Skeletonized Tang in 3V?

[bikerector]

What are your thoughts on this tang? It’s a Lionsteel M5 in 3v. I was soooo excited to get it, and it feels absolutely great in the hand. From nearly all perspectives it’s a perfect bushcraft/survival/edc fixed blade…until you take off the scales. Would you hesitate to put this knife through its paces? I’m not sure if I should forget about the tang and not worry about it, or if I should look for something with more meat in the handle.

https://imgur.com/a/9e3NMa9

Back on topic. As mentioned on the other forum, this would not bother me at all. As far as skeletonizing goes, they did better than many. They left the area around the front pin hold pretty thick, and around the ricasso.

That lionsteel is 0.18" thick and likely at least that in width at the skeletonized areas. Even just a 1.5-2? bar at 0.18"x0.18" is going to be pretty hard to bend, and 3V is pretty hard stuff. If it breaks, like the gentleman mentioned about the BK2, it's not because the design, it's because something was wrong in the steel itself and it performed wrong.

With a blade of only 4.5" long, it's going to be really hard to get enough leverage to even bend that with lateral loading (prying, uses is a step, etc). And CPM-3V is a steel that tends to do really well against abuse, a lot of abuse. I'm sure lionsteel doesn't heat treat as well as Carothers, but look at some of the stuff Mr. Carothers does the 3V. You'll probably see more edge damage on the lionsteel, but the edge is many times thinner than that skeletonized tang. Even a "standard" heat treat on 3V is very durable stuff, and lionsteel tends to do a really good job radiusing lines so you shouldn't have many stress risers from that.

What I would still encourage you to do is test YOUR knife and see what it can handle. Once you feel comfortable with what it can do, you'll feel more comfort in your mystical survival scenario. You'll also know more about how the knife works, handles, and cuts.

Seriously, just enjoy the knife. I've been a fan of all of the lionsteel fixed blades I've tried. Their edges are thicker than I prefer, especially on their folders, but for harder use fixed blades it's tolerable and that's something that's not too hard to correct on the aggressive bench stones.

If you get to testing, please share pics and update us here and the other forums you've asked this question on.

 

[Wandering_About]

Ain’t nobody need no stankin’ GPS. All you need is a map, compass and knowing the magnetic declination for your area.

Will a map and compass get SAR on the way to your location if you're injured such that you can't self rescue? Proper navigation skills are absolutely important, but with the availability of SOS devices I have come to find it wise to add one to my backpack, especially since I'm usually solo. Again, the ability to get help on the way to you in a dire situation is what I'm talking about. Laziness in navigation due to GPS is a different issue. Map, compass, and the ability to use them are another essential part of a kit, but they're only so much help if you're immobile.

 

[91bravo]

Will a map and compass get SAR on the way to your location if you're injured such that you can't self rescue? Proper navigation skills are absolutely important, but with the availability of SOS devices I have come to find it wise to add one to my backpack, especially since I'm usually solo. Again, the ability to get help on the way to you in a dire situation is what I'm talking about. Laziness in navigation due to GPS is a different issue. Map, compass, and the ability to use them are another essential part of a kit, but they're only so much help if you're immobile.

I could see getting a locator beacon if I was doing snow sports where there’s a risk of avalanche burial. We hike in a group, our chance of self-rescue are much better. I was a combat field medic in the military and my wife is a nurse, so we have supplies, gear, and most importantly, the knowledge to respond to an emergency should one arise.

 

[MissesMeow]

It’s hard to believe because it’s nonsense.

A broken BK2 falls into the same category as the unreliable Toyotas, drinkable Mezcal, and sane redheads. They can be found, but they are exceedingly rare, and you’ve got to search very hard.

Hey! My wife and daughter are redheads … and your characterization is spot on.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

OP,

at least they radiused the cutouts. Considering where the force of the lateral pressure will be I think you're ok... Lionsteel has been really impressing me lately. Ultimately I'm with you though, I've seen a fair few knives break wherever the cutout begins but more often than not it's located more towards the ricasso which lionsteel has cleverly avoided.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

I think you read his post wrong. He never incurred it was the user doing something wrong, it was that many Bk2's have survived plenty well even after abusing the heck out of it. A few have broke, many haven't. Could've easily been a cause for a void in the steel, which causes even solid tang knives to fail. Or maybe there was a stress crack.

Point being, with how many are out there, there's bound to be a few that failed by pure chance and statistical anomalies, not because it's a bad or unreliable design.

I'm not sure what you did to break yours, but there's a really good chance someone did worse and the knife held up just fine. And more than once. Sucks your knife broke, but that's highly unlikely to be the norm or even statistically significant.

Anything can and will break. But 1095 is a brittle steel regardless. I’m not sure why they don’t differential harden their blades!! Although, 1095 is a shallow hardening steel, I would still do a clay coat on the spine at least.
Although I’ve yet to break a test blade I have in z-tuff. Not many knives can survive being hammered through 1/4 inch mild plate!! I did finally tear a chunk out, side loading the hell out of the edge, and beating it with a sledge hammer. But the knife hasn’t broken yet, even putting it in a vise and hitting the tang with a sledge hammer over 50 times!!! But anyway, that’s my heat treat, and just a test to see what this steel in that heat treat can do!! 1095 wouldn’t have lasted the first test I’m sure! I’ve broken 3v, not easily, it took more than any other steel other than ztuff, Abe-l, 15n20, 8670. Currently testing A8 mod the same way, All doing these tests!

