Snake bites...

[Woods Walker]

He is a bit biased: he implied all Aussie snakes are docile. The Eastern Brown & taipans are not. Eastern Browns are aggressive, I have been chased on numerous occasions, just because I was seen, not for hassling them. I had to run, walking wasn't close to good enough.
He seems to live in West Australia, whereas these 3 snakes live in the Eastern half, so maybe he doesn't have much wild experience with them.

The inland taipan lives in the least populated & visited part of Australia. From my reading, It seems a couple of people have been bitten, but no-one died.
The Eastern Brown lives in the most populated areas, is aggressive, & has potent venom. So no surprise that it has caused the most deaths.
I don't think anyone is keeping track of whether the deaths were due to direct venom reactions, shock, or allergic reactions.
In short, we will never know which snake's venom is worst, & who cares anyway. The only snake that matters is the one close enough to bite you.

I think the pure numbers speak for themselves not that it really matters. Overall you're right in that an individual's environment ultimately determines their risk. Who is at greater risk of getting tagged by a bullshark, an office worker on the 10th floor or someone fishing the mouth of a river at dust after a good rain with their catch tied to their belt wading though the water?

 

[Ed Fowler]

Some rattlers are docile, the ones that are very aggressive are rare.

The most tame female rattler I ever had was on a major highway, faced down and cars passing over her at 70 + mph.
I picked her up and carried her way off the road and released her, she was really scared. Pick her head up and she would put it right back on the ground. Would have kept her, but was on my way to Blade Show - somehow don't think she would have enjoyed the trip.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

RE; Rattlesnakes.

Sometimes the worst bites (most venom injected) come from juveniles. They have the least experience and tend to inject everything they have when biting, where an adult has had time to learn just how much venom is necessary to paralyze their prey and have some left for a later shot.

Also, older snakes have the experience to know that just a strike will run a potential danger and do not always inject venom. Again, juveniles just blast everything they have.

I don't know about other areas of the country, but down here in Texas, the rapid increase in the feral hog population is affecting our rattlers. Rattlers are part of the feral hog's diets. Just like people have different temperments, so do rattlers. When an irritated rattler rattles, the hogs zero in and attack them. The rattlers that don't rattle quickly are overlooked more often. So the hogs are inducing a genetic selection process to the rattler population by eliminating the "quick to rattle" rattlers, leaving the ones who are less likely to rattle to repopulate.

Every time I have been struck (8x), it has been, luckily, into my boots. My first was when as the lead scout, I mistook a small rattler stretched across the trail at Philmont Scout Ranch for a stick and stepped on it about 6 inches behind the head. It tried to strike but could get all the way around to tag me. Learned quickly "Don't step on sticks. It may not be one." The second time was 2 years later during my second trip to Philmont. I was the third scout in line. The first scout must have woken it up, the second one must have pissed it off and the third one, me, got tagged. Fangs hung in the leather 1/2" below the top edge, minor scratch but no venom. That was the last time I ever walked 3rd.

The rest have been while walking through high pasture grass working along fence lines.

As an EMT, most of my snake bite calls have been on the hands. People sticking their hands somewhere confined or dark w/o looking or picking up brush/trash/etc and getting in the vicinity of a pissed of rattler.

 

[bitfiend]

This is a classic case of an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. I give them space and let um leave.

[video=youtube;kmehI-HT7dg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmehI-HT7dg[/video]

When I was a kid I was a moron & believed that a rattler bite was no big deal, so I routinely hunted and killed them with rocks, and then cut their rattles off.
I did this until I was 16 & delivering pizza. There was a guy I delivered to frequently who came to the door one day with a leg that looked like a carpet roll. His pantleg was cut all the way up the side so he could fit in his pants. Rattler bite.
When it healed, he had a fist-sized chunk of flesh missing from his calf, and he said the whole thing was incredibly painful.

Yeah, leaving them alone is a good idea. Or blast them from a safe distance if you have to.

 

[mclark202]

Happens to me all the time!

 

[Rhinoknives1]

That's a beautiful Emerald Tree Boa you have there!

 

[druid189]

LMAO.....my first thought when I saw this was:

"bites me, eh? ::Ties 'em in a knot::"

LOL

 

[Woods Walker]

Emerald tree boas bite?....... Naaaa.... Never happens.

 

[Phoynix]

Going from the figures I could find.

Australia ~23 million people 5 deaths from 2011-2014
USA ~318 million people 4 deaths from 2011-2014

17 times more likely to die from a snake bite in Australia then the USA during 2011-2014 rather interesting since its extremely divergent from the provided link...

The provided link actually went back in time to when population density was low enough that many countries often had years between snake deaths.. and he then picked the years with the LEAST number in Australian history... pretty shoddy.
1 out of 10 bites being envenomed is also incorrect, it only applies to Brown snake family, all others known are 9 out of 10 bites envenomed that I am aware of.

