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Every dog gets one bite......stay your hand for his loyalty's sake, and see if it happens again. Jus my opinion.
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should I do it while I'm numb?
- Thread starter Runs With Scissors
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Could be the dogs sensing something. upon reflection, Jessie has done that before. When we first got him I had him in front of a convenience store waiting for my wife. half a dozen people or so walked out, and he paid no attention. a few of them stopped to pet him, he loved the attention. Guy #10 came out of the store and he began snarling and lunging for him. After he left another half dozen people walked by without a problem.
He never fully trusted or liked my wifes step brother, with good reason. The man was a repeated sexual offender who is now in prison.
Trick is teaching him that we can't just kill or maim everything and everyone we distrust.
As I've always understood it, Pits were originally used for bull baiting (the (sport?) of hanging from a steer until it flopped to the ground)
After bull baiting was made illegal they were used for dog fighting, hence the ocassional PB agressiveness towards other animals.
After dog fighting was made illegal they were largely used as farm and ranch dogs. (hence Jessie's protectiveness of the front yard?) hmmm....
At no time were they ever bred to be vicious towards people. I really don't think a Pit is more violent than any other dog, but due to thier speed, strength, and determination, they DO happen to be pretty darn good at violence when they decide to be violent. I do view them as largely misunderstood as a breed. (perhaps even by those who love them)
I won't judge my dog as a breed, but as an individual creature.
Sometimes pain does make animals act agressively. My parents had a Newfoundland with hip displaysia that hadn't progressed very far yet. (that anyone knew of) I caught him digging in a garbage can out in the yard and gave him a light swat in the butt and a firm "no!" He slowly backed his head out of the can, looked at me, growled, and lunged for my throat. I spent the better part of a minute (a very, very, very long minute) fighting a 200 pound dog off my throat and testicles. I staggered him a time or two, but never knocked him out. he stopped attacking for a moment while I circled into the house. He sat at the door step growling and waiting for me to come back out for ten minutes. After that, it was like nothing had ever happened as far as he was concerned. I was incidentally his favorite person because of the time I spent with him. Sometimes animals snap I guess.... (he was put to sleep the next morning)
The incident out front was strange. The more I consider it, the stranger it was. Jessie DID NOT make a dedicated attack. There are few men who could have survived if he had. He kept jumping up and grabbing the guys forearm. no throat, no leg or anything else, just that arm. When the guy made a kinda weak (but apparently effective enough) attempt to fight back Jessie ran out of range and then charged back in. After three rounds and much screaming, yelling, and trying to stop him on my part he just ran back into the house where he cowered in the corner of the living room, cause he knew I was p!ssed. He was also growling, which did indicate a percieved threat. He also didn't retreat until the guy was about half way out of the yard. Even the attack itself was very un pitbull like. From what I've seen in the past, Pits usually grab something, and hang on for dear life in one dedicated attack, not feint, retreat, charge, bite, etc. Very unusual.
If everything goes the way I'd like we will:
have a physical assessment conducted
Have a mental assessment conducted
make a determination whether he stays, goes, or dies.
If he stays we will consult every source out there, and take every measure possible to train him not to have any future repeats.
If he has to go, I may even list him here- In any case I'd be very, very, very picky about his next owner and make sure they know his history.
If he dies. well.....It'll take a long time to heal.
Leatherface; I've always seen you as one of the good guys. That's never changed.
thanks again all for the input.
He never fully trusted or liked my wifes step brother, with good reason. The man was a repeated sexual offender who is now in prison.
Trick is teaching him that we can't just kill or maim everything and everyone we distrust.
As I've always understood it, Pits were originally used for bull baiting (the (sport?) of hanging from a steer until it flopped to the ground)
After bull baiting was made illegal they were used for dog fighting, hence the ocassional PB agressiveness towards other animals.
After dog fighting was made illegal they were largely used as farm and ranch dogs. (hence Jessie's protectiveness of the front yard?) hmmm....
At no time were they ever bred to be vicious towards people. I really don't think a Pit is more violent than any other dog, but due to thier speed, strength, and determination, they DO happen to be pretty darn good at violence when they decide to be violent. I do view them as largely misunderstood as a breed. (perhaps even by those who love them)
I won't judge my dog as a breed, but as an individual creature.
