Smoothness

[unit]

The polishing seen in the Blade HQ video is to adjust thickness so the pivot can be tightened down all the way on a 21 without being too tight, or too loose. I would argue this is done once at the factory, and if done properly, any more polishing (other than the mild polish suggested by nyefmaker) is just resulting in a looser fit to the knife. Any loose knife will feel smooth.

Respectfully unit, I would go easy on those washers! You can of course get new ones if you thin them out.

Yes, I would go easy on them too. I agree with the other statements that it's not something that the masses should attempt. Not everyone has the same understanding or abilities.

That said, not every Sebenza coming out today is fit the same it is a process done by hand, by people. Those people are not the only ones that have the ability to do the job, and those people are people...who perhaps let one go that is really really close, but It could be better.

But, yeah...it's probably a lot safer to just tell everyone not to do it, because by doing so, you assume that you can do it better than the guys at CRK, and I certainly share the sentiment that most cannot

 

[brownshoe]

The polishing seen in the Blade HQ video is to adjust thickness so the pivot can be tightened down all the way on a 21 without being too tight, or too loose. I would argue this is done once at the factory, and if done properly, any more polishing (other than the mild polish suggested by nyefmaker) is just resulting in a looser fit to the knife. Any loose knife will feel smooth.


Respectfully unit, I would go easy on those washers! You can of course get new ones if you thin them out.

Kidcongo is correct. I believe in one of the forum stickies CRK says not to polish the washers.

 

[pvicenzi]

What they show in the video, is a worker fitting the washers to the pivot and blade. If you notice, he measure the fit after a few figure eights on the polishing compound. Any further polishy of the washers ruins the precision fit that we pay so much for.

 

[victorf]

I don't want to come across as argumentative.

***"They came out nicely polished and now I can tighten down the pivot all the way and still have a free swinging blade when the lockbar is depressed. There's also ZERO blade play side to side. I've cranked on it and I've never been able to feel any movement. so I highly doubt that I thinned them out too much. I would say that before doing it, the washers were just a little too thick"***

However:

Feel is subjective, unless a person is able to calibrate the so called "feel" with the use of his hands. The very reason, Mr. Starrett implemented "Ratchet Stop" on their lines of precision micrometers to eliminate the questionable "feel", used by experienced hands, in order to verify repeatable accuracy.

If there is, absolutely "ZERO" blade play, in reality, there is no measurable clearance between mating parts. Lets play with that "ZERO" blade play condition, when pivot is "CRANKED DOWN", already with "ZERO" side play - blade certainly will bind and not be able to "MOVE"!

However, as my "measured" .0006" untouched side clearance from the pivot bushing. The meager "side play" from the factory, if one is to clamp knife handle securely, in a vise, put a Best Test Indicator, having 0001" or lower tolerance, on the side of my blade - it will repeat the .0006" side play. Which, is a home for the lubricating grease to enhance movement and cut down friction, in the event bronze washer came into contact with pivoting tang.

In a nutshell, the only way is to measure, in order to verify - play/no play.

Such as CRK's Moto: "Think Twice - Cut Once". Or in the land of precision: "Measured Twice - Cut Once".

In other words, in this case, a little is good but a lot, well....to some - smooth as butter!

Again, bottom line - its your knife.

 

[Krissig12]

I don't want to come across as argumentative.

***"They came out nicely polished and now I can tighten down the pivot all the way and still have a free swinging blade when the lockbar is depressed. There's also ZERO blade play side to side. I've cranked on it and I've never been able to feel any movement. so I highly doubt that I thinned them out too much. I would say that before doing it, the washers were just a little too thick"***

However:

Feel is subjective, unless a person is able to calibrate the so called "feel" with the use of his hands. The very reason, Mr. Starrett implemented "Ratchet Stop" on their lines of precision micrometers to eliminate the questionable "feel", used by experienced hands, in order to verify repeatable accuracy.

If there is, absolutely "ZERO" blade play, in reality, there is no measurable clearance between mating parts. Lets play with that "ZERO" blade play condition, when pivot is "CRANKED DOWN", already with "ZERO" side play - blade certainly will bind and not be able to "MOVE"!

However, as my "measured" .0006" untouched side clearance from the pivot bushing. The meager "side play" from the factory, if one is to clamp knife handle securely, in a vise, put a Best Test Indicator, having 0001" or lower tolerance, on the side of my blade - it will repeat the .0006" side play. Which, is a home for the lubricating grease to enhance movement and cut down friction, in the event bronze washer came into contact with pivoting tang.

In a nutshell, the only way is to measure, in order to verify - play/no play.

Such as CRK's Moto: "Think Twice - Cut Once". Or in the land of precision: "Measured Twice - Cut Once".

In other words, in this case, a little is good but a lot, well....to some - smooth as butter!

