So what is "hard use" with a folder, anyway?

[ToddM]

In general, to me, "hard use" is a marketing term designed to let makers and companies get away with selling knives that are only halfway ground, and have 5 times more steel left on them than necessary to cut well, while at the same time allowing the maker/company to inflate the price because the half-ground knife may actually get damaged when some Youtuber decides it's a good idea to define "hard use" himself with a hammer and cinder blocks, and they have to warrant the knife. That's generally my take on it.

ETA: Don't forget to add 10-15% to the price for the "hard use" label itself.

Exactly, "Hard Use" apparently is any use a company can vaguely suggest/hint at/market/advertise to sell expensive thick/heavy folding knives, unless that use damages the knife, in which case it was obviously abusive and something you shouldn't use any knife for. If a folding knife is only for nice vertical cutting 90% of the popular folding knives are poor examples. If that's what we limit "hard' use to a folding paring knife with high end steel will out perform most popular folders by a huge margin in "hard use" cutting.

It's not that I think a person should expect a folder to stand up to being beat through bricks with a hammer, prying a car door open, doing pull ups on, etc. but it's ridiculous that these companies market their knives as hard use, overbuilt, tactical, tank knives then call it abusive when people use them for tasks that demand more strength, durability, and lock integrity than the average SAK knife would survive.

I guess it's like buying a 4x4 now days, most of them are no longer designed to actually be used off road and won't hold up to it, should it break off roading, you obviously abused it. They just market them as durable off road vehicles to sell $45K cars with big tires.

 

[RedLynx]

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It's not that I think a person should expect a folder to stand up to being beat through bricks with a hammer, prying a car door open, doing pull ups on, etc. but it's ridiculous that these companies market their knives as hard use, overbuilt, tactical, tank knives then call it abusive when people use them for tasks that demand more strength, durability, and lock integrity than the average SAK knife would survive.

I guess it's like buying a 4x4 now days, most of them are no longer designed to actually be used off road and won't hold up to it, should it break off roading, you obviously abused it. They just market them as durable off road vehicles to sell $45K cars with big tires.

To be fair, many companies that market their knives as hard use will replace or repair your knife if it was used hard or, in many cases, even abused.

 

[mqqn]

Yeah, it's a pretty neat knife.
They still come up for sale on the exchange every so often, but the prices are getting higher.

That's because they can travel in time, and if one gets loose in the brush, it builds a diabolically camouflaged tee-pee structure to hide in!

They are very tricky.

Cool pictures - can't wait for the spring to arrive so I can do some hard use with my knives.

best

mqqn

 

[KennyB]

I personally consider hard use to be any kind of use that requires you to start muscling the knife around, as that imparts a lot of physical stresses into the knife in various ways. Cut open an envelope with a slipjoint and then cut through 6" of foam rubber with it, you're not going to break the thing but you'd probably appreciate it to feel more sturdy when cutting the dense material and muscling through it.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Part of the problem is perception and definitions getting tricky. As you pointed out, there are cutting tasks that will essentially replicate the same forces as light prying. Problem with that is, I can't blame any company for not warranting prying with their knives as I'm pretty confident I could break at least some piece of any folder I own by prying (and I favor large, strong folders).

Even when we describe the particular situation it's very hard to get across what kind of forces were involved. The release lever on my gas cap doesn't work terribly well, so I pry it open with a knife almost every time I fill up. I would be shocked and angry if any folder failed while doing this because I'm putting almost no pressure on the knife, I just can't grip the metal to open as the opening is too small (maybe I should carry a small suction cup...). I sincerely doubt the process takes even 3 or 4 pounds of lateral force applied to the knife, but even if I point that out many will be skeptical.

 

[bld522]

I recently suggested that hard use with a knife involves doing things like carving with the tip that might be extremely similar to prying.

If levering a folding knife in some manner isn't "hard use", what kind of cutting is hard use? When would a lighter, thinner locking folder fail when a beefy one won't?

Thanks.

I may be old school for thinking this way, but a folder is a knife that's broken by design. Using a broken tool to perform "hard" tasks doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so I don't carry or use "hard use" folders. If I need to perform heavy-duty tasks that involve cutting something, I'll either use a fixed-blade knife or some other more appropriate tool (e.g, axe, prybar, saw, etc.). And where I draw the line in deciding whether or not to use my lightweight folder is if I'm concerned that it might fail. If that question arises in my mind, I reach for another tool. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. YMMV.

 

[drrickso]

I may be old school for thinking this way, but a folder is a knife that's broken by design. Using a broken tool to perform "hard" tasks doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so I don't carry or use "hard use" folders. If I need to perform heavy-duty tasks that involve cutting something, I'll either use a fixed-blade knife or some other more appropriate tool (e.g, axe, prybar, saw, etc.). And where I draw the line is if I wonder whether the lighter, thinner locking folder I'm carrying might fail when I consider the task at hand. If that question arises in my mind, I reach for another tool. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. YMMV.

that makes sense to me... you have to trade stability for portability when moving from fixed to folder. prying is not something id even consider on a folder.

