Smoke request / need to share

Cchu, dang man! That's pretty big for an IJ cross! Must be the Jungle coming through.

The mites were likely introduced with the Carpet Python. I was told by the shop owners that it was being treated for mites at the time, and to assume it has more. I quarantined and treated using a different mite spray, but I guess it wasn't 100% effective. Khukoo, in the future I will quarantine for longer and treat with PAM, because you're spot on: prevention is absolutely the priority.

This morning's update: snakes are all OK, but I'm actually seeing some other life too. Fungus gnats are flying, isopods crawling, and much to my dismay, there are definitely still some mites on the boa. Not big, blood-filled adults like before, but still there. Kinda frustrating. I dunno if I didn't spray enough, waited too long before putting snakes back in, or maybe I should have bathed the snakes in a different formula to rid them of mites that were on them.

My plan right now is to retreat in 1 week rather than 2. I'll apply the spray more heavily and try to treat the snakes themselves. I have this organic enzyme-based cleaner, called Kleen-Free, that will also kill mites. Bathing them in the solution does work, I've done it before, just for temporary relief. The enzymes actually send the mites into a premature molting cycle, and this "forced molt" leads to them dying. Still not effective on eggs though, I don't think.

Shav, the beauty about the microsystem is that it is usually both self sustaining and self correcting. The key is biodiversity. Ever notice that a tomato garden is a pain to keep healthy, but you don't have to do much to keep a forest going? Same idea. The more organisms there are working together, the stronger the biological web. I had at least 5 types of beneficials in the tanks, excluding all that beneficial bacteria, and they do a wonderful job at keeping everything in order. I've even had flowers bloom and rebloom in tanks, I'm guessing the gnats did some pollinating. All in all, it's a very stable system. Apparently, even the chemicals are having a hard time nixing all forms of life.

Also, I was pretty scientific about bioactivating my soil. Some people aren't. It's a totally viable option to just go out in the woods, scoop up some dirt, maybe grab a piece of rotting wood, and stir them into your substrate. There's enough diversity in nature that all the pests have predators, and no species starts to grow out of control. To each their own, the important bit is to do the research.
 
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Smokes up buddy. There are a bunch of critter lovers on the forum. We all know what it feels like to worry about the helpless little lives that share our homes. I hope those damn mites will be gone forever!
 
Here's my dubia setup the rack keeps them out of their poop. I've raised close to 150000 of them in the last 10 years.

In 2008 when the recession hit I started really breeding them by raising their ambient temp to 90 degrees in closets. I would give them away to folks who lost their jobs and couldn't feed their pets.

 
SG, how are the kids getting along? I sent you an email, not sure if you received it, they often do not going through the BF. Hope all is well.
 
Thanks again guys. Your support means a lot to me.

BB, didn't get an email. I'll shoot you one from my personal to yours. I think I have that floating around.

Right now I'm planning on reapplying PAM this weekend, as I'm pretty sure I just didn't give it enough the first time. I still see a bunch of mites on the boa. If it doesn't work next time, I'll have to seriously consider gutting the viv and/or treating the snake in quarantine. I think the boa tank was too humid for the predatory mites, or maybe it's just so bioactive that they couldn't colonize. For whatever reason, they were very effective in the other 2 tanks.
 
Its the reproduction cycle of the mites. Aka the eggs. If you don't get em all in one swoop it starts all over again.

The very best way to fix it is to do a gut of the Viv and then quarantine the snake on paper towel substrate, water bowl and hide only.

We actually take the opposite approach. We give our animals lots of out time. But their cages are somewhat sparse. And we use paper towel substrate to make it easy to find poop and stuff. Prevents chance of getting sepsis and other problems. But there's lots of difft approaches. Since the mites were introduced its an event that doesn't happen very often.
 
You're absolutely right chhu, it's the reproductive cycle that makes them such a pain. That's part of why I started with the predatory mites, since those will eat eggs, adults, and every stage in between. They say 1 predatory mite will eat about 1-6 eggs or mites per day. Since there were around 25000 predators introduced, it had a drastic effect on the snake mite population in the corn and python tanks. I've got a few theories.

The reason I'm not jumping to gutting the vivs is that the PAM is supposed to be effective for 2 weeks, thus killing any mites that hatch and any that were on the snake prior to it's reintroduction to the treated tank. In theory, reapplying every 2 weeks for a solid 2 or 3 applications should be all it takes.

Having said that, I am aware that, unfortunately, the only surefire method to fix the problem in 1 shot would be gutting everything and treating the snakes in quarantine. If it gets to that point, I'll do that, but I'm gonna try all the other options first.
 