As a maker, when I build a “survival knife” I test them in ways most won’t use them! But I make sure your life can depend on it, just in case!! Lol

 

[Olumin]

If its well done (leaving enough material in critical areas) and sharp corners are properly radiused there shouldn't be a problem. This one looks good to me.

To be frank; for the money some makers are charging for their fixed blades these days, they should probably just taper the tang & skip the skeletonizing altogether. But I assume this takes too long on the milling machines and drilling holes is simply faster and saves them money. Its ultimately a business decision, and since no one seems to be crying for tapered tangs, probably a smart one.

 

[bikerector]

Anything can and will break. But 1095 is a brittle steel regardless. I’m not sure why they don’t differential harden their blades!! Although, 1095 is a shallow hardening steel, I would still do a clay coat on the spine at least.
Although I’ve yet to break a test blade I have in z-tuff. Not many knives can survive being hammered through 1/4 inch mild plate!! I did finally tear a chunk out, side loading the hell out of the edge, and beating it with a sledge hammer. But the knife hasn’t broken yet, even putting it in a vise and hitting the tang with a sledge hammer over 50 times!!! But anyway, that’s my heat treat, and just a test to see what this steel in that heat treat can do!! 1095 wouldn’t have lasted the first test I’m sure! I’ve broken 3v, not easily, it took more than any other steel other than ztuff, Abe-l, 15n20, 8670. Currently testing A8 mod the same way, All doing these tests!

As a maker, when I build a “survival knife” I test them in ways most won’t use them! But I make sure your life can depend on it, just in case!! Lol

I imagine differentially HT is a lot more labor intensive for kabar. I've heard tops does an induction HT process on their 1095, but I'm not sure where I heard it oe if it's true at this point.

But yeah, 1095 doesn't win in many categories except being inexpensive and widely avaialble. It works adequately for many uses, but not my top pick for a survival knife, given the option.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

I imagine differentially HT is a lot more labor intensive for kabar. I've heard tops does an induction HT process on their 1095, but I'm not sure where I heard it oe if it's true at this point.

But yeah, 1095 doesn't win in many categories except being inexpensive and widely avaialble. It works adequately for many uses, but not my top pick for a survival knife, given the option.

And that’s the difference between custom and mass produced. More labor, but better quality!! They use 1095 because of the cost. They could very well use 15n20 and get better all around performance!! Maybe a hair less edge retention, but way more toughness. I’ve never understood the fad of 1095. When I got into making knives, it wasn’t even a steel on my radar. I started with 15n20, and still use it here and there!!

 

[rodriguezryan14]

But, to the OP, I don’t see an issue with a knife of that size, if heat treat is spot on. You won’t break that knife unless you beat on it with a sledge hammer!! 3v is extremely tough steel

 

[BlindMouse2of3]

Looks to me like it just needs scales, but if you are worried fill it full of devcon 10110 or some T-88 and put the scales back on permanently. Then if you manage to break it (without the employ of an absurd amount of "hey that's a really bad idea") you can frame it and put it on the mantle.

 

[Iron Sharpens Iron]

Actually, Joe X DOES have a video with extreme “hard-use” (abuse) testing of the Lionsteel M5. It survived stabbing the steel car roof and banging the edge on the steel door rail fairly well, but the blade tip broke quite quickly in the stump stab & bend test, and WHEN HE SMACKED IT REPEATEDLY AGAINST A CONCRETE BLOCK, the edge of the blade chipped out large chunks several times and it had a SEVERE FAILURE BREAK - RIGHT AT THE SKELETONIZED SECTION of the tang (the area of the blade being discussed in this post).

Now, to all the “Joe X haters” out there, don’t go berserk on me - please hear me out. I fully understand nobody would repeatedly bang their knife on a rock with full force in real life, but THE VALUE of what Joe X does when testing the knives to the point of failure is this: when you compare a given knife with other knives he tested in other videos the same way, it gives you A RELATIVE IDEA OF HOW TOUGH A GIVEN KNIFE ACTUALLY IS AND HOW FAR YOU CAN PUSH IT.

I would definitely still buy the Lionsteel M5, (and plan to this month), because it’s a beautiful, good quality knife and a good value in price for what you’re getting. Also, based on Joe X’s tests, I know this knife CAN handle quite a bit, but I also know I won’t use it as an extreme's hard-use beater knife - I would probably use a very tough Cold Steel blade (such as my SRK in CPM 3V) for that instead.

 

[Deino]

It is really a non issue. Full length and width might add like 5% strength for 20% mass more mass. Same thing with stick tangs on many knives, even if some of you guys want to bring up awful JoeX, the majority of the stick tang knives the dude "tested" don't break at the tang (Jaakaripuukko 110/140, Buck 119, many Morakniv, etc) and some are even half length stick tang (Glock knife, Morakniv).

What do you even realistically use it for? If you use a knife for an unintended purpose, no tang is strong enough.