SiC stone help, opinions and theories thread.

Strigamort said:
HH and David, would it help at all for me to share some pics?

The reason why I thought it was sic was because I had just looked at a sic stone at True Value and it looked the same, dark grey and almost black front/back. I looked up the Ace stone on their website and it looks the same as mine (packaging is completely different though) and it says alox.

I'm so confused! :D
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This pic is a snip from one of Norton's online catalogs. The packaged stone labelled '87933' is what the older 6" AlOx stone from HD looked like. The one to the right of it, labelled as '87935' is what the equivalent SiC (Crystolon) stone looks like. The larger 8" stone at the left (87934) is also AlOx. This pretty clearly shows the color differences with the Norton stones, anyway. The newer SiC version at HD is still catalogued and labelled as the '87933' stone, even though it should no longer be in AlOx. Clear as mud, right?? :D

I'd assume that if your stone is actually labelled as AlOx, it likely is. AlOx can be found in a variety of colors, so even if it looks darker, I'd assume the labelling should(?) ID it correctly. Norton has reassured me that the Crystolon stones will always be very dark, due to the natural color of the abrasive itself, as it's manufactured.


David
 
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Well that's the problem. It's not labled at all. No grit or composition listed on the package. :) I'm going to cross reference the part number on their site.

Brb ...
 
They list the 6" stone as alox. It is a lot cheaper than the $14 I payed for mine. The 8" on their site is $14 but again, they don't list the specs or country of manufacture. I'm going to go ahead and believe it's alox. Bummer because (regardless of their similarities) I've been wanting a sic stone for a long time. The sic stone across the street was (I think) about $1 more and I just grabbed this one out of convenience.

I guess it was stupid to buy it without knowing for sure. They have a satisfaction guarantee, but it's not their fault I screwed up.

Oh well. This will collect dust while I use my diamond stones until I can find a good sic stone.

As always, thanks for your help guys!
 
I'm struck by your pic of the Ace stone. It looks a LOT like equivalent stones from Norton, and I can't help but wonder if maybe Ace contracted Norton to produce it for them. That also makes me wonder if the Ace stone has gone down the same path, marketing-wise. Maybe evolved from AlOx to SiC, but the online listings and/or advertising/labelling haven't caught up yet (this is how Norton explained the confusion around their Economy stone, when I asked them if it was actually AlOx or not).

Just speculating, but it does make me wonder... :cool:


David
 
HeavyHanded said:
I'm not sure if a pic would help much - maybe...

I saw that ACE had a 6" stone listed as AlumOx and none listed as SiC, but having the two of them side by side made it easy to see the difference. When I tried to find out what they carried, all I could get was the identical description of stones with several price points. Why different pricing and different product numbers if they're the same item? (21160 / 21163). 21160 looks a lot lighter in color. Sadly, the larger outfits don't seem to care much about accurate product descriptions for sub 10.00 sharpening stones - even Norton had to be given a head's up...
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Yes, I've seen this in my neighborhood harware stores and no one has been able to answer that question. (Why one is priced higher than the other one?) So, I suspect you have a point of it's different material. These Norton economy stones do seem a bit looser packed grains than my older Norton premuim stones. I think one store has both and not so in the other as these stones have been on the shelf for years. DM
 
HeavyHanded said:
I'm not sure if a pic would help much - maybe...

I saw that ACE had a 6" stone listed as AlumOx and none listed as SiC, but having the two of them side by side made it easy to see the difference. When I tried to find out what they carried, all I could get was the identical description of stones with several price points. Why different pricing and different product numbers if they're the same item? (21160 / 21163). 21160 looks a lot lighter in color. Sadly, the larger outfits don't seem to care much about accurate product descriptions for sub 10.00 sharpening stones - even Norton had to be given a head's up...
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David Martin said:
Yes, I've seen this in my neighborhood harware stores and no one has been able to answer that question. (Why one is priced higher than the other one?) So, I suspect you have a point of it's different material. These Norton economy stones do seem a bit looser packed grains than my older Norton premuim stones. I think one store has both and not so in the other as these stones have been on the shelf for years. DM
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This is very interesting to me, because it's the same sort of confusion that prompted me to ask Saint-Gobain (Norton's owner) about the 87933/87935 stones listed in their online catalog. I had asked them originally, if the 87933 'Economy' stone (priced at ~ $6.00) was AlOx or Crystolon (and they said Crystolon). Then, I asked them why the 87935 stone (listed in the catalog as Crystolon) was priced significantly higher (think it was $20.00 or more), though apparently the exact same size & material as the $6.00 'Economy' stone (they didn't give a clear answer to this, and seemed as confused by it as I was). Seeing the same apparent confusion with the two Ace stones really does make me wonder if all of them are sourced from Norton in the first place, along with all the accompanying documentation snafus.

