SiC stone help, opinions and theories thread.

David Martin said:
I've seen that wording on Norton stones. St. Gobain has plants all over the world. I have one or two of the stones with that wording. It's hard to tell the difference in how they work. Based on what Obsessed says from Norton's e-mail I think you went with the correct one. DM
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Thanks :)

The Mexican stone was at least 1/2" wider... I would have bought it simply for that had it not been so much lighter in color. The one I bought is nearly black.

I layed it on a flat surface and it appeared to be flat. If it's not I'll use my diamond hone to flatten it. Hopefully it won't glaze if I do have to do that.

So what's the consensus on lubrication for these stones? I'll probably try water or water and soap first.

I really appreciate all of the advice you guys have given me. I did read through both of the threads daisychained through this one. I had read them when they were written, but they still provided a very good re-read.

For the record, HH, your advice didn't go unheeded. I simply decided to get both the economy and HQ stones. ;)

Oh also, you mention looking at the grit and binder several times. I'm assuming from what you wrote that you were using a microscope at your place of work? Supposing I were to compare the ACE and Norton stones with my loupes... What should I be looking for? Is it just a matter of similarities? I'm way too tired to mess with them now, but I'll be playing with both tomorrow evening.
 
Strigamort said:
Thanks :)

The Mexican stone was at least 1/2" wider... I would have bought it simply for that had it not been so much lighter in color. The one I bought is nearly black.

I layed it on a flat surface and it appeared to be flat. If it's not I'll use my diamond hone to flatten it. Hopefully it won't glaze if I do have to do that.

So what's the consensus on lubrication for these stones? I'll probably try water or water and soap first.

I really appreciate all of the advice you guys have given me. I did read through both of the threads daisychained through this one. I had read them when they were written, but they still provided a very good re-read.

For the record, HH, your advice didn't go unheeded. I simply decided to get both the economy and HQ stones. ;)

Oh also, you mention looking at the grit and binder several times. I'm assuming from what you wrote that you were using a microscope at your place of work? Supposing I were to compare the ACE and Norton stones with my loupes... What should I be looking for? Is it just a matter of similarities? I'm way too tired to mess with them now, but I'll be playing with both tomorrow evening.
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The Brazil one is what I have - definitely silicon carbide. I don't think you'll see much with a loupe - I was looking at 140x and just starting to make out meaningful details. Not till I got up to 640x did I get a better look. Focal depth at that magnification is not much, my eyes were practically bleeding from strain to make out details as I moved the stage up and down. Couldn't get a single good micrograph. You might make out some differences though, can't hurt to try.

For lube on a vitreous stone I always recommend mineral oil. Water, soapy water, etc will work to help prevent the stone from clogging and glazing but oil will float much of the swarf and loose abrasive right off the surface. When I used to use soapy water I also would periodically lap the stones with a loose SiC grit to keep the surface like new. Found out if I use oil the surface stays perfect, and the mud that forms can be carefully wiped up with a sheet of paper and used for a convenient strop - just wrap it around the same stone.

HH
 
Plus, with judicious use of oil the stone wears less, surface remains cleaner and the sharpener (using a light touch) can attain a finer edge from this lubricity. DM
 
For the initial treatment of the stone what do you recommend if I plan to use mineral oil? I recall the suggestion of using petroleum jelly as a sort of resist to keep the stone from gulping copious amounts of oil. Is that a good initial treatment? Should I use some heat to help it work its way into the voids? I recall someone mentioning that they boiled a new pre treated stone and had, what looked to them to be, thickened min oil sort of ooze out. Any idea what thickened min oil would actually be, or where (if?) I could get some? Ideally I'd like to treat the stone in the same way as one of the pre treated stones. I assume that would solve the issue I'm having with my other stone, which is the stone bleeding oil everywhere even when it looks dry. It's not a huge deal I suppose, but I'd like to avoid it if it's an easy solution.

Btw, I shot Saint Gobain a few questions. Hopefully they'll get back to me. If they do I'll pass along what they say.
 
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Strigamort said:
Weird. I'm at HD right now buying a stone and they have stones that have made in Mexico written on the side of the stone, and stones with made in Brazil written on the side. The Mexico stones are much bigger, but much lighter in color.