Again, bottom line - its your knife.

I have no idea what your trying to say

Do you know how the pivot bushing system works? The bushing sits in a hole in the blade and sticks out ever so slightly from either side of the blade tang, and this gap is filled by the washers. The bushing and washers should line up perfectly flush with one another, making it so that THEY are coming in contact with the titanium slabs. Because of this, it's impossible for there to ever be a situation in which over tightening negatively affects the action when opening and closing the knife. So..... When everything is perfectly fit, you can tighten it down as much as you want and there will be absolute no blade play and it will still move freely.

That's the idea behind it anyway. The problem is that mine and a lot of others seem to come from CRK with washers that are ever so slightly too thick, so when you cranked down the pivot, there would be problems with the stiffness upon opening because the washers would be too far out past the ends of the bushing, creating a situation in which the slabs are putting pressure on the washers which in turn put pressure on the blade. When I took off just a hair from the washers, I fixed this problem, but didn't introduce ANY side to side play. So Id say everything worked out JUUUUST fine

 

[skyhorse]

Simply put, use the knife. It will smooth out over time.

.

:thumbup:

 

[victorf]

I have no idea what your trying to say

Do you know how the pivot bushing system works? The bushing sits in a hole in the blade and sticks out ever so slightly from either side of the blade tang, and this gap is filled by the washers. The bushing and washers should line up perfectly flush with one another, making it so that THEY are coming in contact with the titanium slabs. Because of this, it's impossible for there to ever be a situation in which over tightening negatively affects the action when opening and closing the knife. So..... When everything is perfectly fit, you can tighten it down as much as you want and there will be absolute no blade play and it will still move freely.

That's the idea behind it anyway. The problem is that mine and a lot of others seem to come from CRK with washers that are ever so slightly too thick, so when you cranked down the pivot, there would be problems with the stiffness upon opening because the washers would be too far out past the ends of the bushing, creating a situation in which the slabs are putting pressure on the washers which in turn put pressure on the blade. When I took off just a hair from the washers, I fixed this problem, but didn't introduce ANY side to side play. So Id say everything worked out JUUUUST fine

Lets take another look.

First off, I don't think CRK make their bronze bushing individually from a solid stock bar. Most likely, die stamping from sized sheet stock, resulted having burr on one side. Thus can eliminate thickness inconsistency. Factory hand fit up is normally done to address possible burr exist during manufacturing - hand fit up is the final process to assure smooth functionality of components already made within tight dimensional controls.

Like any precision instruments, it is designed and made in accordance to their tolerance relationship, which provide their ability to mate/fit between each other.

In the case of the 21, pivot, stop pin and stand off bushings length tolerance should be very close to each other. CRK are known to keep their tolerance in the low four decimal range(.0000"). While the sum of the total measurement for the combination of blade tang and the two bronze washers should be less than the pivot, stop pin and standoff bushing length(in my case, the sum was .0012" = .0006" on each side less). In other words, with components kept at close tolerance, 21 can simply be tighten by anyone with little experience, once tighten, all(pivot, stop pin and stand off) bushings are the only ones that comes into solid contact with handle slabs, fit is thus established, at that point, being longer than the sum total measurement of blade tang/two washers - clearance exist and the two bronze washers are free to rotate along with the blade within the confines of the clearance provided by the longer length pivot, stop pin and standoff bushings.

I don't know what your background is, but in order to understand how these few simple pieces fit with each other is having the knowledge and ability to use precision tools. Use these tools to take as found readings. Using the as found readings as a baseline to determine, whether to go one way or another. Thus in the world of precision: Measured Twice - Cut Once!

Case in point: a piece of standard Zerox paper is .005" thick. Average human hair is .003" thick. Advertised CRK tolerance is within four decimals = .0000".

As long as you are happy with what you do and what you know....So...its a moot point, whether - I - "Do you know how the pivot bushing system works? understand or not!

:thumbup:

 

[Krissig12]

Lets take another look.

First off, I don't think CRK make their bronze bushing individually from a solid stock bar. Most likely, die stamping from sized sheet stock, resulted having burr on one side. Thus can eliminate thickness inconsistency. Factory hand fit up is normally done to address possible burr exist during manufacturing - hand fit up is the final process to assure smooth functionality of components already made within tight dimensional controls.

Like any precision instruments, it is designed and made in accordance to their tolerance relationship, which provide their ability to mate/fit between each other.

In the case of the 21, pivot, stop pin and stand off bushings length tolerance should be very close to each other. CRK are known to keep their tolerance in the low four decimal range(.0000"). While the sum of the total measurement for the combination of blade tang and the two bronze washers should be less than the pivot, stop pin and standoff bushing length(in my case, the sum was .0012" = .0006" on each side less). In other words, with components kept at close tolerance, 21 can simply be tighten by anyone with little experience, once tighten, all(pivot, stop pin and stand off) bushings are the only ones that comes into solid contact with handle slabs, fit is thus established, at that point, being longer than the sum total measurement of blade tang/two washers - clearance exist and the two bronze washers are free to rotate along with the blade within the confines of the clearance provided by the longer length pivot, stop pin and standoff bushings.