Now the wheels are really beginning to spin in my head (again)... :confused:


David
 
Spin away! A lot of MY problems are down to YOUR postings as I find them kind of fascinating. :D

I'm still going to assume that my stone is alox. I don't really have a reason other than the description for their less expensive 6" stone.

Are there a lot of manufacturers in the US? I'm guessing there are, but I guess it's something for a lead. When I looked at the TV stone (it was listed as SiC on the packaging) it looked exactly the same as the stone I bought across the street at ACE. Both were made for their label by an unknown manufacturer in the US. My thought when I saw them was "I bet these are Norton stones". Of course that means nothing at all. :D
 
I just compared my older Norton JUM-3 (a 2007 mfg.) to those in the above photo and it looks closer in color to the one in the middle. Mine is a SiC stone and it states it on the box. So, I wonder how much weight do we place on color? DM
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
This is very interesting to me, because it's the same sort of confusion that prompted me to ask Saint-Gobain (Norton's owner) about the 87933/87935 stones listed in their online catalog. I had asked them originally, if the 87933 'Economy' stone (priced at ~ $6.00) was AlOx or Crystolon (and they said Crystolon). Then, I asked them why the 87935 stone (listed in the catalog as Crystolon) was priced significantly higher (think it was $20.00 or more), though apparently the exact same size & material as the $6.00 'Economy' stone (they didn't give a clear answer to this, and seemed as confused by it as I was). Seeing the same apparent confusion with the two Ace stones really does make me wonder if all of them are sourced from Norton in the first place, along with all the accompanying documentation snafus.

Now the wheels are really beginning to spin in my head (again)... :confused:


David
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I don't think they (ACE) is getting them from Norton. The one thing that is clearly marked, and is also on the Sears Craftsman stones that are identical in every respect - made in USA. I do not think Norton manufacturers any vitreous abrasives in USA anymore. I also have to think if it is dark it probably is SIC, but then again.... My old Vermont American stone appeared dark grey as well, probably about as light as the Norton Econo stone - under magnification they look very different.
And so to Strigamort - don't toss it without using it. My India stone (AlumOx) cuts most steels faster and cleaner than my cheap SiC stones. You likely won't know the difference till you have a go at some of the more expensive metals.

ETA, I cut my Vermont American Alumox stone into a canoe shape and it does a fantastic job on mid to lower RC steels (brush clearing tools, hatchets, machetes), better than the cheaper SIC stones. Its also the first vitreous stone I was able to shave facial stubble right off the stone with a stainless knife, so even the cheaper ALumOx can be very useful, especially to cut your chops learning to freehand.
 
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Ah okay, I thought Norton stones were made here. On the other hand my stone came in (what may be) the old packaging and was covered in dust. The ACE that I bought it from was in a tiny town and the store was really old. You know the type... Mom and pop brick and mortars.

Let me ask you guys this. How is the SiC economy Norton stone compared to the premium? I've seen bluntcuts video and figured I'd skip the economy, but I'd like a second opinion. I'll need to stop in at the HD in my neighboring town. It's a much bigger store than the one by me. Maybe they'll have the premium stone.

Edit- btw, thanks for your last post HH. Makes me feel a little better about this stone. I have tried it for flat grinding a small Sloyd blade that I made but the blade pretty much skips on the surface of the coarse side. It's been really difficult to grind that blade down on anything though. Even coarse diamond. I'm thinking I may not have tempered the blade enough, but that's a topic for another thread.
 
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David Martin said:
I just compared my older Norton JUM-3 (a 2007 mfg.) to those in the above photo and it looks closer in color to the one in the middle. Mine is a SiC stone and it states it on the box. So, I wonder how much weight do we place on color? DM
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In the email correspondence I had with the Norton (Saint-Gobain) people, they did say that the AlOx stones varied widely in color. Sometimes the abrasives themselves are different colors (brown, grey, blue, pink, white, etc.), and then the binders also influence what the finished stones look like, especially if used with white AlOx. BUT, they did emphasize that with their own Crystolon stones, the base SiC abrasive itself is naturally very dark (almost black), so that would limit how much color variation might be seen in those. I'd think the density/concentration of the SiC would have to be very low in a given finished stone, for the binder colors to significantly alter the color of it.