Sometimes pain does make animals act agressively. My parents had a Newfoundland with hip displaysia that hadn't progressed very far yet. (that anyone knew of) I caught him digging in a garbage can out in the yard and gave him a light swat in the butt and a firm "no!" He slowly backed his head out of the can, looked at me, growled, and lunged for my throat. I spent the better part of a minute (a very, very, very long minute) fighting a 200 pound dog off my throat and testicles. I staggered him a time or two, but never knocked him out. he stopped attacking for a moment while I circled into the house. He sat at the door step growling and waiting for me to come back out for ten minutes. After that, it was like nothing had ever happened as far as he was concerned. I was incidentally his favorite person because of the time I spent with him. Sometimes animals snap I guess.... (he was put to sleep the next morning)
The incident out front was strange. The more I consider it, the stranger it was. Jessie DID NOT make a dedicated attack. There are few men who could have survived if he had. He kept jumping up and grabbing the guys forearm. no throat, no leg or anything else, just that arm. When the guy made a kinda weak (but apparently effective enough) attempt to fight back Jessie ran out of range and then charged back in. After three rounds and much screaming, yelling, and trying to stop him on my part he just ran back into the house where he cowered in the corner of the living room, cause he knew I was p!ssed. He was also growling, which did indicate a percieved threat. He also didn't retreat until the guy was about half way out of the yard. Even the attack itself was very un pitbull like. From what I've seen in the past, Pits usually grab something, and hang on for dear life in one dedicated attack, not feint, retreat, charge, bite, etc. Very unusual.
If everything goes the way I'd like we will:
have a physical assessment conducted
Have a mental assessment conducted
make a determination whether he stays, goes, or dies.
If he stays we will consult every source out there, and take every measure possible to train him not to have any future repeats.
If he has to go, I may even list him here- In any case I'd be very, very, very picky about his next owner and make sure they know his history.
If he dies. well.....It'll take a long time to heal.
Leatherface; I've always seen you as one of the good guys. That's never changed.
thanks again all for the input.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,410
Just for the heck of it, do a search for the end of the world guy's name here: http://www.familywatchdog.us/
RWS
That is a very strange *attack* by a pitbull, they usually do grab hold and never let go. Very strange indeed. Mr Koster is right about that breed becomming a little strange with old age. Friends of mine have had pitbulls for years and they are great dogs but he has had one go funny with old age.
That is a very strange *attack* by a pitbull, they usually do grab hold and never let go. Very strange indeed. Mr Koster is right about that breed becomming a little strange with old age. Friends of mine have had pitbulls for years and they are great dogs but he has had one go funny with old age.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
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- 20,978
I agree with your assessment, RWS. :thumbup:
If you think about it...ANY dog can bite a person out of fear or perceived danger.
It's easy to forget that a dog has a very keen sense of smell and can be easily motivated by those smells. They also have their own way of sensing danger - in ways that don't make sense to us.
Ever noticed that women spend a lot more time looking over their shoulders than guys do? I've been doing some thinking on this...women are often credited with a "sixth sense"...the uncanny ability to sense danger (physical or emotional). But I wonder if it's just that their (typically) smaller physiology makes them more vulnerable...so they're always "on guard" and "listening" to clues.
I think dogs are the same way - picking up on clues, etc.
In fact, I don't think either of the above have a "sixth sense" at all....it's just that as Men, we are completely devoid of this quality!! Blind as bats!
If you think about it...ANY dog can bite a person out of fear or perceived danger.
It's easy to forget that a dog has a very keen sense of smell and can be easily motivated by those smells. They also have their own way of sensing danger - in ways that don't make sense to us.
Ever noticed that women spend a lot more time looking over their shoulders than guys do? I've been doing some thinking on this...women are often credited with a "sixth sense"...the uncanny ability to sense danger (physical or emotional). But I wonder if it's just that their (typically) smaller physiology makes them more vulnerable...so they're always "on guard" and "listening" to clues.
I think dogs are the same way - picking up on clues, etc.
In fact, I don't think either of the above have a "sixth sense" at all....it's just that as Men, we are completely devoid of this quality!! Blind as bats!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 1999
- Messages
- 4,855
RWS,
Here's my story.