I went with the Brazilian stone. They were in the front while the Mexican stones were further back on the peg.
Did I get the right one? Please tell me I got the SiC stone...
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The 'Brazil' stone is what I have, so it looks at least like you've got what I've got. :)

When I'd picked mine up at HD, I even saw one package that was marked as 'Mexico' (on the card), but peering through the thin plastic at the marking on the stone, it said 'Brazil'. Figure that out, if you can... :confused: The two stones looked identical in size, color and UPC/item#, but the packaging/labelling was very subtly different between the two. The carded package mine came in had no markings on it, as to country of manufacture.


David
 
Strigamort said:
For the initial treatment of the stone what do you recommend if I plan to use mineral oil? I recall the suggestion of using petroleum jelly as a sort of resist to keep the stone from gulping copious amounts of oil. Is that a good initial treatment? Should I use some heat to help it work its way into the voids? I recall someone mentioning that they boiled a new pre treated stone and had, what looked to them to be, thickened min oil sort of ooze out. Any idea what thickened min oil would actually be, or where (if?) I could get some? Ideally I'd like to treat the stone in the same way as one of the pre treated stones. I assume that would solve the issue I'm having with my other stone, which is the stone bleeding oil everywhere even when it looks dry. It's not a huge deal I suppose, but I'd like to avoid it if it's an easy solution.

Btw, I shot Saint Gobain a few questions. Hopefully they'll get back to me. If they do I'll pass along what they say.
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Personally, I'd avoid using anything very thick for lube/oil on the stone. I had thought of petroleum jelly, but that stuff would be very difficult to clean out of the stone if I decided I didn't like it. Even if thinner oil tends to sink in and absorb very fast, it's also easier to clean up. I did use a little mineral oil on mine, initially (the laxative-grade stuff), and it sunk in fast as well. BUT, since then, I've just used the stone with soapy water, OR water + Simple Green. Used it next to the sink, which was filled with water, and I'd periodically dunk the stone in it and then spritz some Simple Green on it before honing again. I was satisfied with how this worked, and the stone stayed as clean as can be throughout the process. It still looks essentially brand new and dry.


David
 
Strigamort said:
For the initial treatment of the stone what do you recommend if I plan to use mineral oil? I recall the suggestion of using petroleum jelly as a sort of resist to keep the stone from gulping copious amounts of oil. Is that a good initial treatment? Should I use some heat to help it work its way into the voids? I recall someone mentioning that they boiled a new pre treated stone and had, what looked to them to be, thickened min oil sort of ooze out. Any idea what thickened min oil would actually be, or where (if?) I could get some? Ideally I'd like to treat the stone in the same way as one of the pre treated stones. I assume that would solve the issue I'm having with my other stone, which is the stone bleeding oil everywhere even when it looks dry. It's not a huge deal I suppose, but I'd like to avoid it if it's an easy solution.

Btw, I shot Saint Gobain a few questions. Hopefully they'll get back to me. If they do I'll pass along what they say.
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I can't say for sure, but I believe Norton uses some form of paraffin or very similar as a pre treat, at least on the India stone. It readily mingles with mineral oil in subsequent uses and slowly leaches out of the stone. I have one I boiled and one I left as is. The boiled one, under magnification has a lot of voids that are not visible in the unboiled one - they appear to be filled in with some form of thin wax or thick mineral oil. I'm not sure I'd try to emulate this treatment - there's probably a little more to it than at first seems. I have used vaseline as a base rub on several extremely porous stones in the 60 grit range with good results. The mineral oil will mingle with the vaseline somewhat and I haven't noticed any issues with it affecting grinding, just work it in real good and wipe it off with a rag before putting your working oil on the surface.
I have used hot wax on a porous stone before and it either gets melted so far into the stone that it does no good, or its too close to the surface and effects the feedback and grinding on the stone. A thicker oil can also be used, but beware as too thick an oil will have an adverse effect on grinding, esp with medium to fine stones. Vaseline and other oils can be removed from the stone by running hot, hot water and dish soap over the stone, it doesn't hold on like the factory treatment.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The 'Brazil' stone is what I have, so it looks at least like you've got what I've got. :)

When I'd picked mine up at HD, I even saw one package that was marked as 'Mexico' (on the card), but peering through the thin plastic at the marking on the stone, it said 'Brazil'. Figure that out, if you can... :confused: The two stones looked identical in size, color and UPC/item#, but the packaging/labelling was very subtly different between the two. The carded package mine came in had no markings on it, as to country of manufacture.


