from more than one source that pitbulls are not usually human aggressive, but are extremely dog aggressive as bred. (they were bred to fight dogs, but obey humans) I have met far more aggressive dogs of other breeds than pitbulls. The fact that attacks by pitbulls are publicized, is due to the popular image of them being "attack" or "fighting" dogs. This public image, IMHO, and in many cases I have seen at dog parks and elsewhere, has led people to exhibit an elevated level of aprehension around the dog. This, in turn, puts the dog on edge creating a self fulfilling prophesy. I see the opposite effect every time I go to the park or take a walk with my Pyrenees. He looks like a great big fluffy teddy bear....nobody that meets him thinks he is anything but that. In reality, he could do just as much if not more damage to them than a pitbull, but people will tread lightly around a pitbull because of the way he looks. Think of it as a racial stereotype.
 
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