I don't know what your background is, but in order to understand how these few simple pieces fit with each other is having the knowledge and ability to use precision tools. Use these tools to take as found readings. Using the as found readings as a baseline to determine, whether to go one way or another. Thus in the world of precision: Measured Twice - Cut Once!

Case in point: a piece of standard Zerox paper is .005" thick. Average human hair is .003" thick. Advertised CRK tolerance is within four decimals = .0000".

As long as you are happy with what you do and what you know....So...its a moot point, whether - I - "Do you know how the pivot bushing system works? understand or not!

:thumbup:

Once again I'm terribly confused.......

You do realize that a lot of what you said, I already described in my last post, right? So between your lack of comprehension and what seems like an inability to form logical ideas into sentences, I'm not sure what to say to you anymore.

Hell, I'm not even sure what the issue is anyway? As best as I can tell,your post is trying to "teach" me something about Chris reeves tolerances and how the pivot bushing system works, but Im already fully aware of these things and require no explaination from you.....

Besides, my knife is now PERFECT, so I have no idea why you're arguing with me in the first place
You cant argue with results...... The fact that you are makes me wonder whether you are a) just trying to mindlessly defend CRK, while disregarding any factual evidence that shows my alterations actually IMPROVED the knife. Or b) you didn't understand where I was at, and were genuinely trying to explain how the bushing system and tolerences worked on the sebenza, in which case Irefer back to my statement that you have a lack of comprehension of what I was trying to say in my previous posts

I think there's a problem with communication more than anything else. I don't understand you, and you don't understand me. Oh well, I guess it's not important. My knife is fine now, so I see no need to continue any sort of conversation on the matter

 

[unit]

Once again I'm terribly confused.......

You do realize that a lot of what you said, I already described in my last post, right? So between your lack of comprehension and what seems like an inability to form logical ideas into sentences, I'm not sure what to say to you anymore.

Hell, I'm not even sure what the issue is anyway? As best as I can tell,your post is trying to "teach" me something about Chris reeves tolerances and how the pivot bushing system works, but Im already fully aware of these things and require no explaination from you.....

Besides, my knife is now PERFECT, so I have no idea why you're arguing with me in the first place
You cant argue with results...... The fact that you are makes me wonder whether you are a) just trying to mindlessly defend CRK, while disregarding any factual evidence that shows my alterations actually IMPROVED the knife. Or b) you didn't understand where I was at, and were genuinely trying to explain how the bushing system and tolerences worked on the sebenza, in which case Irefer back to my statement that you have a lack of comprehension of what I was trying to say in my previous posts

I think there's a problem with communication more than anything else. I don't understand you, and you don't understand me. Oh well, I guess it's not important. My knife is fine now, so I see no need to continue any sort of conversation on the matter

Yes make some interesting points. I'm guessing that you won't be permitted to see the work he claims to have done either

I'm glad that you got your knife working well again. Your satisfaction with your knife is really all that matters anyway.

Carry on

 

[unit]

Double postage!

Sweet.

Double post means it's time for bacon!

 

[Krissig12]

Thanks unit:thumbup:

And nice bacon

 

[victorf]

Once again I'm terribly confused.......

You do realize that a lot of what you said, I already described in my last post, right? So between your lack of comprehension and what seems like an inability to form logical ideas into sentences, I'm not sure what to say to you anymore.

Hell, I'm not even sure what the issue is anyway? As best as I can tell,your post is trying to "teach" me something about Chris reeves tolerances and how the pivot bushing system works, but Im already fully aware of these things and require no explaination from you.....

Besides, my knife is now PERFECT, so I have no idea why you're arguing with me in the first place
You cant argue with results...... The fact that you are makes me wonder whether you are a) just trying to mindlessly defend CRK, while disregarding any factual evidence that shows my alterations actually IMPROVED the knife. Or b) you didn't understand where I was at, and were genuinely trying to explain how the bushing system and tolerences worked on the sebenza, in which case Irefer back to my statement that you have a lack of comprehension of what I was trying to say in my previous posts

I think there's a problem with communication more than anything else. I don't understand you, and you don't understand me. Oh well, I guess it's not important. My knife is fine now, so I see no need to continue any sort of conversation on the matter

Judging from your response, you are lacking knowledge in the basic area of precision machining. I was set out without any malice and try to help you or whoever understand - that it is not a good idea to thin out the washers without knowing basic dimensions first. But enough of that, I can move on!

