Snake bites...

[Bob W]

Just curious, what is the down side with suction devices if applied properly within seconds of the bit?
Are they just not worth the hassle even if a small amount of venom is removed?

Thanks

Dr William Forgey is one the leading experts in outdoor wilderness medicine. He was an adjunct professor at Western Illinois University when I was a Recreation student there. I don't know what Dr. Forgey or other experts recommend now, but back in the day he said if you're going to carry a suction device, get one of these:

Never used one on a snakebite, but they seem to minimize the reaction from mosquito bites if used right away.

The little squeeze-suction devices that were popular in the '70s are worthless.

 

[Bob W]

I have also noticed they don't always rattle. Almost stepped on one because of this. The snake could have tagged me as was within easy striking distance but it didn't. Most critters aren't looking for trouble though sometimes people are. LOL! They're really hard to see unless your eye has picked them out. I know that's a silly thing to say but their patterns seem to override the passing eye's "oh that's a snake" ID often.

Both of the people I know who have been seriously bitten were just walking by when a non-rattling rattlesnake struck out from hiding. Each was bitten on the leg. Prairie rattles most likely, that's about all there are around here.

 

[Woods Walker]

A appreciate it when snakes give a big loud buzzy rattle in advance, way in advance.

In the US I don't worry about it at all. Even with a fang injection there's no life-or-death rush to race to the hospital. Might get sick for a while, lose some flesh, and spend a few days at the hospital.

In Australia, on the other hand... I just try not to think about it. Most of the snakes I've seen have been red-bellied blacksnakes. They are venomous, but not deadly and rarely aggressive. All the ones I've seen have raced away to hide.

I wouldn't have to worry about dying from a snakebite if I saw one of these. Probably die of fright.

Before the advent of an antivenin, there are no known survivors of a Taipan bite, and death typically occurs within an hour.​

And this is only the fifth most venomous snake. Three of the other four also live in Australia.

Believe it or not I think we have a higher bite numbers and fatality percentage than Australia when all the numbers are crunched. Maybe it's an aspect of our Pit vipers beyond just toxicity aka temperament, proximity to people etc etc etc. Or could be an issue of medical care. Or maybe I am wrong as it wouldn't be the first time. Being the most toxic snake around doesn't always make it the most dangerous to humans within a holistic perspective. Also a rattlesnake can kill you. It's no joke and the treatment can be more than just a few days in the hospital. Oh and there is the 80,000.00 dollar plus bill for anti venom to consider if it got yea real good (I think 25% plus are dry bites but not sure). Hope everyone's insurance is paid up. Dang that's a pile of money.

 

[Woods Walker]

Both of the people I know who have been seriously bitten were just walking by when a non-rattling rattlesnake struck out from hiding. Each was bitten on the leg. Prairie rattles most likely, that's about all there are around here.

Yup. Sometimes guessing being in the wrong place and time are just that, the wrong place and time. Probably will happen to me one day as well.

 

[22-rimfire]

I have seen quite a few poisonous snakes in the woods. First thing you need to do is be able to identify them.

If a bite is non-poisonous, wash the wound as best as you can with an antiseptic or at least clean water. They can get infected quite easily.

The easiest place to over look a poisonous snake is in tall grass where you can't see where you make every step. Carry a stick to probe in front of you. Be careful in snakee country. The good side to this is that most poisonous snakes really don't seem to like to be in tall grass. But one might be lying beside a game trail waiting for dinner.

One of the times to be vigilant is when you step out of your vehicle. You are essentially blind at that point. You can drive over a snake and it might just be waiting just below your door and it has been disturbed.

 

[Bob W]

The easiest place to over look a poisonous snake is in tall grass where you can't see where you make every step. Carry a stick to probe in front of you.

That way they're good and pissed off by the time your ankle's in range.

 

[druid189]

I've been exceedingly lucky, in that I've run in to some rattlers but knew they were there [kind of]. Where I hike, it's very common to catch them sunning themselves on rocks but along trails, I ALWAYS have a walking stick to tap on the ground around me. Tapping the stick announces your presence and gets them either scurrying or gets them to rattle to warn you.

Remember that humans detect motion in their peripheral vision...keep your eyes moving left and right. I always tap a walking stick while walking trails.

I do keep a small kit handy though...$15 for peace of mind....
http://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Produc...qid=1425624804&sr=8-1&keywords=snake+bite+kit

If bitten though, you STILL need to seek medical attention. That kit won't get all of the toxin out.

