Should the Kraton handle of a Trailmaster be replaced preventively?

[Cliff Stamp]

If the handles suck that badly I doubt that CS would continue to make them after all these years.

P.T. Barnum's ideal customer. Salesmen are always looking out for your best interest.

... is that it's not a very good solution and might be, in fact, dangerous to the user.

Yes, it would not be sensible to advocate lashing an insecure grip to you hand.

But ISTM all of these assume a proper grip in the first place, do they not?

Yes, otherwise why put grips on knives, just leave bare tands and use laynards.

I would hate to have a knife go flying out of my hand during strenuous use. But I don't think I'd want it swinging violently on the end of something--the other end of which was securely tethered to me, either!

You would hope that would be immediately obvious.

I believe they continue to use these handles because it's a very cost-effective, non-labor-intensive way to build them.

Slab handles are used for the same reason, similar for many low performance grinds, simplistic heat treatments (no oil/cold), etc. .

However, I still feel uneasy about moisture building up underneath the rubber...

This was noted on the HI forum in a rehandle project. If you are going to use rubber then use it in a solid form which bonds directly to the tang like the Swamp Rat series. You can loosen them in heavy work as well which surprised me but I saw it done. It takes a lot of chopping, batoning and prying though and they are fully covered under warrenty anyway.

-Cliff

 

[rifon2]

deleted
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[GibsonFan]

Slab handles are used for the same reason (production cost concerns, this parenthesis added by GF), similar for many low performance grinds, simplistic heat treatments (no oil/cold), etc.

Agreed. This is, in not a small way, why small producers and custom makers command and usually deserve higher prices for their knives. And also why guys like me buy good factory knives and make them better. Luckily, the handle is easy to replace; in the case of the TM I feel the grind, steel and heat-treat are superlative, so it's worth the effort.

It's easy to say, from my end, that it wouldn't cost all that much to radically improve the handle, but that might mean a few grand less profit for the manufacturer every year. Sad, innit? But they do have staffs and crew to pay, let's not forget that many people are feeding their kids with the money they earn on the factory floor machining production knives.

I still say the TM is worth every penny, IF you're aware of the problems with the handle and are willing to accept them, or correct them.

If you are going to use rubber then use it in a solid form which bonds directly to the tang like the Swamp Rat series. You can loosen them in heavy work as well which surprised me but I saw it done. It takes a lot of chopping, batoning and prying though and they are fully covered under warrenty anyway.-Cliff

I'm curious, can you explain how the Swamp Rat rubber handles are bonded to the tang?

 

[Ebbtide]

I can only go by my own experiences.
I do not use violent or full power chopping motions with my cutting tools.
My father is an old world carpenter/woodworker and he always taught me to let the tool do the work.
When he would work (he's 98 now) he made it all seem effortless.
Firm, precise chops or strikes with the ax or hammer.
(he never ruined a saw either...I still have them)

Brute force doesn't make up for skill.
Skill is learned, brute force is applied.
A man can make the same mistake for years and call it experience.

Now if we are going to discuss handle design, sure the CSTM could be better.
But that's what the OP already owns.
The boot analogy is nonsense, since the knife was already purchased.


As far as PT Barnum's favorite customer...you forget I have 30 years in the advertising biz...and add to that I didn't buy the knife...the OP did.

That knife, with that handle is fine for the average knife buyer.
We, here, are not the average knife buyers.

cliff is so far from average that he has a niche all his own.

Rehandle the knife?
Sure.
Keep it as is?
Sure.
(Properly) Use a lanyard?
Good idea.

Buy a better knife?
One that is made for you?
Absolutely.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Firm, precise chops or strikes with the ax or hammer.

As was noted several times in the above, the shape of a handle directly effects the precision and control and a handle such as on the Trailmaster limits performance in both areas which is why handles on axes are not similar. There is also no support for the arguement that a user who is capable of heavy force is also not capable of being very skilled.

It is also obvious that knives with large inertial moments are designed to allow the generation of a large amount of power. This is why there were axes heads of varying weights as it would be very inefficient to use a chopping tool which only utilized a small fraction of the power of the user. This would be the same as if you picked up a knife/axe and it made you lose 75% of your strength.

Yes you use the tool with less than maximal force on most occasions (outside of test cutting / emergency) because otherwise both precision and of course endurance would suffer. However there are lots of individuals who can exert very heavy force even with a lot of skill. The test cutting Fikes does in his DVD is an example of such.

Brute force doesn't make up for skill.