Also having watched a Tigersnake go from 20m away at my mother and chased her untill my dad got the shotgun and killed it not all Western Australian snakes are timid. it is also illegal to kill snakes and has been for as long as I have been alive in Australia... All Australian wildlife unless otherwise stated by the Gov is protected by default. That said I never heard of anyone being charged for killing snakes.

At the end of the day does it really matter? They are dangerous and one should know how to treat the kind of bites they can get in there region.
I have been bit, my mother and my niece aswell, we have compression bandages to slow the venom down so we can get antivenom.
More then that such as my nieces case, bites often dont present local pain with many Australian snakes, it was only because my mother knew the signs and checked her body that we realized my niece was bitten and got her to hospital, but she still almost died. Had it been someone from the city they may have just thought their child was being grumpy and difficult and left it to late to get them medical attention.

I think the pure numbers speak for themselves not that it really matters. Overall you're right in that an individual's environment ultimately determines their risk. Who is at greater risk of getting tagged by a bullshark, an office worker on the 10th floor or someone fishing the mouth of a river at dust after a good rain with their catch tied to their belt wading though the water?

 

[Woods Walker]

Going from the figures I could find.

Australia ~23 million people 5 deaths from 2011-2014
USA ~318 million people 4 deaths from 2011-2014

17 times more likely to die from a snake bite in Australia then the USA during 2011-2014 rather interesting since its extremely divergent from the provided link...

The provided link actually went back in time to when population density was low enough that many countries often had years between snake deaths.. and he then picked the years with the LEAST number in Australian history... pretty shoddy.
1 out of 10 bites being envenomed is also incorrect, it only applies to Brown snake family, all others known are 9 out of 10 bites envenomed that I am aware of.

Also having watched a Tigersnake go from 20m away at my mother and chased her untill my dad got the shotgun and killed it not all Western Australian snakes are timid. it is also illegal to kill snakes and has been for as long as I have been alive in Australia... All Australian wildlife unless otherwise stated by the Gov is protected by default. That said I never heard of anyone being charged for killing snakes.

At the end of the day does it really matter? They are dangerous and one should know how to treat the kind of bites they can get in there region.
I have been bit, my mother and my niece aswell, we have compression bandages to slow the venom down so we can get antivenom.
More then that such as my nieces case, bites often dont present local pain with many Australian snakes, it was only because my mother knew the signs and checked her body that we realized my niece was bitten and got her to hospital, but she still almost died. Had it been someone from the city they may have just thought their child was being grumpy and difficult and left it to late to get them medical attention.

Do you have the link to your info? In anycase both numbers in terms of total bits and fatalities with population taken into account doesn't show it to be a massive risk in each nation unless it's a case of wrong place or time. I do hang out more than most in rattler country so am probably at higher risk but then again the drunks on the road and I-95 are risky everyday.

 

[2manyknives]

There is a Wikipedia article that lists the five deaths in Australia during those years but it is incomplete. There was a death in Laverton in 2014 not mentioned. There may be others.

In the cases of the death of a Darwin man in 2013 and an Alice Springs man in 2006, neither man realised they had been bitten. Both bites occurred in urban environments.

I spend a lot of time in remote parts of Australia and see plenty of snakes. Most of them try to avoid humans but I have encountered some particularly aggressive snakes over the years, mostly Browns.

 

[Phoynix]

Used WIKI for deaths as I couldnt find any other sources that list current snake bites by country... many list total world snake bites or old information etc.
Rest comes from personal experience and my own snake books.

Do you have the link to your info? In anycase both numbers in terms of total bits and fatalities with population taken into account doesn't show it to be a massive risk in each nation unless it's a case of wrong place or time. I do hang out more than most in rattler country so am probably at higher risk but then again the drunks on the road and I-95 are risky everyday.

 

[Woods Walker]

Used WIKI for deaths as I couldnt find any other sources that list current snake bites by country... many list total world snake bites or old information etc.
Rest comes from personal experience and my own snake books.

I believe your data isn't correct as Wiki states an estimate of 5 per year not over a multi year period aka 2011-2014. The individual cases listed aren't every case near as I can tell unless we are to believe only one person died from snake bite in all of the 1990's which is part of that date pool. Australian snake bite death are estimated to be around 2 per year so you're right on that number. But when one number is divided by 3 and the other is left whole it's no wonder why this conclusion was drawn.

17 times more likely to die from a snake bite in Australia then the USA during 2011-2014 rather interesting since its extremely divergent from the provided link...

Again if you have links proving a 17 times higher mortality rate please provide them. If I am wrong that's cool however will stand my ground till proved otherwise.