Good luck you sound like you really care and are vested in your animals and how they live! Too many herp keepers think of their pets like Pokémon cards on the ready to trade them out. My herps are all part of the family so we invest a lot in their well being!
 
PAM was not working as well as expected. Killed mites at first, but the next morning some were still visible, looking as healthy as ever. I tried using about double the recommended amount, and still no luck. Decided it's time to cut to the chase, and just take them to the vet for shots. I really really hate having to resort to this, because I know the vet trips and shots are stressful for them, and I saw my corn snake's behavior change the last time he got shots. But the time has come.

It'll be about $10 a shot, and 3 rounds of shots for each snake. Plus the initial exam fee for the two snakes that haven't been to the vet before. All in all, it'll be yet another good chunk of change, but hopefully the last. Then maybe my teeth will start to grow back, and I can get more khukuris!

Here's to the home stretch. Thanks again to everyone for the support.

This is a pic of the Brazilian Rainbow Boa in his tank, with a blooming Cryptanthus acaulis

 
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SingleGrind said:
Cchu, dang man! That's pretty big for an IJ cross! Must be the Jungle coming through.

The mites were likely introduced with the Carpet Python. I was told by the shop owners that it was being treated for mites at the time, and to assume it has more. I quarantined and treated using a different mite spray, but I guess it wasn't 100% effective. Khukoo, in the future I will quarantine for longer and treat with PAM, because you're spot on: prevention is absolutely the priority.

This morning's update: snakes are all OK, but I'm actually seeing some other life too. Fungus gnats are flying, isopods crawling, and much to my dismay, there are definitely still some mites on the boa. Not big, blood-filled adults like before, but still there. Kinda frustrating. I dunno if I didn't spray enough, waited too long before putting snakes back in, or maybe I should have bathed the snakes in a different formula to rid them of mites that were on them.

My plan right now is to retreat in 1 week rather than 2. I'll apply the spray more heavily and try to treat the snakes themselves. I have this organic enzyme-based cleaner, called Kleen-Free, that will also kill mites. Bathing them in the solution does work, I've done it before, just for temporary relief. The enzymes actually send the mites into a premature molting cycle, and this "forced molt" leads to them dying. Still not effective on eggs though, I don't think.

Shav, the beauty about the microsystem is that it is usually both self sustaining and self correcting. The key is biodiversity. Ever notice that a tomato garden is a pain to keep healthy, but you don't have to do much to keep a forest going? Same idea. The more organisms there are working together, the stronger the biological web. I had at least 5 types of beneficials in the tanks, excluding all that beneficial bacteria, and they do a wonderful job at keeping everything in order. I've even had flowers bloom and reblom in tanks, I'm guessing the gnats did some pollinating. All in all, it's a very stable system. Apparently, even the chemicals are having a hard time nixing all forms of life.

Also, I was pretty scientific about bioactivating my soil. Some people aren't. It's a totally viable option to just go out in the woods, scoop up some dirt, maybe grab a piece of rotting wood, and stir them into your substrate. There's enough diversity in nature that all the pests have predators, and no species starts to grow out of control. To each their own, the important bit is to do the research.
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I am not an expert on snakes, heck, not an expert on much of anything, but one of my hobbies for the past twenty years or so has been growing bonsai trees. A bonsai can get covered with mites (I know, not the same kind you are talking about) and can actually die from them. One method used to kill them is to spray the plant with mineral oil or another light type of oil. I wonder if you oiled the snakes, shouldn't hurt them, if it would smother your mites and the eggs? You could also spray all the plants with the oil without harming them. Probably a silly idea.
 
Thanks philll!! His name is Veja, which means "look!" in Portuguese.

David, that's not a silly idea at all. I've heard of people rubbing down snakes with olive oil in order to treat mites. The issue for me is that none of them use bioactive vivariums, and even then they've had mixed results. I'm also not sure if will kill the eggs. I also want an active solution; the predatory mites didn't work, so it was time for a chemical solution. The snakes have already had to deal with them long enough, and just like plants, they can die from being overwhelmed by mites. They get really dehydrated and lethargic, and will often go off feed due to the stress. I've been extremely lucky, but the python is visibly dehydrated. She gets a bath tomorrow.

Treatment-wise, the deed is now done. Veja and Malya (the Carpet Python) both got their first shots of Ivermectin today, and that should begin metabolizing soon. Kaiba the Corn snake has his appointment tomorrow. So any mite that bites my little buddies from here on out is as good as dead :)
 
SingleGrind said:
Thanks philll!! His name is Veja, which means "look!" in Portuguese.