Raw physical ability can easily outshadow skill and experience if the gap is large enough. This is why there are weight/sex classes in sports because they are trying to showcase skill and thus pair individuals of similar physical ability. I for example spent some time a few years back showing my nephew how to use an axe. Regardless of his skill level though he could not approach the level of performance of a normal adult with an axe because there was just so much of a difference in their strength. The same of course hold across adults of varying strengths.

Watch for example the Stihl series and note Dale Ryan has commented that even though he is quite skilled and very fast, he lacks the sheer power of guys like Dion Lane and is thus at a severe disadvantage for the chopping and sawing. The strength of the user also changes the nature of the tools which would be selected. A stronger individual can pull a heavier and more aggressive saw. Now of course in actual use you don't use a saw or axe with the same intensity that you do in a race but the same generalities hold.

You will see this for example in the HI forums as individuals will gradually switch to heavier and longer khukuris after years of use, they grow stronger and can thus benefit from a tool which can utilize the greater force. As Possum has noted there are also many occasions where full force is used, and given some cases far more than normal full force given an excited mental state.

cliff is so far from average that he has a niche all his own.

You complain about how threads turn into discussions about me but constantly direct them to that end instead of focusing on the knives. As always the misdirection ignores facts. As I have noted on several occasions, I was not the primary user of the Trailmaster, it loosed through woodcraft by my brother who is of average strength for an active individual who works in a physical job, he is a carpenter.

There are also lots of individuals of various trades who would routinely subject knives to far greater stress, the tactical community as an obvious example. Back to me though since again you brough it up, the force I used when wood cutting is not significantly above average for any normal individual who is so active. In fact all of my tools are usually heavily reground to allow them to function under less force.

Even my heavy wood choppers are about 15 degrees at a micro-bevel at the edge. So it is kind of absurd to argue that I lack skill and precision when my knives have far lower cross sections than the vast majority of production and even custom knives. There are few individuals who use knives which are thinner than mine so if anything you would argue the exact opposite of your claim.

.. in the case of the TM I feel the grind, steel and heat-treat are superlative, so it's worth the effort.

Yeah, it is a very solid design. Most bowies of that size, the production ones anyway, have full slab handles which are not as efficient as cutting tools for balnce issues. I personally don't want such fine a point on wood craft large knives but that isn't such a large issue it would cause me to reject the knife.

I'm curious, can you explain how the Swamp Rat rubber handles are bonded to the tang?

I'll see if I can't track down some of the details, the tang has an inherent geometrical bond. It is a very nice grip, I would prefer it readily over micarta slabs. Even though micarta is way more cut resistant, I prefer the shock and temperature resistance of the rubber and it is actually cheaper.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

Your example, competitive woodcutters, already have the skill or they wouldn't be at that level.
Now for example, try using a very strong individual that never used an axe, saw or hammer.
That is the difference.
Skill comes first. After you have the skill the power comes easy(er).
My BIL laid down the plywood decks on alot of Manhattan's sky scrapers.
He could put a 4-5" nail thru the plywood and into the stringers with one tap (to set the nail) and 2 thumps to drive it down flush. Many times one thump. I've seen him lay decking for a floor...he makes it look easy.
Plenty of power, but the skill came first.

Cliff, in my previous post I agreed with everything you said about the knife in question.
Yet you insist on going on and on with finding fault instead of attempting to understand.
We went from that particular knife and what the OP should do about the handle on the knife that he already bought.
We agreed that he should replace it if he felt that strongly about it.
Then your discussion changed to handle design.
I agreed with you that the design could be better.
You brought up the knife flying out of your brother's hand.
I recommended a thong/lanyard.
You said they are no substitute for a poorly designed handle.
I agreed, but since the OP already owns the knife, he could use a thong/lanyard (properly) and it would give him peace of mind and a measure of safety
Then we went back to handle design and with a proper design a thong wouldn't be necessary and I agreed with you there.

If I didn't know better I'd think you just like to argue...I mean discuss.

My comment about you having a niche all your own is about you and how you use knives. You are not an average user. You are nowhere near an average user.

That was not a disparaging remark.

You do things with knives that alot of average knife users would never dream of.
You do things that full time knife users would never dream of.
You are the bf blade tester, not an average guy.

 

[db]

Are well and poor designed handles safer with a properly used lanyard? I think they both are and get the feeling some don't agree.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Your example, competitive woodcutters, already have the skill or they wouldn't be at that level.

