Slicer: How much is enough?

Gator97 said:
I think you are looking at the problem from the wrong side. In general as thin as the steel, or whatever the blade material is better for cutting and chopping.
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I am trying to look at this from the present state of metallurgy.

Gator97 said:
If the blade is made out of 0.01mm thick material that can withstand edc chores, or even hard use, why would you want thicker blade?
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I totally agree with you on this.

Gator97 said:
I have 1mm thick, 62HRC CPM 3V blade and it cuts very good. Does stand up for what it was designed. If it could do the same at half or quarter of its current thickness I really wouldn't mind.
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Yes, but we can't all have CPM 3V blades in our folders. A common steel would be say VG-10 or ZDP. If we had folders with those steels at a thickness of 1mm and FFG, how fragile would these blades be?

If they can take the stresses of EDC, fine, I'm all for that. But if we have to take such drastic reduction in blade strength just to see a 20 or 30 percent increase in cutting performance, this would make it, IMHO, a special purpose knife. No longer general EDC.

Some applications might make such a high cutting performance necessary and so the reduction in blade durability is well worth the price to pay. But in EDC where dropping a knife might mean losing more than just the tip and where the increased cutting performance in not absolutely necessary, a very fragile blade might be counter-productive.
 
I want my grind to be as thin as possible without breaking. Knives are made to cut stuff, so I want my knife to do the job as well as possible.

Does than mean that all of my knives are razor-thin slicers? Of course not (but most are). That's the beauty of owning many different knives. If I plan on doing some abusive cutting, I'll grab a thicker blade. Most of the time, I carry a relatively thin grind and make sure not to use it as a screwdriver.

I think that this trend toward thinner grinds is just the market reacting to the previous trend of thicker and thicker "tactical" blades.
 
Realistically, I think that 1/16 stock is about as thin as I would go for a general use knife. Some may think that 1/16 is too thin, but it actually holds up in soft materials. A lot of cheap filet and kitchen knives are made of such thin stock, and they seem to perform well in most cases.
 
Phillip Dobson said:
I think that this trend toward thinner grinds is just the market reacting to the previous trend of thicker and thicker "tactical" blades.
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Yeah, maybe trends do go in cycles. Being new to knives(All I have held were local knives before I joined) I wouldn't know much about trends and cycles. :D
 
As thin as possible with failing, please. 1095 is great for this. The thickness of an opinel blade is great, although I'll tolerate thicker. The thickness of a sebenza is max.
 
singularity35 said:
If they can take the stresses of EDC, fine, I'm all for that. But if we have to take such drastic reduction in blade strength just to see a 20 or 30 percent increase in cutting performance, this would make it, IMHO, a special purpose knife. No longer general EDC.
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What is general edc? What does it entail that a thin knife cannot handle? There is actually nothing general about edc, and there are no general tasks every knife must be capable of. I could rub the edge of a knife against the cement driveway, and it would no longer slice paper or cut a tomato, yet it's still a knife. The ability to increase lateral or shock loads, just like the ability to decrease loads while cutting, are nice things to have, but are not requirements. You can't just say a knife is too thin or too thick in general, it's going to be too thin or too thick for specific people doing specific tasks. How much is enough? There's no one answer.

There are already 1mm - .040" thick blades, such as on utility knives, the ones we abuse more than most EDC blades. Then there are .020" thick 'extra heavy duty' razor blades, used in scrapers.
 
I have sharpened on a cinder block, but the knife was able to shave a little arm hair :). Just pointing out that a knife doesn't have to be X sharpness level to be a knife. Knives really don't have to do more than look like knives, and we accept a pretty broad spectrum there. I say make em thin or tough, make em pretty or ugly, just keep making them.
 
Each person has his own version of "everyday chores". If you do manual labor and need to twist or pry stuff with your knife, get a saber ground knife. If your daily task benefits from a sharp slicer, get a full hollow ground knife. Most other things in between can be handled by a flat ground knife, as it seems to be a good compromise.
 
hardheart said:
I have sharpened on a cinder block, but the knife was able to shave a little arm hair :). Just pointing out that a knife doesn't have to be X sharpness level to be a knife. Knives really don't have to do more than look like knives, and we accept a pretty broad spectrum there. I say make em thin or tough, make em pretty or ugly, just keep making them.
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Now this is something I agree with wholeheartedly. :thumbup:
 
I really don't care for FFGs. I am indifferent. However, I find more aesthetic beauty in hollow grinds.
 
This has been an interesting thread for me. The Opinels' legendary slicing performance isn't just because of a thin blade - the convex grind has a lot to do with it. Like several others who have contributed to this thread, I also prefer to EDC a knife for it's overall effectiveness as a knife and not because I want a prybar or screwdriver - I have a multi-tool to do that sort of stuff, but a m-t is not the first thing I reach for when I want a knife. Much as I love my multi-tools, plier priority tools do not make the best handling knife

I have recently discovered Japanese chef knives and the choices are mind blowing. Everything from super-thins with laser-like cutting ability but often fragile edges to heavy duty beasts and everything in between. While I normally prefer blades on the anorexic side I am amazed at the slicing ability of my relatively thick 270 mm Doi kiritsuke.