 

[bld522]

The reason I'm old school on this one is that locks have gotten to the point where folders can achieve nearly the strength that fixed-blades possess. But to do that, they need to be bigger and heavier than I'm willing to carry. I don't use pocket clips for reasons I've outlined elsewhere and my weight limit for a folder is around 4 ounces. I can't think of a single 4 ounce folder on the market I'd trust to have the kind of strength a fixed-blade has. Then again, I set pretty reasonable limits on the kinds of tasks I ask my folders to accomplish, so I don't ever have to ask myself whether or not they'll fail. I simply never approach their point of failure.

 

[drrickso]

even with a heavy weight folder, i couldnt see relying on a pivot to handle prying. i guess in a desperate situation some would hold up better than others.

 

[bld522]

Call me silly, but I wouldn't even ask a fixed-blade to pry stuff unless I had to. Prying isn't what knives are designed to do.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Call me silly, but I wouldn't even ask a fixed-blade to pry stuff unless I had to. Prying isn't what knives are designed to do.

Depends on the knife. The trend for some time seems to be sacrificing cutting efficiency for greater resilience. I would argue an ESEE 5 is designed to pry as much as it's designed to cut, and there are the various pry-knives on the market as well. My personal preference in fixed blades is, for right now, more thinly ground slicers, but there are definitely knives that I own that I would use to pry without any particular concern.

Honestly, I'm more impressed these days when a company drops a knife that cuts really well than I am when they drop a knife I could pry open a door with. The latter seems to have become more common than the former. Right now I'm thinking about having a sheath made for my 4.5" Spyderco paring knife. I bet it would make one heck of a camp knife if I had a way to carry it.

 

[drrickso]

Call me silly, but I wouldn't even ask a fixed-blade to pry stuff unless I had to. Prying isn't what knives are designed to do.

i have a busse that id trust prying with over some dedicated prybars
but on topic as far as folders i couldnt see using a strider sng/smf and expecting it not to snap or at least break at the pivot. and those are beefy

 

[2jka]

I would say chest lever cutting through a 2x2" piece of red oak with one cut, counts. Or using that same knife to cut a hole for a peg in a Christmas tree using only the tip, or literally chopping a piece of 1.5" maple to make a walking stick counts. Other slashing and chopping abounded as well. I did all of this with my spydrco resilience this season. Put years on the lock up, it is now about half way engaged on the face vs as early as possible but fully engaged new. Otherwise it's no worse for the wear. But I think that all was near its limits. Idk it still not broken yet!

 

[2jka]

The tip on that knife is nowhere near thick enough for prying and the blade seams too thin to cross grain baton with but that thing cuts and stabs like all get out! It's stockier older brother the tenacious might have worked better for that stuff but it wouldn't have had as much blade and wouldn't have slashed the small stuff, and chopped, chest levered nearly as well to I am very happy with my choice.😄

 

[2jka]

One more thing guys don't forget that years ago they made sharp utility pry scraper screwdriver knives too! They called them electrician's blades. Check out case's sight if you don't believe me. http://www.wrcase.com/case_college/blades_steel/

 

[JR88FAN]

i have a busse that id trust prying with over some dedicated prybars
but on topic as far as folders i couldnt see using a strider sng/smf and expecting it not to snap or at least break at the pivot. and those are beefy

Knives are not necessarily designed for prying, but it's often the only tool on me.
My wallet, Cigarettes, and lighter are not much use for anything other than the obvious.

I wish I knew all the things I would encounter in a day so I could always bring the correct tool for the job, but that just isn't going to happen.

That's what's so great about knives, their versatility is endless, and that's why I have so much respect for them and carry one 24/7.
Yes sometimes I need to pry with my knife, and an SMF makes a great pry-bar....

I want versatility, and the confidence to use the best tool of all time how I need to, and if it breaks, it breaks. That hasn't happened yet.

 

[RBid]

Handle dimensions and feel are where I put most of my value in "hard use folders". I'm not doing heavy prying with them, but I HAVE done numerous cardboard processing marathons. In extended use, the handle of a ZT 0550 is more comfortable than something like my TiSpine, and I really could not possibly care any less than I do about the weight difference. At the same time, the blade thickness of the 0550 doesn't add value to that kind of work. It would be close to perfect with the same handle and .125" stock with a slicer grind.

Similar to the "hard use" drum being banged to death is the "lousy cutter" sentiment. While I certainly wouldn't slice apples with an 0550 (I have teeth), I've put it through a lot of cardboard and have press cut plastic bindings many times, and have no complaints about how it cuts.

Guys who like fat knives want to justify that. Guys who prefer traditionals want to justify that. At the end of the day, they all cut stuff. Buy what you like.

 

[2jka]

Handle dimensions and feel are where I put most of my value in "hard use folders". I'm not doing heavy prying with them, but I HAVE done numerous cardboard processing marathons. In extended use, the handle of a ZT 0550 is more comfortable than something like my TiSpine, and I really could not possibly care any less than I do about the weight difference. At the same time, the blade thickness of the 0550 doesn't add value to that kind of work. It would be close to perfect with the same handle and .125" stock with a slicer grind.

Similar to the "hard use" drum being banged to death is the "lousy cutter" sentiment. While I certainly wouldn't slice apples with an 0550 (I have teeth), I've put it through a lot of cardboard and have press cut plastic bindings many times, and have no complaints about how it cuts.

Guys who like fat knives want to justify that. