I emailed Smith & Wesson asking what steel they use in their knives, specifically the 1st Response knife. They responded in 2 days and said they didn't know! They did refer me to Taylor Cutlery with an 800 number, but I would think if I was selling a product, I would want to know what I'm selling.
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Smith & Wesson doesn't know what steel is used.
- Thread starter Burnout
- Start date
Burnout,
I should be surprised but I'm not really. Many of the companies like S&W (Remington, Beretta, etc. come to mind) contract out for the knives that bear their name. Unless you manage to contact just the right person, you'll get a clueless response.
Some of the firms who are contracted are known, others are somewhat vague. For example, most of the Remington knives are Camillus made. Perhaps others can identify who makes what for whom.
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-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
AKTI membership pending
VHA and NRA member
I should be surprised but I'm not really. Many of the companies like S&W (Remington, Beretta, etc. come to mind) contract out for the knives that bear their name. Unless you manage to contact just the right person, you'll get a clueless response.
Some of the firms who are contracted are known, others are somewhat vague. For example, most of the Remington knives are Camillus made. Perhaps others can identify who makes what for whom.
------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
AKTI membership pending
VHA and NRA member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 1999
- Messages
- 1,284
Burnout,
could you possibly post the URL of Taylor Cutlery's website? I'm also curious, as I have a S&W Swat knife here.
I was told that it's 440C, and from the looks of it, it is. Very sharp out of the box, though I haven't cut anything yet to test its edge-holding capabilities.
Thanks!
Dan
could you possibly post the URL of Taylor Cutlery's website? I'm also curious, as I have a S&W Swat knife here.
Thanks!
Dan
- Joined
- Dec 16, 1998
- Messages
- 1,066
Smith and Wesson has nothing more to do with the Smith and Wesson Knives than to have sold the rights to use their name and trademark to Taylor Cutlery. They don't contribute to, nor will they be held responsible for, the design, manufacturing, QA, customer service, etc. of the knives. To be blunt, and somewhat vulgar, they have prostituted their name and reputation for money so that Taylor Cutlery can profit from their reputation. Think of Yugo having bought the right to mark and market their cars as Smith and Wessons. This is in contrast to Baretta which has a knife division or Remington Knives which is part of Remington Firearms. The Colt knives may be in the same boat as Smith and Wesson.
Take care,
Mike
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TANSTAAFL
Take care,
Mike
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TANSTAAFL
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
hso has it exactly right, from what I know of the situation. In any case, I've been mostly unimpressed with Taylor's S&W line, and the stories I've heard from knifemakers of Taylor making knives suspiciously close to their custom knives without licensing kinda chaps my hide.
Joe
Joe
I called Taylor Cutlery and asked what the steel was. The woman I was talking to said it was 440 stainless, but she didn't know if it was 440A or C or what. She also said she didn't know the hardness. She said to call back later and ask the owner. I called back and she said the owner didn't know either. All he knew was that it was 440 stainless. In the ad it says it's high carbon. Since it is a rescue knife that would be exposed to some prying, I would think knowing how hard it is would tell how brittle it may be. Since it is known to be 440, do you think it has a good blade? I want to get a friend, an EMT/Firefighter, a gift for his b-day and I don't want to get him junk. I really like the striker in the knife. The more I think about it, the worse I feel about making a purchase. It's just too chancy to fork out $60 for a knife when even the owner hardly knows what it is.
Get a Meyerco instead. Both were designed by Blackie Collins, and are almost exactly the same. I think it's even called the same thing. Meyerco uses AUS8A, so it's a little better steel. And, your not supporting a company that profits off of another's stolen work.
By the way - I am not only guilty of buying a ripoff S&W, but I even posted a good review of it. After I was educated by the forumites, I got the review deleted.
Every few months, SMKW has a manufacturer's rep day. I always attend. You get to meet a lot of folks, especially the Case people. At the last one, I spoke with Blackie for a while. Managed to convince me to buy one. I haven't regretted it.
This is the only Meyerco I'd recommend. I have a StrutNCut Rascal, which is a nice design, but poorly executed. Too bad someone like Case or Buck didn't produce this knife. A very useful design, but neither S&W aka Taylor nor Meyerco carried it off well. Meyerco has the edge though.
Ray
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Knowledge without understanding is knowledge wasted.
Understanding without knowledge is a rare gift - but not an impossibility.
For the impossible is always possible through faith. - Bathroom graffiti, gas station, Grey, TN, Dec, 1988
AKTI Member #A000831
[This message has been edited by Codeman (edited 12 October 1999).]
By the way - I am not only guilty of buying a ripoff S&W, but I even posted a good review of it. After I was educated by the forumites, I got the review deleted.
Every few months, SMKW has a manufacturer's rep day. I always attend. You get to meet a lot of folks, especially the Case people. At the last one, I spoke with Blackie for a while. Managed to convince me to buy one. I haven't regretted it.
This is the only Meyerco I'd recommend. I have a StrutNCut Rascal, which is a nice design, but poorly executed. Too bad someone like Case or Buck didn't produce this knife. A very useful design, but neither S&W aka Taylor nor Meyerco carried it off well. Meyerco has the edge though.
Ray
------------------
Knowledge without understanding is knowledge wasted.
Understanding without knowledge is a rare gift - but not an impossibility.
For the impossible is always possible through faith. - Bathroom graffiti, gas station, Grey, TN, Dec, 1988
AKTI Member #A000831
[This message has been edited by Codeman (edited 12 October 1999).]