There are many levels, some of the competitions are novice class, often times the individuals don't even own the saws/axes and just borrow one. In those events you will again see individuals with extreme physical ability be able to compensate for very low skill. The chopping pattern with be heavily staircased for example but the sheer power behind the swings gives massive penetration. As noted the exact same effect carries into all levels of competition.

Now for example, try using a very strong individual that never used an axe, saw or hammer.
That is the difference.
Skill comes first.

The ability of an individual to perform such a task depends on both the physical ability and the skill, if either is lacking then the task suffers. As a simple experiment, take your favorite chopping tool and now make it 10 times as heavy and see how this effects your efficiency. This of course is the exact same thing as making you 10 times as weak.

I know many master carpenters who no one would argue were not skilled but at some point in their career they would easily be outperformed at many tasks simply because of lack of physical ability and yes even by a complete novice. There are of course some tasks which are more dependent on skill (making intricate steps) and some which are more dependent on simple brute force (digging post holes in frozen ground).

There was actually an interesting experiment of this nature which was showcased on the discovery channel a few years back. They took an outdoors novice with extreme physical ability (endurance athlete), a survial expert (much older), and a native (much older still). They competed in a race across the native's land. They all finished within a very short period of time of each other (the race was days and the finish times were hours about). The athletes extreme physical ability readily compensated for absolutely no skill and he even had to take a day off because his feet were severely blistered.

Now of course he would have benefited from more skill but the other people would just have readily have seen benefit from more strength/endurace. What was interesting was that you had basically pure physical ability, half and half, and basically pure skill and it all produced about the same total ability showing that for that one task, the two attributes were of similar importance. Of course for other situations where could be a different weighting for skill and physical ability.

It takes little physical ability for example to do most intricate wood working but it takes a massive amount to do significant logging. Regardless of skill it takes a fair amount of strength to shoulder and carry a several hundred pound log. Yes skill helps, so does a lot of strength. You lack either and the log doesn't move, the move of one you have the less of the other you need. There of course is nothing stopping you from having both and you will gain both if you do something and pay attention and think about the process a little.

I agreed, but since the OP already owns the knife, he could use a thong/lanyard (properly) and it would give him peace of mind and a measure of safety

My point is that it would not for several reasons as I noted in the above, that isn't what laynards are used to do. If you were absolutely forced to use the knife in an emergency situation then you could make an arguement for a direct hand lashing via laynard but you can rehandle the Trailmaster in about five minutes with plastic bags for example so there is little need to tie a knife onto your hand if the grip is lacking.

You do things with knives that alot of average knife users would never dream of.

Again you do exactly what you complain about, turn a thread into a discussion about me. In this case specifically I was not even the primary user of the knife but still you attempt to make my habits the focus of the discussion. The vast majority of what I write about and do are simple EDC tasks. A small minority of the work I have done (single digit percent) is above average (if you ignore survival / emergency / tactical / tradesmen, etc.) and using that to imply characteristics about the work as a whole or the user is just absurd.

-Cliff

 

[Ebbtide]

OK cliff.

I still stand on my comments about brute force not being a substitute for skill.
But as I said in the beginning of post #44 "I can only go by my own experiences"

Again you do exactly what you complain about, turn a thread into a discussion about me. In this case specifically I was not even the primary user of the knife but still you attempt to make my habits the focus of the discussion.

Ummmmm no.
I was attempting to define average knife buyer/user, as opposed to average bladeforums knife buyer/user and you. You, the bf knifetester, who uses charts, graphs and has a website dedicated to your testing work.
I'm not ignoring any of your work or focusing on the dramatic. Just stating that you are not the average knife buyer/user that makes up Cold Steel's market share.
Nor are you the average bladeforums knife user.

3 levels of knife user.

CS markets to the average knife buyer/user. That's why the handle on the TM is fine (for them), and unchanged for all this time.

And by the way, the average knife user defination, and reason for said defination, came in response to your PT Barnum comment.

The fact that you took that comment (having a niche of your own) as a slam/dig/deragatory comment (or that I'm spinning the thread to be about you) just shows that you don't read to understand, comprehend or with empathy, but read to find holes in the 'arguement' and have a predetermined conclusion already in mind.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The fact that you took that comment (having a niche of your own) as a slam/dig/deragatory comment (or that I'm spinning the thread to be about you) just shows that you don't read to understand, comprehend or with empathy, but read to find holes in the 'arguement' and have a predetermined conclusion already in mind.