David
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David, I did look for, and notice, that all of the stones, regardless of what was written on the side, were printed with "made in Mexico" at the bottom. I am so curious as to why they are different colors. Well, "colors" is misleading, I should say "shades of dark gray". I wonder if it's SiC (formed or not after firing), binder or inclusions or something entirely different that's causing this. I really only care because the Mexican stone has a lot more surface area to work on for the same price. I guess the only way to really ever know would be to buy both and do a side by side sharpening comparison.

You guys have conflicting recommendations (or personal preferences) and I think you both have very good reasons for your views, mostly your experience. I respect your opinions equally. That being the case I have no idea what I'll do yet. :D

One of the biggest factors for me (and I really should have pointed this out from the get go) is that I sharpen my knives while I'm watching TV... And I watch TV in bed. It looks weird when I type it out, but it's really not that odd. I work long hours and my wife likes me to be with her most of the time. She's come to expect that I'll be sharpening knives, carving wood or any number of other things while I'm there, but making a huge mess is less than desirable. I guess, given the circumstances, I'll need to find my own method. I'm leaning towards oil though as that seems like it will offer the least problems.

I've used my edge pro knockoff plenty this way and I just switched to oil a couple of weeks ago. So far it seems to be a much better choice than the way I was doing it, which included having a big bowl of water on the bed for cleaning the stones.

Speaking of which, if I took a pic of the stones that it came with could you guys venture a guess as to what they might be? One of them, the coarse 180 grit lets go of so much mud it's awful and really dished. The fine white stone (1200 grit) is pretty decent though. I'll get a pic up this evening. Maybe you can take a stab at my Lansky stones too. The fine stone is a dark red and works well also.
 
Okay, I just took my Norton out of its package a little while ago.

The first thing I noticed was how aggressive the stone is, both coarse and fine. Way more aggressive than the ACE stone. I'd go so far as to say that the fine side of the Norton is a rough (at least initially) or maybe even more so than the coarse side of the ACE. As far as looks go they look pretty much identical. Naked eye gawking may not tell you much, but I guess I wouldn't be shocked to find out that the ACE stone was SiC after all.

Out of the box I decided to go ahead and oil soak the stone. I decided that I can deal with the slight mess that it makes verses the overall hassle of using water. Again, big differences between the stones. With the surface being as aggressive as it is I expected it to drink oil the same as the ACE stone. It may have (eventually) sucked up as much oil, relative to its size, as the other sharpener, but it did so in a much slower fashion. The ACE stone was like a sponge with water, the Norton not nearly so.

Okay, so what about using it? Well I'll be damned... I LOVE it. I don't know what I was expecting, but this is a great piece of kit. I have very limited experience freehand sharpening, and almost all of what I do posses is on diamonds. This is so much different though. I'm not sure if it's the oil, or the interaction between blade and stone plus mud, but the tactile feel and sound are wonderful!

The test knife is a cheap (but much loved) S&W knife that I use to use for sharpening practice. That job has since been filled by an Opinel, but I knew that I wouldn't get anything resembling a highly refined edge with just the stone so I brought the Chinese folder out of retirement. I'm actually amazed that I was able to, not only get a fairly consistent bevel (the grind is whack near the tang from the factory so don't worry about that part), but also how quickly I was able to reprofile it. I don't think I've ever rebeveled an edge on any knife as quickly even using a diamond stone. I also don't think that I've ever ground up a burr quite so easily either.

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It's true that this fresh edge is nowhere near as refined as it was before, but just going off of one very inexpensive combination stone I've got to say I am very very impressed.

So that was a test. I'll probably do at least one more test knife before it, but I've got a brand new 7 1/2" blade in 1070 steel that is over 60° inclusive from the factory. I want to cut that down to around 40° and go from there. I was sure that an even grind was well beyond my ability, and it may be yet, but I did okay with the first knife and this new one has a pretty long and straight edge that curves up at the end. I'm thinking it can't be impossible.

So I have just a moment of experience with this stone, but my initial take on it is positive. I'm sure I'll have plenty of follow up questions, but so far so good.

Thanks for your help, as always.
 