David
 
David, can you answer my question above? I'm not sure if you have experience with both stones, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

I'll pick up an economy stone if you think it's a good choice. When I say good choice I mean close enough to the premium stone to not worry about tracking one down, or ordering one online.

Basically I'd like to skip another mistake. I'll pay a bit more for a better stone if it makes sense to do so. I may even consider having whichever stone is get cut for edge pro blanks. I'm looking for good reprofiling ability, low mud output and decent finishing ability. It doesn't have to get near polishing, but a step before 800 or 1200 grit would be ideal.
 
Strigamort said:
David, can you answer my question above? I'm not sure if you have experience with both stones, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

I'll pick up an economy stone if you think it's a good choice. When I say good choice I mean close enough to the premium stone to not worry about tracking one down, or ordering one online.

Basically I'd like to skip another mistake. I'll pay a bit more for a better stone if it makes sense to do so. I may even consider having whichever stone is get cut for edge pro blanks. I'm looking for good reprofiling ability, low mud output and decent finishing ability. It doesn't have to get near polishing, but a step before 800 or 1200 grit would be ideal.
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I only have the SiC Economy stone, but not the premium. How those two compare, I can't say. I'm pretty sure HeavyHanded has both of them though, and I think he has posted/commented on differences between them. I'll search a bit and see if I can find some of his comments.

The SiC Economy stone is probably the best 'cheap' stone (relating to the cost) I've seen, however. Works much more aggressively (faster) than any other comparably-priced stone I've ever used. For the little money spent on it, it's a great value as I see it. I assume the trade-off may come in durability in the longer term, or perhaps in grit uniformity (pretty sure HH has pointed this out before). My economy stone isn't quite perfectly flat either (slightly dished towards the Fine side). But, as a basic stone for re-setting bevels and putting nice, toothy working edges on blades (it's very good with this), it seems an easy and risk-free choice to me.

If you think you might get the premium Crystolon anyway, you might wait and save for that. I'm sure it'd be at least as good, as many others around here have used it and like it a lot. I picked up the Economy stone, mainly just because $$ is pretty tight, and I also have a LOT of other tools with which I can further refine edges, if needed. Next to a coarse diamond bench hone, I think the Norton SiC stones are next-best for quick bevel-setting on tougher steels and large, heavy blades.


David
 
Excellent. Thanks for that.

I'm still not sure about the premium model, but I guess it can't hurt to call the other local stores to see if they have them.

Hopefully HH will weigh in. ;)
 
OWE, thanks for linking that thread.

The short answer is wait and buy the Crystalon. The Econo stone is a good buy, probably the best of the sub 10.00 stones by a clear margin for utility sharpening. Upon a time I thought they were one and the same, only real difference is the genuine Crystalon has higher purity and more consistent particle size (under magnification). The genuine Crystalon seems to load up less/tolerate more build up before it effects grinding. This is more a consideration if you plan on using water or dry - with oil neither should load up. The Crystalon seems to impart a slightly finer scratch pattern. Most of all the Crystalon comes flat. If you can get a good look at an Econo stone enough to verify its flat then it becomes an even better deal. Mine was severely dished and took a lot of lapping to make it flat. Once broken in and flattened the Econo stone comes darn close to a Crystalon in performance but my advice is to get the genuine article unless the extra 15 bucks (plus shipping) is a real consideration. Also, maybe a woodcraft store or similar that stocks other Norton gear could get one in for you minus the shipping charges. I never asked at any of my local shops, but many stock Norton stuff, the waterstones in particular. Why they couldn't get some in with the next shipment?

Keep in mind the Razor's Edge stones are also SIC, can be had as imperfect/reduced items, and the fine stone they offer is quite nice, a real bargain if purchased reduced.
 
If you find a stone you like, wash it in USP mineral oil. Then squeegee the excess oil off with a rubber kitchen spatula. Then the whole sharpening process will be much less messy. A plastic shoe storage box with a snap on lid makes a good stone oil bath.
 
Weird. I'm at HD right now buying a stone and they have stones that have made in Mexico written on the side of the stone, and stones with made in Brazil written on the side. The Mexico stones are much bigger, but much lighter in color.

I went with the Brazilian stone. They were in the front while the Mexican stones were further back on the peg.
Did I get the right one? Please tell me I got the SiC stone...
 
I've seen that wording on Norton stones. St. Gobain has plants all over the world. I have one or two of the stones with that wording. It's hard to tell the difference in how they work. Based on what Obsessed says from Norton's e-mail I think you went with the correct one. DM
 
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