- Joined
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I saw one of those Home Shopping Network shows a few months ago and many of the knives they advertised had "440" steel, but they didn't bother to tell what type of 440 it is. These types of general statements should set off alarm bells in any consumer. If it was a good steel, like 440-C, then they would be bragging about it.
- Joined
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The Smith and Wesson knives (quite popular by the way) don't use high tech steel. They use steel typical of the "surgical stainless" description. I can't tell you which one exactly but I hope you don't expect 440V or VG-10 for the relatively modest price of a S&W knife. 440A would be a good guess but it's just a guess. Take care.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
Taylor cutlery is notorious for questionable entegrity. The SWAT knives were one of the more obvious to us that know the custom it was styled after. The last time I looked at one of thier knives it was 420J from Taiwan.
These knives are definatly not to bet your life on. There are good knives that come out of Taiwan. You can trust the imports from Outdoor Edge,Columbia River Knife and Tool for two examples. If you want a 100% tuff utility folder for the money get a Magna. For a good pocket knife look at the Mirage.
These are just two examples of the quality
cutlery available from there.
Cheers,
ts
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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
These knives are definatly not to bet your life on. There are good knives that come out of Taiwan. You can trust the imports from Outdoor Edge,Columbia River Knife and Tool for two examples. If you want a 100% tuff utility folder for the money get a Magna. For a good pocket knife look at the Mirage.
These are just two examples of the quality
cutlery available from there.
Cheers,
ts
------------------
Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 1,838
Jeez; I have given all my kids the First Response knife. I do not, however expect them to even use the blade. It is a POS, quite frankly, very loose in the scales and of only fair construction at best.
You don't use the blade. You use the spring loaded tungsten carbide penetrator in the hilt to break tempered glass in a car, should you become entraped. Yep, you can do the same thing hitting the glass with a prybar, but if there is structual damage, or you are injured, you might not have room to swing it hard enough, or be able to swing it all. So, this gives you a way out of the car.
My kids have enough Sebenzas, Mad Dogs, Wamblis, and trauma shears to cut themselves out of any situation. They do not depend on the blade of the 911. I had even forgot it had one.
Hope this helps, Walt Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine
You don't use the blade. You use the spring loaded tungsten carbide penetrator in the hilt to break tempered glass in a car, should you become entraped. Yep, you can do the same thing hitting the glass with a prybar, but if there is structual damage, or you are injured, you might not have room to swing it hard enough, or be able to swing it all. So, this gives you a way out of the car.
My kids have enough Sebenzas, Mad Dogs, Wamblis, and trauma shears to cut themselves out of any situation. They do not depend on the blade of the 911. I had even forgot it had one.
Hope this helps, Walt Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine
Smith & Wesson knives claimed in several publications I can recall that the "S.W.A.T." series used "hammer-forged 440C."
This seems like pure nonsense to me. I do not forge but I understand that 440C responds very poorly to it. The Germans drop-forge some fantastic 440C blades, but about the only people who "hammer forge" folders are exotic makers like Larry Feugen.
As far as the First Response is concerned, I think Walt's concerns for auto safety are admirable and well-informed. I'd recommend a center-punch, available at your local hardware store for $10-$20. This does not incorporate a knife blade (which might be as much harm as good), but its striker is also not prone to flying across the room like a projectile, something I have witnessed on the First Response.
-Drew
This seems like pure nonsense to me. I do not forge but I understand that 440C responds very poorly to it. The Germans drop-forge some fantastic 440C blades, but about the only people who "hammer forge" folders are exotic makers like Larry Feugen.
As far as the First Response is concerned, I think Walt's concerns for auto safety are admirable and well-informed. I'd recommend a center-punch, available at your local hardware store for $10-$20. This does not incorporate a knife blade (which might be as much harm as good), but its striker is also not prone to flying across the room like a projectile, something I have witnessed on the First Response.
-Drew
- Joined
- Feb 22, 1999
- Messages
- 465
For the record, 420-J2 is the steel of choice in S&W knives. The 3" Swat blade is etched "Hammer Forged" and this is total BS as Corduroy has pointed out. I have also seen the Swat advertised as "Made in USA" however it is produced in Taiwan from start to finish. I don't know how S&W gets around the customs marking rule but the back of the pivot is marked "R.O.C-PAT." (Republic of China) Not an acceptable country of origin mark by customs guidelines. I also don't know what PAT stands for because there is nothing patented here.
The bottom line is everything S&W does in the presentation of their knives is a little misleading to the consumer and yes, they do sell a huge volume of knives. Their quality is OK are they are priced fair however their business/marketing practices are questionable at best.
IMO there are much better quality Taiwan made knives available for the same price from CRKT and yours truly (Self promotional plug). Also BMW, thanks for the good words on the Magna (Second and final plug).
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Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.
David Bloch
See our Online Catalog at: http://www.outdooredge.com
[This message has been edited by David Bloch (edited 16 October 1999).]
The bottom line is everything S&W does in the presentation of their knives is a little misleading to the consumer and yes, they do sell a huge volume of knives. Their quality is OK are they are priced fair however their business/marketing practices are questionable at best.
IMO there are much better quality Taiwan made knives available for the same price from CRKT and yours truly (Self promotional plug). Also BMW, thanks for the good words on the Magna (Second and final plug).
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Sincerely,
Outdoor Edge Cutlery Corp.
David Bloch
See our Online Catalog at: http://www.outdooredge.com
[This message has been edited by David Bloch (edited 16 October 1999).]