Yes make some interesting points. I'm guessing that you won't be permitted to see the work he claims to have done either

I'm glad that you got your knife working well again. Your satisfaction with your knife is really all that matters anyway.

Carry on

I see that you remembered!!! I have the satisfaction that you and your likes will "NEVER" see the inside of my Insingo!!

***

Suffice to say, since this is among one of many areas of my expertise - what appears to be simple machining, where, a capable machinist/toolmaker type - without seeing, can duplicate, simply based on verbal descriptions alone and might even come out with improvements!

Basing on what you have posted - just this very thread, alone, on "smoothness" - I get that - you are among others - lacking in these area!

***

Resort to sarcasm, again?....is certainly childish! What contribution is that to "Smoothness"? That is what lead you and your likes to not getting anything from me!!

 

[kidcongo]

Judging from your response, you are lacking knowledge in the basic area of precision machining. I was set out without any malice and try to help you or whoever understand - that it is not a good idea to thin out the washers without knowing basic dimensions first. But enough of that, I can move on!



I see that you remembered!!! I have the satisfaction that you and your likes will "NEVER" see the inside of my Insingo!!

***

Suffice to say, since this is among one of many areas of my expertise - what appears to be simple machining, where, a capable machinist/toolmaker type - without seeing, can duplicate, simply based on verbal descriptions alone and might even come out with improvements!

Basing on what you have posted - just this very thread, alone, on "smoothness" - I get that - you are among others - lacking in these area!

***

Resort to sarcasm, again?....is certainly childish! What contribution is that to "Smoothness"? That is what lead you and your likes to not getting anything from me!!

This is now officially the weirdest thread on BF. If you showed it to someone who was not aware of CRK, or familiar with knives, they would have no friggin idea what was being discussed. 'You and your like will never see the inside of my Insingo'. When you think about it, that's pretty darn funny.

Lets get some mutual respect back into the discussion. We are, of course, all total geniuses because we carry CRK!

 

[unit]

This is now officially the weirdest thread on BF. If you showed it to someone who was not aware of CRK, or familiar with knives, they would have no friggin idea what was being discussed. 'You an your like will never see the inside of my Insingo'. When you think about it, that's pretty darn funny.

Lets get some mutual respect back into the discussion.

I agree.

The point of the thread was to figure out how to get this knife to operate smoothly, that is done. I think we are finished here

 

[Krissig12]

I agree.

The point of the thread was to figure out how to get this knife to operate smoothly, that is done. I think we are finished here

Do you guys think I should go ahead and close it?

 

[victorf]

I have no idea what your trying to say

Do you know how the pivot bushing system works? The bushing sits in a hole in the blade and sticks out ever so slightly from either side of the blade tang, IN and this gap is filled by the washers.***HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY IN TERMS OF MEASUREMENT IN DECIMALS?*** The bushing and washers should line up perfectly flush with one another, making it so that THEY are coming in contact with the titanium slabs. Because of this, it's impossible for there to ever be a situation in which over tightening negatively affects the action when opening and closing the knife. So..... When everything is perfectly fit, you can tighten it down as much as you want and there will be absolute no blade play and it will still move freely.

That's the idea behind it anyway. The problem is that mine and a lot of others seem to come from CRK with washers that are ever so slightly too thick,***AGAIN, AS ABOVE MEASUREMENTS, PLEASE!*** so when you cranked down the pivot, there would be problems with the stiffness upon opening because the washers would be too far out past the ends of the bushing, creating a situation in which the slabs are putting pressure on the washers which in turn put pressure on the blade. When I took off just a hair from the washers,***Again, how can you quantify in decimal?*** I fixed this problem, but didn't introduce ANY side to side play. So Id say everything worked out JUUUUST fine

EMPHASIS: WITHOUT ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS, ANY ARBITRARY REMOVAL OF MATERIAL FROM THE WASHERS ARE JUST TAKING THINGS FOR GRANTED. BUT LOOSE FITTING DOES GIVE THE IMPRESSION OF SMOOTHNESS!

Do you guys think I should go ahead and close it?

It is showing more ignorance from a few on these subject! But, not all is lost, as I have gained the insights on a few personalities

Indeed, this thread is not being productive, in light of not having any machining trade knowledge and not accept it is A BAD IDEA TO REMOVE ANY MATERIAL, WITHOUT KNOWING THE DIMENSION ON THE PARTS TO BEGIN WITH - CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED LACKING UNDERSTANDING OF RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FIT AND TOLERANCE.

BRAH, it is clear, my post sounds like Russian to a few! But not all is lost, as I came away gaining a few insights on a few personalities.

 

[unit]

Epic Christmas spirit!

 

[MTURBO]

Just wow!!

 

[blade man]

So victorf, can we see the inside of your Insingo?

 

[kidcongo]

Here is the inside of my Insingo: