So what is "hard use" with a folder, anyway?

R

RX-79G

Joined
Jun 23, 2006
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I recently suggested that hard use with a knife involves doing things like carving with the tip that might be extremely similar to prying.

If levering a folding knife in some manner isn't "hard use", what kind of cutting is hard use? When would a lighter, thinner locking folder fail when a beefy one won't?

Thanks.
 
RX-79G said:
I recently suggested that hard use with a knife involves doing things like carving with the tip that might be extremely similar to prying.

If levering a folding knife in some manner isn't "hard use", what kind of cutting is hard use? When would a lighter, thinner locking folder fail when a beefy one won't?

Thanks.
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I think with any enthusiast, it's a bit of a misnomer, but I could be wrong. The reason I say that is, most here would agree that to use it for anything other than cutting, which is its intended purpose, is either abuse or just not a smart thing to do. Given this, it stands to reason that the only real sort of "hard use" would be, "harder" cutting or perhaps at most, cutting more difficult materials?

The problem with that being, a thinly ground, geometrically sound slipjoint or other typically non overbuilt knife will pretty much do that the same--and in some cases better--than a knife with a thicker "hard use" blade (assuming comparable steels between the knives.)

With a NON enthusiast, it means doing the things we would avoid--prying, chopping down a Christmas tree, demolishing a house or putting it through a car door. I jest a bit here, but only a bit. If you look at the recent Knives are not prybars thread, the general consensus is, even knives touted as overbuilt tanks should not be used for things other than cutting. I guess one could go on to quantify more hardcore cutting tasks but if you read through that thread (which I think you have already) the general atmosphere seems to be that, regardless of advertising or its intended effect, no knife is meant to do more besides cut. Whether it's a beefy Cold Steel with a Tri-Ad lock or a slipjoint, if we accept the above as true, both knives are "tough enough" and "hard use" becomes essentially pointless.

Just one man's opinion; I look forward to hearing others.
 
This might count (ignore the date stamp from the future ;)):

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RedLynx said:
Curse you for showing excellent pics of one of the few knives I will always, always, always regret selling.
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Yeah, it's a pretty neat knife. :)
They still come up for sale on the exchange every so often, but the prices are getting higher.
 
stabman said:
Yeah, it's a pretty neat knife. :)
They still come up for sale on the exchange every so often, but the prices are getting higher.
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I've more or less accepted I'll never own one again. Mine was slightly different, with the black blade, but it was neat-o. Oh well.

Having an Adamas really helps me not be so sad about the Skirmish anymore. ;)
 
RedLynx said:
I've more or less accepted I'll never own one again. Mine was slightly different, with the black blade, but it was neat-o. Oh well.

Having an Adamas really helps me not be so sad about the Skirmish anymore. ;)
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Yep, it should also take "hard use"...whatever that turns out to mean. :D
 
stabman said:
Yep, it should also take "hard use"...whatever that turns out to mean. :D
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Despite what I said in my first post, I'd be lying if I said using a knife, a folding knife no less, to chop down a sapling or something like that, was not impressive. It's super cool. I just think as enthusiasts, we tend to view so many things as "abuse" of a knife that hard use is almost the same thing, in most cases. A Skirmish seems way tougher than an Endura IV, if I want to abuse a knife, but at the end of the day I think we go out of our way to avoid hard use more than we'd care to admit, even with a folder built like a tank. ;)
 
In general, to me, "hard use" is a marketing term designed to let makers and companies get away with selling knives that are only halfway ground, and have 5 times more steel left on them than necessary to cut well, while at the same time allowing the maker/company to inflate the price because the half-ground knife may actually get damaged when some Youtuber decides it's a good idea to define "hard use" himself with a hammer and cinder blocks, and they have to warrant the knife. That's generally my take on it.

ETA: Don't forget to add 10-15% to the price for the "hard use" label itself.

Sam
 
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I'm pretty sure I could hammer a SAK blade into a sapling as well. Or is the edge going to roll or the spine shatter from the batton?

(I'm assuming the pictured knife didn't get that far into a tree through chopping or pressing.)

But the reality is that hammering a blade into wood demonstrates the hardness, toughness and shape of the edge. A good edge on a thin blade will go in much further than a big heavy blade of the same steel and less acute edge.

And neither knife is utilizing their over or under-built handle or lock to do this.
 
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I was a mechanic many years ago and I used my folding knife to cut hoses and belts, scrape things, cut copper wire, pry things apart, etc. The knife survived just fine. I think this is a form of hard use.

I have a friend that worked in a machine shop and he used his Buck folder to carve aluminum occasionally.

I was at a shooting range and I saw someone use a Benchmade Stryker to pry an empty case out of an AR15.

I can imagine people in warehouses and construction using knives to cut open all kinds of bags of material, wire ties, strapping.

But now that I think about it, any reasonable quality knife should be able to handle these uses.

In recent years I use my folding knives to cut fruit, open packages, slice up cardboard boxes, and occasionally carve wood. This is pretty far from hard use.


So hard use must mean prying and chopping.
 
RedLynx said:
A Skirmish seems way tougher than an Endura IV
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Agreed.

RX-79G said:
I'm pretty sure I could hammer a SAK blade into a sapling as well. Or is the edge going to roll or the spine shatter from the batton?

But the reality is that hammering a blade into wood demonstrates the hardness, toughness and shape of the edge. A good edge on a thin blade will go in much further than a big heavy blade of the same steel and less acute edge.

And neither knife is utilizing their over or under-built handle or lock to do this.
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SAK blades do roll at times...I've had to straighten a few warped edges along the way.
Plus, the narrow blade isn't going to remove the limb with as much ease as the Skirmish did.

The point of that day was to build a shelter using only what I had on me...which was a folding knife and a broken shoelace.

As for the lock, it held up to an hour of chopping down a bunch of undergrowth to clear the area out. :)

But, since it is your thread, does the "hard use" abilities of a knife require the strongest lock out there?
What are the parameters?

I've put an example out there for discussion, so join in with what you think constitutes "hard use" or "normal use". :thumbup:
 
The perception that a knife can cut extremely well, have a functioning lock after being beaten and abused like a rented mule, and still function mechanically without so much as even a slight wobble after prying the bucket off a CAT 315C. It's the stuff of pixie dust and make believe what some people think "hard use" means.
To me is the ability to cut tough and fibrous materials for an extended period of time without requiring significant maintenance or repair is hard use.
 
stabman said:
Agreed.



SAK blades do roll at times...I've had to straighten a few warped edges along the way.
Plus, the narrow blade isn't going to remove the limb with as much ease as the Skirmish did.

The point of that day was to build a shelter using only what I had on me...which was a folding knife and a broken shoelace.

As for the lock, it held up to an hour of chopping down a bunch of undergrowth to clear the area out. :)

But, since it is your thread, does the "hard use" abilities of a knife require the strongest lock out there?
What are the parameters?

I've put an example out there for discussion, so join in with what you think constitutes "hard use" or "normal use". :thumbup:
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Why would a wider blade make it easier to remove a limb? A wider blade is better for splitting grain because it acts like a wedge, but cross grain (you would think) narrower would be better - like it is for most cutting tasks.

What sort of chopping did you do that stressed the lock? Back locks can and do fail from impact pressure (the blade folds up into where the lock should stop it) but other locks use a stop pin to transfer cutting and chopping forces. In other words, locks generally protect against closing, while chopping is opening. Yanking the blade out of something it is stuck in is the kind of closing force a lock guards against, as well stabbing motions.



I think a hard use folder ought to (regardless of how possible this might be):
1. Have an edge that is tough due to metallurgy and shape.
2. Have a lock that can take a fair amount of shock, handling or pressure without disengaging under closing pressure.
3. Have a blade, blade tip and handle/pivot that can handle a fair amount of pressure with side loads. "Prying" is one kind of that sort of use, but any time you are carving a hollow you are also putting side loads on the tip, blade and handle pivot.

I think that mechanism, edge metal and tip shape are all more critical than blade thickness. It would be difficult to get a 1/8" blade to break before the tip, lock or handle. A 3/16" blade isn't going to have any better luck with tip, lock or handle if it is otherwise the same.
 
I divide most types of carry into 'rural' and 'urban' for such discussions:

Urban hard use:
Cutting the wire, drywall and Ikea 'wood' for the week-long Home Theater conversion of the garage....helping the biker at the side of the road fix a flat or a spark plug by using the spine of your folder as a tire iron or the whole thing as a ratchet handle at 2am in the rain...watching the girl at the bar who inquired so sweetly, "Anyone have a knife?", as she push-cuts her raptor nails to blunt ends on the granite tabletop with my high-dollar auto; snap, snap,snap--"Hey, this is sharp!"...digging the boat trailer wheels out of the lake muck before it pulls the car in after assisting in the search.