A few years ago when we lived deep in the woods, in an old logging camp, I had a similar problem. We had a big lab mix. He loved our family but was very agressive towards others. I tried hard to train him but to no avail. I kept him penned up in the yard or the house, but sometimes he would get loose. Then he would be chasing logging trucks up and down the road. I got a little laugh one day when some missionaries came to the door. My wife (at that time) opened it and then the dog took off after them. She barely got a hold on him and then told the missionaries that they'd better leave as she struggled to restrain him. They didn't come back.
Then one day he got out and I saw him chasing a little neighborhood girl on her bicycle. I had to come to terms with the fact that my many months of efforts to train him had failed, and that he was a danger to others.
The next morning I took him out to his favorite part of the forest. I dug his grave while he played in the woods, and then I called him to me and put a .357 bullet in his brain. He died wagging his tail.
That night I understood the scene in Macbeth where lady Macbeth washes her hands over and over. Killing my friend had a profound psychological effect, which was very evident in my dreams. I killed him with love for him in my heart, as I knew he was completely devoted to me and my family.
I've had dogs before and since. I have not had such a failure in training at any other time though. I was the stupid one, who could not show him the correct path. However, I couldn't wait for the time he might hurt an innocent.
You need to find your way. Only you know the whole situation. You've been given good (and sometimes harsh) advice from several perspectives in this thread. Best to humbly consider them all before deciding the right path in your unique situation.
Namaste.
Here's my story.
A few years ago when we lived deep in the woods, in an old logging camp, I had a similar problem. We had a big lab mix. He loved our family but was very agressive towards others. I tried hard to train him but to no avail. I kept him penned up in the yard or the house, but sometimes he would get loose. Then he would be chasing logging trucks up and down the road. I got a little laugh one day when some missionaries came to the door. My wife (at that time) opened it and then the dog took off after them. She barely got a hold on him and then told the missionaries that they'd better leave as she struggled to restrain him. They didn't come back.
Then one day he got out and I saw him chasing a little neighborhood girl on her bicycle. I had to come to terms with the fact that my many months of efforts to train him had failed, and that he was a danger to others.
The next morning I took him out to his favorite part of the forest. I dug his grave while he played in the woods, and then I called him to me and put a .357 bullet in his brain. He died wagging his tail.
That night I understood the scene in Macbeth where lady Macbeth washes her hands over and over. Killing my friend had a profound psychological effect, which was very evident in my dreams. I killed him with love for him in my heart, as I knew he was completely devoted to me and my family.
I've had dogs before and since. I have not had such a failure in training at any other time though. I was the stupid one, who could not show him the correct path. However, I couldn't wait for the time he might hurt an innocent.
You need to find your way. Only you know the whole situation. You've been given good (and sometimes harsh) advice from several perspectives in this thread. Best to humbly consider them all before deciding the right path in your unique situation.
Namaste.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2002
- Messages
- 3,229
The dog just did what it thought it had to for the sake of its family.
Spiral.
Spiral.
I wouldn't put him down yet if the dog has been trustworthy up until now. But be honest with yourself, does your dog have a history? Do you really trust it? If you think the answer to that is no, then you know what you need to do. Did you socialize your dog when it was younger? The fact that the dog has jumped at people randomly walking past it at a storefront is worrying. You must discipline it severely, and socialize it if it hasn't. It doesn't matter whether the dog was just doing what it thought was right or whatever, and I believe you know this as well. Intentions don't matter for a dog. A dog that lives in human society must learn to live by societies rules. If it cannot understand those rules, it needs to be put down.
You're right that the modern american pit bull terrier were bred for dog aggression, and not human. The lines are getting polluted and diluted with it's popularity, and some puppy mills and wild cards are being produced. The original bull dogs were used for bull baiting, later incarnations of the APBT were created for the dog fighting pits. They still make great pets though, and as a fighting breed, show a kind of devotion that's hard to find in other dogs. I have a Tosa, another purpose bred fighting breed. A Japanese fighting mastiff who's grandfather was a titled heavyweight champion. 153lbs of nothing but love for people. $4,500, and I love him to death but if it ever showed unwarranted aggression towards people, or bit someone, I'd do what needs to be done.
You're right that the modern american pit bull terrier were bred for dog aggression, and not human. The lines are getting polluted and diluted with it's popularity, and some puppy mills and wild cards are being produced. The original bull dogs were used for bull baiting, later incarnations of the APBT were created for the dog fighting pits. They still make great pets though, and as a fighting breed, show a kind of devotion that's hard to find in other dogs. I have a Tosa, another purpose bred fighting breed. A Japanese fighting mastiff who's grandfather was a titled heavyweight champion. 153lbs of nothing but love for people. $4,500, and I love him to death but if it ever showed unwarranted aggression towards people, or bit someone, I'd do what needs to be done.