A comment was made about results I described with the Trailmaster and you in short order turned the thread into a discussion about me. Saying I am not an averge user is not an insult of course. In some cases it is logical to note issues of this type, such as for example someone like Clark finding fault in initial sharpness of a knife. A point could be made that he discriminates much more than most.


However in this case you ignored the actual source of the information was just an average knife user who doesn't have a website (how that makes a difference is beyond me) and is just an average tradesperson. Your entire arguement is without basis and 100% founded on preconcieved misconceptions. But even if I was the primary user it would never be relevant to bring up what I do in general but only what was done with that particular knife.

This again is just another attempt to shift the thread to a general meta-discussion of my reviews and methods. As always you then step back and complain that the thread was sidetracked and somehow became about me. Here is a suggestion, if at all possible, actually focus on the knives, don't interject comments about me and you will find that the thread will not have a reason to diverge.

As for the Barnum comment, it is completely farcical at the highest level of absurdity to imply at any level that continued use of a design/material by a company preclues the fact that it is inherently flawed which you clearly did here :

"If the handles suck that badly I doubt that CS would continue to make them after all these years."

This is exactly what the Barnum's of this world want customers to believe, that they would of course never continue making a flawed product or sell a product which would be harmful to the customers if they of course were aware of such issues.

-Cliff

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Think about this: what does old rubber look like? What does almost any semi-flexible material do in time? It degrades. It hardens. It cracks. Sometimes it softens. I'm not saying a material has not been made that will stay in a semi-elastic state, but most sure don't!
Bill

 

[Kyp Degal]

I almost didn't post here, because it's not really my place. First off, though, Ragnar, I hope the re-handling goes well.

Now, Cliff and Ebbtide. I personally think GibsonFan's signature line put's it perfectly: Arguing online is like competing in the Special Olympics... even if you win, you're still a retard. Maybe not quite PC, but it's right. It is quite simply childish to continue such a pointless argument. Especially here, of all places, in a thread a new member to the forums posted asking for simple advice. Take it to the Whine & Cheese forum. There was plenty of good advice given here, by each of you, and by several more members, but it seems the original poster's decision has been reached. Nearly the last two pages of this thread are just the two of you pointlessly dithering away.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put anyone down here. Cliff, I've read many of your posts here on BF, and find them extremely informative. I also visit your website frequently, as there is a wealth of information there. You are obviously very knowledgeable when it comes to knives and such things. Ebbtide, I haven't seen as many of your posts, so I can't say much there. But here, it seems to me, that Ebbtide was merely trying to help the original poster by suggesting a lanyard as a viable aid, and Cliff, a bit bluntly, expressed that this wasn't at all viable. Somehow this started an argument. Now, Ebbtide has tried to steer the discussion back on topic at least twice that I can determine, but Cliff seems to continue to take the least comment personally, as with Ebbtide's mention of average knife users vs. Cliff. This is completely uncalled for. I was always taught that if you didn't have anything nice/polite to say, don't say anything. You're both (AFAIK) reasonable adults, so act like it. I just hope that Ragnar hasn't been scared off of his own thread by your inane postings. Hopefully someone just needs some sleep or something... I know I do.

I usually wouldn't have even posted, but I was a bit disturbed by this. (As you might notice) I know I probably didn't word it perfectly, but I'm not the most eloquent person, and I apologize.


[End Rant]

Josh

 

[Ebbtide]

Thank you for speaking up Kyp. Your observations are welcome, and please continue to participate. Maybe in other threads...


I thought this thread was over when it sat idle for 6 days.
Maybe it's over now :yawn:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Arguing online is like competing in the Special Olympics... even if you win, you're still a retard.

It is easily possible to have a productive discussion on the internet even when there is serious contention. Witness for example Hob's recent comments on dynamic balance in the reviews form where he quite bluntly not only said that I was wrong, but said that you could not even define the terms I used as they didn't even exist as physical representations.

The discussion was continued by myself, Hob and possum among others and even though there was significant contention and yes much of it was very blunt it stayed on topic of the issue of balance and how it is relevant to knives. Note that in that case there was no discussion of the individuals by the others but instead a focus on what they said and not who said it.

Note that most discussions online can be viewed in threaded modes where the discussion is broken up according to who is replied to and thus you can follow branches of the conversation. Unfortunately most discussion forums set linear to the default which is a poor way to view conversations as you don't actually talk that way in real life when a group of people are debating an issue.

The reply is appreciated and I'll reread over this thread and the posts I made to the effect you noted.

-Cliff