 

[Spiggles]

The current doctrine where I live, is to bandage any affected limb to immobilize and to get to medical help as soon as possible. The hospitals treat the symptoms, and need to know with certainty what the snake was.
Don't get bitten- and you achieve this by looking around, not down. The best bush advice I ever received, was from an old Bushman, who said, "it's better to stub your toe than have no head".
If the terrain is so broken that you have to watch your feet, slow down and scan ahead first.

Of course, we have some snakes that can bite the top of ones head, but if one worries over all the things that can cause harm, then one would never go outside.

Mosquitoes and ticks cause way more deaths than snakes.

Get out there and enjoy.

 

[gadgetgeek]

There have been a couple of studies done independent of the sawyer company, and they showed no effect. There was a retrospective of snakebites where suction was used, and all it did was create a larger wound, and longer healing time. The fact that their reply was pretty much "well, thats because mrmrmrl mrmrml rmrmrlll it works" I don't really trust any of their other products.

As for australia's fatality rate, I've heard that chalked up to compression protocols. I carry two big seto-press bandages in each of my kits. they are 6 inch by 4 yards I think. really good coverage, and calibrated compression. In general anti-venoms are more available here, and more people know what to do. that being said, even a red-belly black will mess you up. Browns and Taipans are a serious threat, but as long as the carpet pythons keep eating the others eggs, I'm happy.

 

[mtangent]

It's difficult to determine how deadly, venomous, dangerous, etc. a snake species is.
Typically, the venom is tested on mice, but mice are not humans.
You can analyse the cause of death stats, but that doesn't take into account population density, cultural habits, or health care quality.

Here is a herpetologist, arguing against the legendary dangerousness of Aussie snakes. http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...MYLR-YRXzdVVUGREX9si2DQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.dGY

 

[Woods Walker]

It's difficult to determine how deadly, venomous, dangerous, etc. a snake species is.
Typically, the venom is tested on mice, but mice are not humans.
You can analyse the cause of death stats, but that doesn't take into account population density, cultural habits, or health care quality.

Here is a herpetologist, arguing against the legendary dangerousness of Aussie snakes. http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...MYLR-YRXzdVVUGREX9si2DQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.dGY

Looks like that herpetologist agrees with me. He goes into other factors as well such as temperament of the snake and it's proximity to people.

 

[Richbat]

I've been exceedingly lucky, in that I've run in to some rattlers but knew they were there [kind of]. Where I hike, it's very common to catch them sunning themselves on rocks but along trails, I ALWAYS have a walking stick to tap on the ground around me. Tapping the stick announces your presence and gets them either scurrying or gets them to rattle to warn you.

Remember that humans detect motion in their peripheral vision...keep your eyes moving left and right. I always tap a walking stick while walking trails.

I do keep a small kit handy though...$15 for peace of mind....
http://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Produc...qid=1425624804&sr=8-1&keywords=snake+bite+kit

If bitten though, you STILL need to seek medical attention. That kit won't get all of the toxin out.

druid189 Where about do you hike in Pa.?Me and my son do some up around Hamburg near Hawk Mountain and a lot around are home town.

 

[Lycosa]

Great thread.
Woods Walker- Thanks for those pix. I love snakes and the Timber Rattler especially.
PM as to where these TR pix were taken.
rolf

 

[Ed Fowler]

My fascination with Rattlers started when I was a little kid, I have handled many and enjoyed my time with them. I only killed one and am sorry I did. Seems like the nature of man dictates that if you do not understand it, kill it. I sought to understand them and did a lot of research and still enjoy them.


I have been bitten by prairie rattlers 3 times. 2 were dry bites, you can tell a dry bite when there is very little pain and only drop or two of blood.

A hot bite is much different - Immediately you will feel like you just got stung by a 50 pound bee. Pain is impressive, lots of blood and swelling starts immediately. My hot bite to my fingers was termed a class 4 which is a lot for a prairie rattler,Crotalis Veridis veridis. He placed it so delicately and with great accuracy I was impressed!

The venom travels through the lymph system. I was swelling up like a town pup rapidly. I placed a couple of rubber bands above the bite on my wrist. By the time we got to the hospital my hand looked like a balloon. No swelling and blood was flowing freely.

