Simple day hike turns tragic.

Some seriously shameful responses here…….

Maybe I feel that way since it really hits home with me since I take my kids and whole family into the woods on a regular basis. I have boys of similar age and felt an extreme amount of personal pain to know that the fathers last remaining hours on this world was to watch his kids die and he himself was helpless to prevent this.

It’s a terrible tragedy that one shouldn't make light of or waste time stating the obvious, the obvious is clear to all of us who take an interest in wilderness survival. It’s a tragedy or the worst kind. Let them rest in peace.
 
SubaruSTi said:
How is an "experienced hiker" caught in the woods in January with no gear? With kids you would think he would have a pack with snacks and an extra layer, kids complain a lot.

This was a senseless tragedy that could have been avoided 100% even when I go on a simple 3.5 miler I take:

Mystery Ranch 3DAP
Snacks, usually more than I need
an extra layer unless its July or another hot month
blister bandaids
Fixed blade
firestarter
too much water
emberlit stove & Ti cup with lid
light
PSK
leatherman
550 cord
cellphone
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Yes, it was avoidable.

BUT,
None of the things you list would have made any difference in those meteorological conditions. Freezing rain isn't like that. It only takes a hand full of minutes in those conditions before people become functionally inept. Cold, wet, tired people want to get back to camp. By the time it's evident that isn't going to happen, it's far too late to make a fire and brew some coco. Even if a fire can be built, and that's a very big "IF", you can't huddle around a campfire and survive an onslaught of sub-freezing water droplets raining down on you. Got a tarp? OK...ever tried pitching it in freezing rain with numb hands? Freezing rain can drop mature trees in minutes...how long do you suspect it will take for the freezing rain to collapse your tarp?

Anyone who believes they can use a couple extra layers and a bag full of gadgets to survive severe weather conditions simply doesn't have enough experience to know better. Some conditions, freezing rain DEFINITELY included, can only be survived by wearing the sort of highly specialized clothing that nobody hikes in, or by avoiding it.
 
sutured said:
Yes, it was avoidable.

BUT,
None of the things you list would have made any difference in those meteorological conditions. Freezing rain isn't like that. It only takes a hand full of minutes in those conditions before people become functionally inept. Cold, wet, tired people want to get back to camp. By the time it's evident that isn't going to happen, it's far too late to make a fire and brew some coco. Even if a fire can be built, and that's a very big "IF", you can't huddle around a campfire and survive an onslaught of sub-freezing water droplets raining down on you. Got a tarp? OK...ever tried pitching it in freezing rain with numb hands? Freezing rain can drop mature trees in minutes...how long do you suspect it will take for the freezing rain to collapse your tarp?

Anyone who believes they can use a couple extra layers and a bag full of gadgets to survive severe weather conditions simply doesn't have enough experience to know better. Some conditions, freezing rain DEFINITELY included, can only be survived by wearing the sort of highly specialized clothing that nobody hikes in, or by avoiding it.
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We had freezing rain the same weekend and I was out in the woods all day Sunday, my tent that I have pitched was still fine. Yes everything was covered in ice and I did fall down and bang my knee hard but a fire would have saved their lives I can guarantee it.

I can also guarantee I would have survived the situation as I would never have left for any hike without my Randall or Busse and a full box of matches and a firesteel.

I also always wear wool and nylon, wool is warm when its wet and nylon drys very fast. It would have sucked but it would have been survivable. With my bag of gadgets I would have had hot tea and some snacks to eat.

And I would have had a phone to dial for help!
 
SubaruSTi said:
I can also guarantee I would have survived the situation as I would never have left for any hike without my Randall or Busse and a full box of matches and a firesteel.
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Whoa Now... Nobody told me you have both a Randall and a Busse. I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
 
What I don't get is why the father didn't accept the ride, and how neither of the kids spoke up when he didn't. Something along the lines of "Hey, Dad? We're getting hypothermic here. Maybe you oughta accept the offer" might have been in order.
 
Dan57 said:
What I don't get is why the father didn't accept the ride, and how neither of the kids spoke up when he didn't. Something along the lines of "Hey, Dad? We're getting hypothermic here. Maybe you oughta accept the offer" might have been in order.
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Just a guess would be... none of the three recognized the signs of hypothermia, if they even knew the term. And if hypothermia had already set in at that point, reasoning and decision making is one of the first skills to go.
 
Codger_64 said:
Just a guess would be... none of the three recognized the signs of hypothermia, if they even knew the term. And if hypothermia had already set in at that point, reasoning and decision making is one of the first skills to go.
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So then replace "hypothermic" (you're right, little kids probably wouldn't know the word) with "extremely freakin' cold." Eight year olds aren't known for being particularly stoic. Any eight or ten year old I know would've thrown a fit at the idea of being forced to stay out of that car.
 