Strig, That's great. Just keep working at using a light touch and see what you are able to obtain. Plus, HH's method is good. DM
 
Hey Strig,

I'm very glad to hear you like it. Your impressions of the aggressiveness of it are spot-on identical to mine. I never would've expected that degree of aggressiveness from anything other than a diamond hone, and this is from a 'cheap' stone at that. Great bang for the buck. I also like the feedback (feel, sound) of that stone. Very 'glassy' ring to it, and it feels like it's really doing some work (as it should). I wish all stones felt and sounded as good. :)


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Hey Strig,

I'm very glad to hear you like it. Your impressions of the aggressiveness of it are spot-on identical to mine. I never would've expected that degree of aggressiveness from anything other than a diamond hone, and this is from a 'cheap' stone at that. Great bang for the buck. I also like the feedback (feel, sound) of that stone. Very 'glassy' ring to it, and it feels like it's really doing some work (as it should). I wish all stones felt and sounded as good. :)


David
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I never would have described it as a 'glassy' ring, but thats very accurate. Feedback is excellent too - very similar to the Crystalon stone and I comment in the video how I thought they were identical. The great feedback on these stones (and their ability to grind a wide variety of steels with little variation) is why I always recommend them for learning freehand. They also continue to challenge as one improves - with very little post-stone finishing one can get a very high quality edge.
 
HH, thanks for the video links. Your method is much different than mine.
For the reprofiling I used a back and forth sawing motion. Once the bevel was set I used a typical heel to tip motion like trying to slice the top layer off the stone. I'm going to give your method a try.

David, that's exactly accurate. A glass ringing sound is the perfect descriptor.

I love this stone, but I wish they made it bigger. Something the size of bluntcuts town stone would be amazing. :)
 
Strig, Yes, HH's method is very different than mine as well. Because I used a method more like you describe. However, when your ready to give it a legitimate try as I did it will surprise you how fast it grinds and works up a burr. I'm not looking for sound that much but perhaps a growly ting to me. Anyway they work very well and return you a quality edge for your small investment, offering long term value. I like them so much after using them for years that I now have two 6'', one 8" and two 11.5" stones of this type. Three being combination stones, all before the economy stones. I agree and like my larger stones most but the 8" is more portable and I carry it or the 6" when traveling. DM
 
David Martin said:
Strig, Yes, HH's method is very different than mine as well. Because I used a method more like you describe. However, when your ready to give it a legitimate try as I did it will surprise you how fast it grinds and works up a burr. I'm not looking for sound that much but perhaps a growly ting to me. Anyway they work very well and return you a quality edge for your small investment, offering long term value. I like them so much after using them for years that I now have two 6'', one 8" and two 11.5" stones of this type. Three being combination stones, all before the economy stones. I agree and like my larger stones most but the 8" is more portable and I carry it or the 6" when traveling. DM
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Occasionally I hear someone make reference to taking their sharpening kit with them. Just curious, where are you taking it with you to? I don't think that I've ever needed to touch up an edge while away from home, save maybe camping. :)
 
Ah! I can't take how it just keeps drinking oil... I soaked it until it was drenched last night. Today it's just sucking up more.

I'm at Walmart, gonna get some pet. jelly. I'll report back on how it goes.
 
To Father-in-law's and sharpen his kitchen knives. If you were on the road much you'd dull a knife and need a stone and strop. As well as for camping. Plus, I encounter guys all the time who never learned how to sharpen their knife. DM
 
David Martin said:
To Father-in-law's and sharpen his kitchen knives. If you were on the road much you'd dull a knife and need a stone and strop. As well as for camping. Plus, I encounter guys all the time who never learned how to sharpen their knife. DM
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Ah, to take with you to sharpen others knives. That makes plenty of sense. :)

I sharpen knives for guys (from work) all the time, but I just bring them home for the evening. It stuns them when they get a razor sharp knife back. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. Non knife people are pretty happy with a dismally dull edge.

So I put a very thin layer of vasoline on the stone, heat up the toaster oven just to warm, turned it off and put the stone in there. I dunno if that small an amount will do anything but we'll see.

In the meantime I have another question. I see people say that to clean an oil stone they put a little fresh oil on it and wipe it off. What are you using to wipe it with? I tried a microfiber towel (stupid), paper napkins, a washcloth... no matter what I try it leaves all manner of nasty lint and fuzzballs behind. They're a pain to clean off themselves! Jeez, I feel like I need help with every little thing...
 
I have come across meat cutters who did not know how to sharpen a knife.
I've used shop towels, paper towels and yes, they leave lent behind but it comes right off with a few swipes with my hand. Also, an old tooth brush, paint brush or whisk broom will remove lint quickly. Heck, a few sweeps with a wire brush will do it. Hoppes #9 or WD-40 and a wire brush will clean your stone. Paint thinner or polyurethane and wire brush will do a more thorough job. Which ever you have handy. DM
 
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