 

[Woods Walker]

There is a Wikipedia article that lists the five deaths in Australia during those years but it is incomplete. There was a death in Laverton in 2014 not mentioned. There may be others.

In the cases of the death of a Darwin man in 2013 and an Alice Springs man in 2006, neither man realised they had been bitten. Both bites occurred in urban environments.

I spend a lot of time in remote parts of Australia and see plenty of snakes. Most of them try to avoid humans but I have encountered some particularly aggressive snakes over the years, mostly Browns.

And it's also not complete for the USA and they basically said as much...

At least one type of venomous snake is found in every state except Alaska.[2] It has been estimated that 7,000–8,000 people per year receive venomous bites in the United States, and about 5 of those people die.[3]

 

[Phoynix]

Woods Walker the deaths per year in each country was the "SOURCE".
However since you have serious problems with WIKI and dont agree with them lets take your numbers.

Taking your numbers of 2 per year in Australia and 5 per year in the USA.
US would have to have 28 deaths a year from snakebites to match Australia(2 bites per year) on % of population killed each year by bites.

However we could go further into the data and attempt to further adjust it, for example Australia has a larger % of the population in rural areas which could be deemed increased risk then people living in cities with little natural environments for snakes to live in. Yet once you start down this route you can make the Stats say anything you want.

At the end of the day however it does not matter who has the most fatalities does it? seriously?
Snakes are a danger in most countries around the world, and are sufficient threat people should know how to recognize bite symptoms, know treatment for local bites and general knowledge at identifying snakes.

 

[Codger_64]

Oh I dunno. A "serious threat"? No matter how one juggles statistics, the likelihood of a venomous bite is really quite low. I have a better chance of winning a lottery. Or being struck by lightning ( 26 lightning fatalities in 2014 in the U.S.). Or drowning.

 

[Woods Walker]

At the end of the day however it does not matter who has the most fatalities does it? seriously?
Snakes are a danger in most countries around the world, and are sufficient threat people should know how to recognize bite symptoms, know treatment for local bites and general knowledge at identifying snakes.

I agree with that. However I don't have serious problems with wiki as those numbers aren't mine rather from Wiki. I directly quoted from them from Wiki and even put that info in bold text. The simple fact is not every death has been recorded. I proved that with only one being listed for all of the 90's and another poster showed an example of an individual death in Australia not being listed. So there is no problem on my end with Wiki beyond the obvious verifiable issues. Total reported bites for the USA are around 8-9k Australia 2-3k. So despite claimed super duper toxicity of those Australian snakes the numbers in terms of actual fatalities for those unlucky enough to be tagged aren't really all that different than American venomous snakes.

I think we totally agree the numbers don't totally apply to outdoors people anyways. We are pooled in with those who never have any contact with these critters. Odds are we agree that statistics are localized to individual situations. In a few months I will be intentionally hanging out with the rattlers again in a place which I know they live. Probably wearing shorts, hiking at night and sleeping out. I and other outdoors people are at greater risk than those going to shopping center on the weekends. Even then the risk is low but still there. Treatment costs can be 80,000.00. Recovery painful. So we gotta watch our hands and feet in snake country. Just ask buddy who I didn't find on Wiki rather in the woods.



Enough of this silly internet debating. It just snowed and I am going hiking!

 

[Woods Walker]

Oh I dunno. A "serious threat"? No matter how one juggles statistics, the likelihood of a venomous bite is really quite low. I have a better chance of winning a lottery. Or being struck by lightning ( 26 lightning fatalities in 2014 in the U.S.). Or drowning.

A few times I scampered off ridge lines seeking lower ground during summer T-storms. Sometimes the noise cracked my ears. I believe that localized situations often trumps general statistics. Who has a greater chance of getting hit by a bull shark? Someone watching "Shark Week" on Discovery or a person wading and fishing in waters which have them at the wrong time. Yet they both get combined in the same statistics. General statistics vs. localized environment. Despite my debate with Phoynix he is right about personal experience mattering. There are probably places in Down Under which the general statistics means nothing compared to the localized environmental conditions. In any case heading out for that hike. Got a trip report to post here as well later on. Yea all have a great day.

 

[2manyknives]

Always an interesting debate

Hope this link works. It summarises some research undertaken at my local hospital. It's getting a bit dated now but the data collection is still maintained.

There have been some deaths since the article was published. One thing that surprises many people is the high number of snakebites in this part of the world. The hospital services a relatively small population. The number is probably higher in reality as I know people who have been bitten and did not seek treatment. Quite a few don't unless they experience symptoms.

The town has a snake catcher who removes snakes from residential properties and he is kept busy. It is not unusual to see snakes in my yard. The dog next door died from snakebite a few years ago. Anyone who has lived here for a while has snake stories to tell.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2004...-prospective-study-top-end-northern-territory