I and a friend were caught in an unpredicted "ice storm" in PA backpacking in the Allegheny Nat'l Forest. We were almost to our intended night campsite so that's where we went. We had a tent, rain gear, and insulation layers. We had no real problems except: 1) the tent collected very little ice on its walls (not really super cold) but was well-frozen to the ground the next morning (had to get it days later); 2) it took >3x normal to get back to our van; AND 3) it took hours to get drive home due to downed trees/wires blocking roads. If we had no rain gear (or anything else to keep the wet off) and inadequate insulation, we would have faced a tough situation. Everything was glazed with ice in under 30 mins.

I know of a Scout troop caught in an ice storm in that same general area years ago. The Scouts told the two "adults" who wanted to "push on" that they were heading back to the cars. A third adult supported their decision, and the two "tough guys" came along - muttering all the way back. Hundreds of stranded hikers and backpackers had to be rescued that weekend, but not those Scouts who had the good judgment to recognize what was happening.

I think we can agree that admitting there is a problem is the first step to dealing with it.
 
The evil of hypothermia is that it dulls your ambition and reasoning. It's common for people to just focus on some irrational goal and try to push to it. The story reads along similar lines to many other hypothermia stories.

IMO, the issue is not about what to do when things get that bad (make a fire, build a shelter, etc). Much more to do with heading off the situation long in advance (retreat, have your clothing system absolutely nailed).
 
Again this Saturday is going to have a high of 46 and a low that night of 17. I hope we don't have another repeat.
 
SubaruSTi said:
Again this Saturday is going to have a high of 46 and a low that night of 17. I hope we don't have another repeat.
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It could easily happen. Consider that most people who "camp" and "hike" in developed campgrounds and prepared, groomed trails in State Parks and National Parks have very little knowledge of basic survival skills. Likewise, little knowledge of weather conditions or an array of appropriate clothing and/or equipment to help them cope with adverse weather. Fewer people have knowledge and experience gained from years as outdoorsmen, or from completing a scouting program than previously in our history. The modern W&SS fad is just that, a fad. Which has a realtively small number of serious adherants. What seems to most of us here to be common sense is to many city dwellers very alien to their life experiences and knowledge base.

One area where this forum shines is in our willingness to discect incidents like this to see what can be learned for our own benefit. Likewise in our often quite harsh critique of the various survival shows and their hosts' antics. In our examinations we learn and we teach. And hopefully we all take the opportunity to pass along our knowledge to others among our families and friends.
 
My father whom is now getting a bit older but still strong as a bull, and very knowledgeable about the outdoors as he farmed, worked construction and performed general farm duty his whole life has always said to me: "(insert current month) is a treacherous month!" When I was younger I sometimes discounted this but its really true.

He has seen it all from chickens frozen solid in the trees to gigantic floods to heat so hot it melts the soles on your shoes.
 
sutured said:
Got a tarp? OK...ever tried pitching it in freezing rain with numb hands? Freezing rain can drop mature trees in minutes...how long do you suspect it will take for the freezing rain to collapse your tarp?
.
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Actually, yeah, many times. If you pitch it steeply so it doesn't collect precip, use good, heavy anchors, and ideally take advantage of terrain to aid in sheltering the tarp, it ain't so bad. It's not fun, either, but it's do-able, and a helluva lot better than being exposed.

That said, it's quite easy to slip into hypothermia without really realizing it. If you're alone, you may be hosed. In group situations, it's really important that people are watching and checking in on each other for signs of hypothermia, such as the classic "umble" signs. Fumbling, stumbling, mumbling, etc. It's happened to me, and it really took a co-worker to make me realize it, and to start pro-actively taking steps to turn it around. I could see how people, especially when alone in the outdoors, could easily just keep going downhill without realizing it.
 
I've been in a situation like that which could have ended badly. I could say I had a "Cody/Joe Moment" where I fought myself to make quick shelter and fire when the best answer was to keep moving, generating muscle heat, to a better sheltered spot, set up a real shelter, get dry and heat some hot liquids. My "Joe" proved to be correct as the weather continued to deteriorate. I woke the next morning with my tent inside a "cave" of cedar tree limbs bent to the ground with a thick coating of ice. Had I not pressed on and established a better shelter with heat, dried myself and consumed warm food and drink, the outcome might not have been so pleasant. I did learn from the experience. And before anyone asks, I did check the forecasts before I left but it was a two week wilderness trip with no communications. There were no winter ice storm warnings when I left and no reliable forcasts two weeks out.
 
Without being someone like a old Indian its nearly impossible for a layman to read the weather good enough to know its going to go from 60 to 16 in a matter of hours.

I've bee. Camping when it was nice and had the bottom fall out but I said to myself and m friend that this warm day will not last and it could get down to freezing that night and sure enough it did but we had modern camping gear to handle it.

I can't imagine the thoughts running through this guys head as he saw himself and his kids die, for nothing. I had to have been horrible.
 
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