Looking for S-90v here...ZDP....VG-10-ish stuff.​

Rural hard use:
Batoning wood...opening cans...hammering tent stakes/pitons into rock and then leveraging same out of the rock...cutting through roots/dirt when it's necessary....cracking pecans and walnuts with the spine or getting lazy and just batoning them (although done properly and carefully a folder makes a perfect nut cracker)...stabbing, twisting and prying into ice; emergency prying, twisting, screwing...using the blade as a kettle-set over the fire when cooking---requires a strong, dependable lock...campfire prep, coal tending, shifting burning logs and the occasional meat- on-a-stick cookup when there's no stick.

1095, 01 and good D-2 here. Wish more folders were made of these.​
 
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RX-79G said:
Why would a wider blade make it easier to remove a limb? A wider blade is better for splitting grain because it acts like a wedge, but cross grain (you would think) narrower would be better - like it is for most cutting tasks.

What sort of chopping did you do that stressed the lock? Back locks can and do fail from impact pressure (the blade folds up into where the lock should stop it) but other locks use a stop pin to transfer cutting and chopping forces. In other words, locks generally protect against closing, while chopping is opening. Yanking the blade out of something it is stuck in is the kind of closing force a lock guards against, as well stabbing motions.



I think a hard use folder ought to (regardless of how possible this might be):
1. Have an edge that is tough due to metallurgy and shape.
2. Have a lock that can take a fair amount of shock, handling or pressure without disengaging under closing pressure.
3. Have a blade, blade tip and handle/pivot that can handle a fair amount of pressure with side loads. "Prying" is one kind of that sort of use, but any time you are carving a hollow you are also putting side loads on the tip, blade and handle pivot.

I think that mechanism, edge metal and tip shape are all more critical than blade thickness. It would be difficult to get a 1/8" blade to break before the tip, lock or handle. A 3/16" blade isn't going to have any better luck with tip, lock or handle if it is otherwise the same.
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The wider blade made limb removal easy because I was able to use a small baton to cross-grain baton it off in one go.
To do the same with a SAK would have required going around the limb from multiple angles; more work involved.

The only chopping was to chop all the smaller limbs out of the way, which also made for shelter roofing material.
The stop pin takes the stress there, which makes such a knife better for light chopping that a back-lock. The Tri-Ad lock, of course, would also work well...it has a stop pin as well. There are always some negative forces involved as well; try chopping with a large slip joint, and you'll see that. :D

As for the lock, how strong is strong enough becomes a matter of judgement.
I think a lock that can support me is plenty of strong enough, as the force of me is all that the knife could conceivably have to take.

Some people want a lock that can support a small car.

As for the tip, if the angles (and overall design) are the same, thicker stock should have a thicker tip.
But yes, you can easily find thick blades with tip designs that are weaker than thinner blades with a different tip design.

I would add that ergonomics is important for a "hard use" knife; some handles will hurt your hand if you try getting any real work done with them.
 
I can only define it as a knife that 'feels' like it can take whatever I can throw at it and continue to function.

I know that's very vague, but there is something to it IMO, maybe it's just a confidence thing more than a factual comparison between two knives.

I can say that I feel much more comfortable prying with my SMF then my Opinel.

I think there is room for the word 'hard use' in describing a knife, it's not as off as 'tactical, or Operator'
 
stabman said:
The wider blade made limb removal easy because I was able to use a small baton to cross-grain baton it off in one go.
To do the same with a SAK would have required going around the limb from multiple angles; more work involved.


As for the tip, if the angles (and overall design) are the same, thicker stock should have a thicker tip.
But yes, you can easily find thick blades with tip designs that are weaker than thinner blades with a different tip design.
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Blade width (or height) vs. blade thickness. Gotcha - more blade sticking out to pound on.


As for tips, if you have a two blades with 25 degree tapered tips and different stock thicknesses, the thicker blade's tip is no stronger than the thinner one's, unless you break the tip of the thinner one past the taper. Specific tip strength comes from how obtuse the angles that form it are.

Lock strength is more complicated, since you can have a lock that is strong, but only at certain angles. It is easy to imagine a frame lock that disengages because the frame itself is too flexible. I also worry about things like Axis locks that can be very strong, but can fail to lock correctly due to a failure of one of the small springs.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.
 
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