David, that's not a silly idea at all. I've heard of people rubbing down snakes with olive oil in order to treat mites. The issue for me is that none of them use bioactive vivariums, and even then they've had mixed results. I'm also not sure if will kill the eggs. I also want an active solution; the predatory mites didn't work, so it was time for a chemical solution. The snakes have already had to deal with them long enough, and just like plants, they can die from being overwhelmed by mites. They get really dehydrated and lethargic, and will often go off feed due to the stress. I've been extremely lucky, but the python is visibly dehydrated. She gets a bath tomorrow.

Treatment-wise, the deed is now done. Veja and Malya (the Carpet Python) both got their first shots of Ivermectin today, and that should begin metabolizing soon. Kaiba the Corn snake has his appointment tomorrow. So any mite that bites my little buddies from here on out is as good as dead :)
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Another method used in horticulture to control mites without damaging the environment is spray the plants with a mixture of dishsoap and water. When one of my trees gets infested with mites, I spay several times a day for a week or more. The spay blocks the insects respiratory system and also smothers the eggs. Anyway, good luck and it seems you may have the situation under control:):thumbup:
 
Good to hear that the shots will fix the problem, while sorry to hear you had to resort to that. As you said Vet trips and shots are always stressful for the critter involved and with snakes my (completely ignorant) opinion is that it probably isn't good for them to be stressed much. Are you going to gut the Vivs just to make sure no mites survive to come back later or will the shots protect the snakes well enough that the Vivicultures can stay?
 
David, I'm also familiar with the soapy water method. Diluted rubbing alcohol works as well. The other thing to keep in mind is that the snake mites can lay eggs on the snakes, but their primary breeding area is in the leaf litter and topsoil. So even if oiling the snake killed all the mites/eggs on its body, there would still be lots crawling around the soil. I'd have to somehow coat all the soil in oil.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I do tropical plant care as my job..so I've heard a few tricks for different pests :)

Shav, you're spot on about stress. Stress alone is enough to kill a reptile, and unfortunately, that can often happen with inexperienced keepers (like kids) who overhandle the animals. Plus, like people and really any other animal, they're more prone to illness if constantly stressed.

I'm not planning on gutting the vivs right now. The mites need to feed on snake blood in order to breed, so the shots should be enough to deal with it. Any mites that hatch will die after their first "meal." The vet said this stuff can also be diluted and used as a spray, if I want, but I don't think I'll even do that.

Overall, it's kind of a win-win. The spray didn't totally kill off the vivs, so they don't really need to be restarted, and the snakes all get checkups, which I needed to do anyways. The only one who didn't make out was my wallet, but I have a special "reptile savings" account which will cover that front.
 
SingleGrind said:
David, I'm also familiar with the soapy water method. Diluted rubbing alcohol works as well. The other thing to keep in mind is that the snake mites can lay eggs on the snakes, but their primary breeding area is in the leaf litter and topsoil. So even if oiling the snake killed all the mites/eggs on its body, there would still be lots crawling around the soil. I'd have to somehow coat all the soil in oil.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I do tropical plant care as my job..so I've heard a few tricks for different pests :)

Shav, you're spot on about stress. Stress alone is enough to kill a reptile, and unfortunately, that can often happen with inexperienced keepers (like kids) who overhandle the animals. Plus, like people and really any other animal, they're more prone to illness if constantly stressed.

I'm not planning on gutting the vivs right now. The mites need to feed on snake blood in order to breed, so the shots should be enough to deal with it. Any mites that hatch will die after their first "meal." The vet said this stuff can also be diluted and used as a spray, if I want, but I don't think I'll even do that.

Overall, it's kind of a win-win. The spray didn't totally kill off the vivs, so they don't really need to be restarted, and the snakes all get checkups, which I needed to do anyways. The only one who didn't make out was my wallet, but I have a special "reptile savings" account which will cover that front.
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Well, heck...If I'd known you are a plant specialist I'd have hushed.:o
 
Glad your getting your reptile dysphunkshun under control SG!..He.He!...sorry..just had to say that;) I use ivermectin for flee and tick control for four dogs. I just bring the biggest dog in to the vet and they give me six months supply of the stuff. Then i figure the dose per dog weight and divide it accordingly between them. One vet bill and the same package for small dog is same price as for large dog even tho the large dog package has six times the dose for my smallest dog. Wonder if you could figure the dose and get the stuff bulk somewhere and DIY? I know they use the stuff for all kinds of animals and even people to kill parasites.
 
ndoghouse said:
... I use ivermectin for flee and tick control for four dogs...
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I've read say that ivermectin isn't effective for fleas and ticks :confused:, Our dog gets spinosad tablets, though I'm still not really comfortable with the concept of the dog eating the pesticide so that it gets in its blood, sort of poisoning the host in order to kill the parasite.
 
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