Grappler1911
BANNED
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- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 720
Nothing personal guy,I can be blunt sometimes.
I get pissed when dogs are blamed for handler error.
Over 50,000 dogs a year pay with their lives because of it.
I can fix real killers.
Your dog just warned someone he felt a threat.
One punture is a warning.
Anyone who owns a working breed should learn how to handle,how to train.
Now what?
What the dog did do wrong was ignore comands.
Most dogs are untrained and even competition obedience dogs will fail to obey under extreme distraction.
"Protection,Police or Military dogs can not"
Now that you realize that you have a serious dog you need to work on obedience in drive."Obedience under extreme distraction"
The benifits are twofold.
One your dog will obey your commands when you really need him to obey.
Two you establish pack leadership.
The dog should be the lowest pack member.
This is enforced by ALL the family "pack" members taking part in training.
First off forget "positive only" clicker training.
Positive enforcement is good.
Consequences for actions however,are nessessary.
Time outs and stamping your feet will not solve your current problem.
Corrections are never giving for not understanding commands.
Blantantly ignoring you because of any reason must be nipped in the butt.
A sharp pop on a choke or prong collar simulates how dogs correct themselves.
In the begining of training NO COMMAND is giving without the dog on leash or long line with training collar on.
Later off leash training is "Proofed" with a electric collar, like a Dogtra.
Start with basic sit, down,heel,stay,leave it and place.
"Down Stay" starting out with no distractions building up to incredible acts of courage and disipline will build confidence in your dog and his trust in you and your judgement.
It also establishs pack leadership.
Examples would be "Down stay" with cats or ducks running around.
Kids,boats,trains,planes,give "stay" command and throw favorive toy,enforce command until "release" OK.
Part of what I do in training with my dogs and dogs sports such as ring sport and KNPV is the "Call off"
Dogs trained from birth to bite are required to stop inches before making contact with the decoy or badguy.
In KNPV the "Long distance call off" is done at 100 meters with a one meter call off.
These are dogs that live to bite,bred to bite and are cappable of POWERFUL full mouth bites and grips.
Books such as "Kohler's guide to guard dog training" will serve you much better than most of the modern new age fu fu training methods.
Dr. P's dog training and Leerburg have more free internet articles then you could read in a month.
P.S.
Dogs do not need a sixth sense.
They have heightened five senses.
The ability to smell stress hormones and read body language many times greater then our own, enables them to make judgements about people we might not understand.
Personally,I have doubts about anyone going door to door passing out religious
B.S or selling anything.
It's a basic way cons and criminals case your house.
I get pissed when dogs are blamed for handler error.
Over 50,000 dogs a year pay with their lives because of it.
I can fix real killers.
Your dog just warned someone he felt a threat.
One punture is a warning.
Anyone who owns a working breed should learn how to handle,how to train.
Now what?
What the dog did do wrong was ignore comands.
Most dogs are untrained and even competition obedience dogs will fail to obey under extreme distraction.
"Protection,Police or Military dogs can not"
Now that you realize that you have a serious dog you need to work on obedience in drive."Obedience under extreme distraction"
The benifits are twofold.
One your dog will obey your commands when you really need him to obey.
Two you establish pack leadership.
The dog should be the lowest pack member.
This is enforced by ALL the family "pack" members taking part in training.
First off forget "positive only" clicker training.
Positive enforcement is good.
Consequences for actions however,are nessessary.
Time outs and stamping your feet will not solve your current problem.
Corrections are never giving for not understanding commands.
Blantantly ignoring you because of any reason must be nipped in the butt.
A sharp pop on a choke or prong collar simulates how dogs correct themselves.
In the begining of training NO COMMAND is giving without the dog on leash or long line with training collar on.
Later off leash training is "Proofed" with a electric collar, like a Dogtra.
Start with basic sit, down,heel,stay,leave it and place.
"Down Stay" starting out with no distractions building up to incredible acts of courage and disipline will build confidence in your dog and his trust in you and your judgement.
It also establishs pack leadership.
Examples would be "Down stay" with cats or ducks running around.