So it's not just about thinness - overall blade design/shape/profile/grind/steel/heat-treat/edge-finish all contribute to how a blade works for its designed purpose. One of the great pleasures I get from this obsession is getting to play with all these different knives and getting to see how well they perform at different tasks
 
I like thinner blades for everyday use. 1.5 mm to 2.0 mm with a full flat grind is fine by me. It all depends on the intended use of course.

I often carry two knives. A small folder and a SAK.
 
Is it far fedged idea that many knife manufacturers make their edges bit thicker than necessary to avoid "casual" users from breaking their blades and darkening the knife manufacturers reputation?

I personally can't see how every day utility folders should have so thick edges, since there is not much torture from the sides (like with fixed blades when whittling etc).
 
thinness has great utility, i would certainly consider the cutting of tires by unit & so-lo to be fairly heavy duty use. lest we forget all the mountain men, buffalo hunters , & trappers were using thin russell & i. wilson butcher knives.the heavy bowie knives were carried mostly by combatents in the civil war. certainly skinning buffalo would'nt be considered light duty.perhaps americans are learning a knife is for cutting ,not chopping or prying. those whom like to chop are welcome as myself to buy a ferhman final judgment or becker 9 in.
 
The SAK, the Douk-Douk, and the traditional slipjoint all have thin, full flat grind blades, often of less than the latest & greatest steel. They are routinely used for a wide range of personal and industrial tasks. Know how and when to use a thinner blade, and understand that some uses may lead to having to replace a damaged tool.
 
The wonderful thing about steel is, that it can be made to do almost anything to a wide range of specs. It all depends on how it is heat treated.

As has been said, the old mountain men carried and used what was in effect, a large thin butcher knife. Most people in third world countries and depend on cutlery for daily work, get by very well with a tough machete. Most machete's are about 3/32ds of an inch in thickness, with the heavier Ontario's going all of 1/8 of an inch. Not many of them break, and usually are ground away by sharpening in the field with a file.

Professional meat cutters, like the old buffalo hunters, are breaking down large animal carcasses for consumption, and most of their knives are 3/32 and even thinner. Professional fish mongers use thin fillet knives for hundreds of pounds a fish a day, and some of those blades are 1/16th stock.

For anything other than mall ninja day dreams or zombie killing, it seems that most people in normal day to day activities that involve real world use of cutting tools, use fairly thin blade stock. As far as thin blades not taking a lot of punishment, try destroying a Tramontina 12 inch machete. You'll have to work at it.
 
Sep said:
Each person has his own version of "everyday chores". If you do manual labor and need to twist or pry stuff with your knife, get a saber ground knife. If your daily task benefits from a sharp slicer, get a full hollow ground knife. Most other things in between can be handled by a flat ground knife, as it seems to be a good compromise.
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I disagree. "If you do manual labor and need to twist or pry stuff with your knife..." get the right tool like a screwdriver or prybar.

I'm with antonio luiz on his Opinel point. Its a thin knife with a great slicing geometry. What's wrong with that? I don't really find myself chopping cinder blocks or stabbing 55 gallon drums very often. I prefer knives that cut.

I suppose if I am going out to play "survival" and bash stuff, thicker would be great. But I don't do that every day.
 
To answer the original post, I think a small slipjoint size blade is perfect for everyday use. Usually they are very thin stock and slice through most everything with minimal effort. I had a small opinel once that was laser sharp, but I much prefer the slipjoints heft and balance. The blade also looked a little too thin to me. As long as the blade doesn't drag or catch it's sharp enough for me. The only time I really want hairsplitting sharpness is when I'm skinning game. Most of my everyday cutting doesn't really require a razor.
 
There are a lot of interesting opinions here.

I think there are some knives out there that might change a few people's notion of what some grinds/edges might be able to do. There are MANY MANY MANY variables in knife design, geometry and metallurgy that impact how things will turn out.

I also find it interesting that this topic evolves quickly into "hard use" vs "slicing" discussion wherever it is brought up. I personally think the lines between these two concepts need to be blurred a lot more than some people see them...that is just my 2 pesos though.

The best knife is the one that serves the users needs...no single answer, no single user. Many guys carry several knives because they understand that "one tool for every job" only applies on infomercials.


Singularity, as you and I have discussed before, I have some every day tasks that require a VERY high degree of slicing ability. I benefit greatly from a knife that will slice with the lowest amount of force so that I may reduce fatigue. It would seem that the thinnest possible blade would be the best but the slicing I do is relatively hard, so I need edge retention, and a stout enough spine to allow me to use a prying action with the knife as I cut to "open up" the media and reduce binding...therefore I need a reasonable thickness. I therefore have to compromise between the ultimate slicer and the ultimate hard user....I think a few people (upon watching what I do) would perhaps conclude that my knife (while not often regarded as a hard use knife) performs some pretty hard duties, but what is more...on paper it would seem that this knife is a fragile slicer that would fail under any sort of "real" duty.

I hope this comes across right...I am not trying to start or continue any debate. To the contrary, I am trying to open some eyes to the idea that you can have a knife that performs quite well at slicing and gives up less than some may think regarding "hard use".


Cool thread, Singularity...this topic is right where my interests lie!
 
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