Got the the hospital and the Doc said "get those rubber bands off immediately" they took them off and the swelling started traveling rapidly up my arm. The Doc said "get those rubber bands back on above the swelling!"

They called in a specialist and he wanted permission to amputate my fingers, I told him no. He left in a huff.

My hand and arm became extremely swollen!! My fingers were like stuffed sausages, the swelling continued up my arm, they measured the swelling in my arm hourly.

Two full doses of anti venom and the influence of the venom started reducing.

Turned out I was allergic to the venom and the anti-venom.

10 years later my body still shows reactions to the bite. You can expect hives, stiff neck, sudden pains here and there and much more.

Now I know what many of you have or never will experience, I got to see the other side and it is beautiful.

My rubber band treatment is controversial, but it worked, or so I feel. Make your own decisions.

I was in intensive care for thee days, in the hospital for a week.
Many consider the rattle of a rattler a challenge, all they are saying is 'watch out big foot, don't step on me". I feel they are honest, do not want to waste their venom on something they can't eat and are much more honest than those sneaky cotton mouths.

 

[Lycosa]

Thanks, Ed.
I met a cottonmouth expert at Reptiland last year and he told me that the cottonmouth has a very bad undeserved reputation.
rolf

 

[Ed Fowler]

Yes, I should not have denigrated them, I actually know very little about them. Just an attempt at humor.

 

[sideways]

Thanks for the write up Ed.

 

[Lycosa]

Thank you again, Ed.
Sadly, snake-hate is still alive and well. But... attitudes are slowly changing.
rolf

 

[mtangent]

Looks like that herpetologist agrees with me. He goes into other factors as well such as temperament of the snake and it's proximity to people.

He is a bit biased: he implied all Aussie snakes are docile. The Eastern Brown & taipans are not. Eastern Browns are aggressive, I have been chased on numerous occasions, just because I was seen, not for hassling them. I had to run, walking wasn't close to good enough.
He seems to live in West Australia, whereas these 3 snakes live in the Eastern half, so maybe he doesn't have much wild experience with them.

The inland taipan lives in the least populated & visited part of Australia. From my reading, It seems a couple of people have been bitten, but no-one died.
The Eastern Brown lives in the most populated areas, is aggressive, & has potent venom. So no surprise that it has caused the most deaths.
I don't think anyone is keeping track of whether the deaths were due to direct venom reactions, shock, or allergic reactions.
In short, we will never know which snake's venom is worst, & who cares anyway. The only snake that matters is the one close enough to bite you.

 

[druid189]

druid189 Where about do you hike in Pa.? Me and my son do some up around Hamburg near Hawk Mountain and a lot around are home town.

I'm in mid Northampton County so my usual tromps are in the Eastern areas like Wind Gap...the Thunder Swamp Hiking Trail system...Tobyhanna...sometimes Hawk Mountain and Bake Oven Knob....

http://alltrails.com/trail/us/pennsylvania/appalachian-trail-wind-gap-to-fox-gap

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/recreation/hiking/stateforesttrails/thunderswamptrail/

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=HTU534-012

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=HGN129-019

http://alltrails.com/trail/us/pennsylvania/appalachian-trail-bake-oven-knob-to-lehigh-gap

I've also hiked a little bit South of me...Ringing Rocks and Lake Nockamixon....

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=XMR025-019

http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=XMR025-015

All through High School I had a part time job. I saved up as much cash as I could on my Jr and Sr years. I was a Cub and then Boy Scout for much of my childhood and set my sights on a big trip for after graduation.

The Summer after I graduated [1988] I solo'd a good part of the AT through PA. I picked it up at the Wind Gap stretch and ran south to Carlisle, PA. Took me almost a month because I took my time [a rookie hiker's first "big" trek...lol]...Scared and excited at the same time....lost 35 lbs....had blisters the size of pancakes........body ached for DAYS after I got home LOL....

Ahhhhh.......the life of a snot-nosed kid with [almost] no responsibilities.......it was an awesome trip and experience. The only better experiences were the days each of my 3 daughters were born....

Nowadays, I only have time for day/overnight trips and even at that, those trips are sadly coming far and few between. Still have the itch though, even though I'm getting to that age where I should probably start looking into my choice of retirement home LOL.

Still, poisonous snakes are no joke, especially if you trek the Nockamixon area. Water moccasins are NO JOKE there....in that their numbers are only rivaled by the ticks...