Kids,boats,trains,planes,give "stay" command and throw favorive toy,enforce command until "release" OK.
Part of what I do in training with my dogs and dogs sports such as ring sport and KNPV is the "Call off"
Dogs trained from birth to bite are required to stop inches before making contact with the decoy or badguy.
In KNPV the "Long distance call off" is done at 100 meters with a one meter call off.
These are dogs that live to bite,bred to bite and are cappable of POWERFUL full mouth bites and grips.
Books such as "Kohler's guide to guard dog training" will serve you much better than most of the modern new age fu fu training methods.
Dr. P's dog training and Leerburg have more free internet articles then you could read in a month.
P.S.
Dogs do not need a sixth sense.
They have heightened five senses.
The ability to smell stress hormones and read body language many times greater then our own, enables them to make judgements about people we might not understand.
Personally,I have doubts about anyone going door to door passing out religious
B.S or selling anything.
It's a basic way cons and criminals case your house.
Hell, Grappler, we got Mormons, Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses and more going door to door. You can't bite them all.
You know, it's not just people and dogs, it's people and everything: stop signs with bullet holes give hunters a bad name, trails busted over off-limit meadows give ATV's a bad name, cars cutting you off in traffic give drivers a bad name....
In truth, human beings not taking responsibility for their actions.
In the case of pets, they have to pay for their owners decisions, and that's what gets you; we got it.
There would not be a thread here now if RWS was not taking responsibility.
Your suggestions about training sound valid to me.
munk
You know, it's not just people and dogs, it's people and everything: stop signs with bullet holes give hunters a bad name, trails busted over off-limit meadows give ATV's a bad name, cars cutting you off in traffic give drivers a bad name....
In truth, human beings not taking responsibility for their actions.
In the case of pets, they have to pay for their owners decisions, and that's what gets you; we got it.
There would not be a thread here now if RWS was not taking responsibility.
Your suggestions about training sound valid to me.
munk
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
- Messages
- 3,178
I have seen MWD's not only ignore commands, but bite the wrong person. (In one instance it was the handler, and it was serious enough that he was out of work for a few weeks.) I don't believe that they were insufficiently trained. I believe that they were overly excited.
Get a big dog that's bred for aggression and spin it up enough times, and that dog may just cross the line. It may be temporary and it may not be fatal, and the dog will probably feel bad about it afterwards, but no training is 100%...just like with people. And this is assuming that there are no other undiagnosed problems as was already mentioned -- a dog in a lot of pain of with brain damage can't be expected to behave as predictably as it would've been when healthy.
I will agree that some training is better than none and the ability to call off a dog is important, but even highly trained dogs occasionally fail to listen.
Get a big dog that's bred for aggression and spin it up enough times, and that dog may just cross the line. It may be temporary and it may not be fatal, and the dog will probably feel bad about it afterwards, but no training is 100%...just like with people. And this is assuming that there are no other undiagnosed problems as was already mentioned -- a dog in a lot of pain of with brain damage can't be expected to behave as predictably as it would've been when healthy.
I will agree that some training is better than none and the ability to call off a dog is important, but even highly trained dogs occasionally fail to listen.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2006
- Messages
- 4,409
I love dogs and animals generally. Training and breeding are huge when it comes to having a good relationship with your animal (for both human and dog).
But, I just wish to let a small breeze of hard reality blow into the conversation;
Several points -
1. Your dog is a pit bull, with all the bad press that brings with it, justified or unjustified;
2. Your dog has attacked someone, a stranger, who did nothing more than bring a pamphlet to your door;
3. We live in a litigious society, where blame often carries a VERY high price tag;
Can you afford to take the chance that another occurance might happen, perhaps with much worse consequences? And how would you explain to the judge, jury, victim that something similar had happened in the past, and you took no action?
I've had to put down two dogs, once due to age/infirmity, once due to aggressiveness. I hated it both times. Both times it was necessary.
Andy
But, I just wish to let a small breeze of hard reality blow into the conversation;
Several points -
1. Your dog is a pit bull, with all the bad press that brings with it, justified or unjustified;
2. Your dog has attacked someone, a stranger, who did nothing more than bring a pamphlet to your door;
3. We live in a litigious society, where blame often carries a VERY high price tag;
Can you afford to take the chance that another occurance might happen, perhaps with much worse consequences? And how would you explain to the judge, jury, victim that something similar had happened in the past, and you took no action?
