Should the Kraton handle of a Trailmaster be replaced preventively?

[Ebbtide]

No sweat Ragnar. The post count was a hint.
But then again I lurked for months before my first post

Sounds like a wrist thong would be a good addition if one were to do 'heavy chopping'

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A wrist thong would prevent some of the more extreme events, but could also make some worse because you would yank a knife back towards you after it left the hand. Lack of handle security to that extent has significant detrimental effects on efficiency in general, the handle needs to be reshaped accordingly.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

I guess I should have said a wrist thong "properly used", eh?
Thank you for pointing that out cliff.
Where would we be without you?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can't "properly use" a wrist thong in that manner, the most the thong can do in regards to retention is when used as a wrap around the hand which adds pressure to enhance the grip. However this has pretty significant drawbacks and you still have problems such as lack of a pommel swell to drive from which makes a significant part of the power on heavy swings. You can get really abrasive grip tape which solves most of these problems, assuming your skin is tough enough to withstand the friction, but again that is a really poor way to design a handle. Grips such as used by Kirk are much more efficient at power transfer as well as ergonomics/security.

-Cliff

 

[sevenedges]

First of all, welcome to the forums. Your choice to replace the handles is the right one. I used to own a trailmaster about seven years ago and contemplated doing the same thing but never did. As Cliff mentioned as well as another formite is, that light chopping can and probably will lossen up your handle to the point that using the knife is nearly impossible. I didn't like the shape or size of the handle either for the reasons stated by Cliff. (Slipping) I had to use too much force just to grip the handle. Almost to the point of cramping because the handle was too small around. Resulting in wasted energy, and never feeling safe with other people in the area forward of the chopping direction. Also, must agree with Cliff again on the lanyard useage. I have always read that using a lanyard was a safe way to "control" your knife. Maybe for the person infront of you. "maybe" but not for you I never wanted to have a bowie leave my hand at hight speed and be attatched to my wrist, I can' beleive how many knife articles I've read and have either seen or read to do this. It just doesn't make sense to me. If you are using a folder over water or way off the groung ect. then I could see the fuctionality. Although I personally never use a lanyard. I f I'm cutting over water I grip tighter and take extra caution not to drop it. Anyway, if you replace that handle and you will have a much more reliable knife.:thumbup:

 

[Ebbtide]

Never mind.
This is pointless.

 

[db]

Maybe for the person infront of you. "maybe" but not for you I never wanted to have a bowie leave my hand at hight speed and be attatched to my wrist, I can' beleive how many knife articles I've read and have either seen or read to do this. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Huh? Maybe you could describe what you think proper use of a lanyard is.

 

[sevenedges]

Proper use of a lanyard? No, sorry I can't. Except for the reason I listed in my last post. What is the proper use of a lanyard?

 

[sevenedges]

ebbtide, not ganging up on you man. I just re-read all the posts in this thread and can see where it looks that way. Good luck with the 12 step program

 

[Ebbtide]

No worries sevenedges.
T'aint you.
But thank you...
I'm doing much better now


One could just loop the lanyard/thong over one's wrist.
Or, one could put the lanyard over one's wrist with a twist between the knife and hand to take up some slack.
Or one could hook the lanyard over one's thumb, run it down the back of the hand, and then grip the knife.

The ABS requiers lanyard/thongs on their competition knives, so maybe there is something to it.
I hear they know a thing or two.

 

[db]

There are many more people who know much more about useing lanyards than I do. Proper use will prevent your grip from slipping on the knife. Depending on your hand and your knife I think there is a few different ways to do that. Just loosely looping it over your hand isn't one of them. With most everything give a few different methods a try and see if one works best for you.
Here is another stick your hand through the loop, bring it up and through the thumb and finger around the back of the hand and into your grip. easier done than explained.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I had to use too much force just to grip the handle.

Yeah, that is what a lot of people miss, if the handle lacks inherent security the knife actually becomes a lot less efficient in use both due energy being wasted as it isn't transferred properly to the knife as well as during impact and of course just increased fatigue on the user.

If you are using a folder over water or way off the groung ect. then I could see the fuctionality.

For really small knives I attach a laynard as it keeps the knife visible and makes it easier to draw from the pocket, the Byrd Finch for example. Plus if you make them fairly decorative it also makes the knife less like a weapon as most people think that if something is "pretty" it isn't dangerous. That of course is pretty silly, but so are most of the misconceptions about weapons anyway. A small pair of sissors is a restricted weapon but a two foot heavy metal ruler is perfectly fine.

The ABS requiers lanyard/thongs on their competition knives, so maybe there is something to it.

There is a difference between using something as a safety device and using it as the only source of functionality. The ABS members are indeed probably aware of that, the ones that I talked to like Kirk are anyway, whose knives I have extensively used and whose handles are not rod tapered for that reason.

Proper use will prevent your grip from slipping on the knife.

You can indeed lash your hand to a handle with a piece of rope, no serious tool however is so designed. Even beyond the obvious that you are now enforcing the force requirements on the grip to come through your hand from an outside constraint, for a lot of wood working you are also changing grips frequently and thus you would not want a handle which forced one position. Give a fillet knife to a fisherman with a really slick handle and when he complains that the handle isn't functional tell him to lash it to his hand with a straight face and see what he says. The same of course goes for any tool, knife or otherwise, the handle should be properly designed to give the required retention and allow optimal force transfer from the user to the knife. A laynard isn't a substitute for proper grip design.

-Cliff

 

[db]

the handle should be properly designed to give the required retention and allow optimal force transfer from the user to the knife. A laynard isn't a substitute for proper grip design.

-Cliff

Just how is a factory going to mass produce a knife that has a proper grip design for every user?
Ebbtide where do I sign up for the 12 step program?

 

[Ebbtide]

I mentioned the lanyard and proper use of one in response to the comment about the knife coming out of the users hand.
Then the discussion veered towards proper handle design.
So going back to the original knife in the OP, the safety of the so called poor handle design could be improved by using a lanyard/thong.

Now I have to go back and redo step one.
db, I'll email you the info and how to do the secret handshake.
But first you have to make this face:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Just how is a factory going to mass produce a knife that has a proper grip design for every user?

The same way all such products are made, there is a branch of science which deals with such issues which is based on the fact that the human hand has fundamental characteristics. A few years back I discussed such a problem with an engineer who did such research and worked for example on knives used on shellfish. It isn't just a hand issue, there are corrosponding areas outside of ergonomics, the same guy also studied aspects of hosptial bed design to make them easier to operate.

There is some interesting discussion of some of the issues specific to handles on Mission's website where they note that to make their handle more general to a wider grip size they made it less contoured than McClung's which has a fairly dramatic shape. This is one of the fundamental problems when working with large populations, do you go for highest performance, maximum average performance, highest minimums, etc. .

Regardless of how you choose to optimize there are always basic common starting points. Note for example with larger chopping blades the commonality of end flairs on the handle. Fisk talked about that particular aspect years ago here on Bladeforums and how it influenced chopping ability. Essentially it allows a greater component of rotational energy in the swing. You can get the same thing if you make the handle extremely abrasive, in the short term anyway, but that has fairly obvious drawbacks which is why it is never found on long standing designs.

The same aspect will be seen on any similar (used in a wide sense) tool. Note the end flairs on axe handles and hammer handles for example. The same aspect is used even in hunters/fillet blades by Wilson which are not chopping tools but the handle design draws on essentially the same principles of force transfer. Swaim discussed this on rec.knives many years ago during a review of fillet blades as it (handle security) was one of the aspects he evaluated.

I mentioned the lanyard and proper use of one in response to the comment about the knife coming out of the users hand.

Suggesting a laynard implies a similar level solution (which it isn't) unless otherwise constrained, i.e., note that it is simply a bandaid or hack solution to "make due" until the problem is actually solved. Like all such measures it has fairly severe limitations as otherwise there would be no need for the actual solutions. In this specific case ABS guys like Kirk can forget about all the contouring they do on handles and just attach a laynard - obviously absurd.

-Cliff

 

[sevenedges]

Cliff, What is rod tapered? Maybe I've been away from the forums for a little too long, but I've really never heard this expression before. And I'm not Cliff's brother or anything but again, I have to agree. you need a handle to fit your hand, rather than relying on a cord to "glue" it in place. This is obviously a problem when buying a knife online when you haven't been able to handle it in person before hand. I want to buy a Busse Fusion Battle Mistress LE, but if it doesn't work out right for my hand when I get it I will be a little more than dissapointed. However this is the chance you sometimes have to take. Also, even handling a knife in person in a store isn't always enough. Especially when it comes to chopping size knives. Due to the fact that until you chop with it for a while you don't really know where or if the knife will abrade or pinch the hand or the overall feel. Youcan however rule out some knives just by holding them or even looking at pics. The Busse looks O.K. in this regard but I guess I'll have to drop 700.00 to find out. The aftermarket will be there if it doesn't work out.

 

[Ebbtide]

So going back to the original knife in the OP, the safety of the so called poor handle design could be improved by using a lanyard/thong.

No mention of a level solution, nor substitute for proper design.
A safety device added to the existing handle...of the knife that Ragnar02 already owns.
No more no less.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, What is rod tapered?

Little or no sculpting, basically a rod.

And I'm not Cliff's brother or anything but again, I have to agree. you need a handle to fit your hand, rather than relying on a cord to "glue" it in place.

This should be rather obvious, imagine if someone noted that they bought a pair of boots which were too large and asked about people who do leather work to address this and it was suggested that he just lash them tightly to his feet. It is the same solution, and equally absurd in either case.

-Cliff

 

[EDCeeker]

A safety device added to the existing handle...of the knife that Ragnar02 already owns.
No more no less.

Yes, and all Cliff's saying, if I'm reading it correctly, is that it's not a very good solution and might be, in fact, dangerous to the user.

I have read of the uses of lanyards in enhancing/enforcing the gripping of a knife, and how the use of a lanyard can be used to improve the transfer of force. But ISTM all of these assume a proper grip in the first place, do they not? These methods are not designed to (attempt to) compensate for a poor grip, much-less a grip on something that may come apart during use.

I would hate to have a knife go flying out of my hand during strenuous use. But I don't think I'd want it swinging violently on the end of something--the other end of which was securely tethered to me, either!

 

[GibsonFan]

If the handles suck that badly I doubt that CS would continue to make them after all these years.

I believe they continue to use these handles because it's a very cost-effective, non-labor-intensive way to build them. You're probably right that relatively few TM handles have actually come loose, but one is too many, in my eyes. My TM is being rehandled, as seen at SunriseCustomKnives, for all the reasons stated above. This thread is relevant, as well: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436912

Incidentally, when I cut the Kraton off mine, I found that the brass guard wasn't soldered on. It was sort of wedged in place with steel shims on either side of the tang; the shims were then tack-welded in place. This is probably a labor-saving thing, too. I don't think it's a big problem as far as durability, just something that caught my eye.

Like others, I also have a CS Master Hunter, the handle of which is made the same way. I've had no complaints with it, it is a MUCH better design. Feels very secure in my hand. However, I still feel uneasy about moisture building up underneath the rubber... if I ever finish my dang TM project, I want to do the same thing to the MH so they match, and copy the original shape and guard.