I've had to put down two dogs, once due to age/infirmity, once due to aggressiveness. I hated it both times. Both times it was necessary.
Andy
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 311
I haven't seen this addressed here just yet, so I have to ask --
Did you cut his balls off yet? Not to sound insensitive, but a good friend of mine was worried about his 145 pound Rottweiller (who had a high prey drive), so he had him neutered. Really calmed the guy down a lot.
There might be options that no one has considered yet?
Did you cut his balls off yet? Not to sound insensitive, but a good friend of mine was worried about his 145 pound Rottweiller (who had a high prey drive), so he had him neutered. Really calmed the guy down a lot.
There might be options that no one has considered yet?
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 19,793
Munk, my friend, this is certainly a misnomer. You CAN bite them all if you're given enough time.
RWS. I feel your pain bro. Sorry I missed this thread for so long, but glad too. Idda said something bullish to ole grappler, and it woulda been over the line. Ahh being a Coo... um... Cajun.
Give him one more chance, and learn from this incident. I think extra training and ultra obedience is warranted.
I had a beagle that could never be trained not to bite. We had rescued him from some dumb drug user neighbor. He was a good dog in the woods, but bit me a lot. Leah was pregnant with Hannah at the time. I took him to a few trainers, good country trainers mind you, and while I'm no expert, I'm no dog newb. He still bit. Musta drawn my blood 50 times, but had never threatened the girls. Then one evening he bit Leah and drew her blood. I miss that dog.
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- Oct 19, 2005
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- 19,793
I hadn't considered that Munk. Still, thats no excuse. LOL.
Grappler1911
BANNED
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- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 720
Handler aggession,shyness those are problems genetic in nature and not easily fixed.
Fearbiters should be put down.
I haven't seen or evaluatated this dog but from what I read, that is not the problem.
Convaying the rules of engagement to an aggressive dog is much easier to do than fix a dog plain nuts.
You can't fix NUTS.
Any decient working dog would react like yours IF your kid had a fear reaction to this stranger.
Dogs look to the handlers.
You have the horsepower,now you need brakes.
Pitbulls are the least likely dogs to benifit from fixing.
Snipping usually helps in "Pack Rank" issues.
Not something associated with Pitbulls.
I bred APBT, did talk shows ect for many years.
Pitbulls,German,German Shepherds,Malinois,Rottweilers are WORK dogs.
They are NOT pets.
All dogs are cute and non aggressive as pups.
They grow up.
While their instinsts kick in "2 or 3" is the most dangerous time.
The owners need to be aware,work dogs are not lapdogs.
They need to be treated with respect.
They all have the potential to bite.
In reality the properly trained attack dog is less likely to bite the wrong person than the untrained working breed dog.
The trained dog has control and confidence.
The untrained dog is fearfull and unclear who and when it should bite.
If you want a lapdog that takes no responcability to own other than feeding,
there are many fine breeds out there.
This post is directed at no one person.
Just general BS.
Fearbiters should be put down.
I haven't seen or evaluatated this dog but from what I read, that is not the problem.
Convaying the rules of engagement to an aggressive dog is much easier to do than fix a dog plain nuts.
You can't fix NUTS.
Any decient working dog would react like yours IF your kid had a fear reaction to this stranger.
Dogs look to the handlers.
You have the horsepower,now you need brakes.
Pitbulls are the least likely dogs to benifit from fixing.
Snipping usually helps in "Pack Rank" issues.
Not something associated with Pitbulls.
I bred APBT, did talk shows ect for many years.
Pitbulls,German,German Shepherds,Malinois,Rottweilers are WORK dogs.
They are NOT pets.
All dogs are cute and non aggressive as pups.
They grow up.
While their instinsts kick in "2 or 3" is the most dangerous time.
The owners need to be aware,work dogs are not lapdogs.
They need to be treated with respect.
They all have the potential to bite.
In reality the properly trained attack dog is less likely to bite the wrong person than the untrained working breed dog.
The trained dog has control and confidence.
The untrained dog is fearfull and unclear who and when it should bite.
If you want a lapdog that takes no responcability to own other than feeding,
there are many fine breeds out there.
This post is directed at no one person.
Just general BS.
... or perhaps he possessed the curse of the undead... VAMPIRE DOG!
Eric
(Sorry for the sidetrack.)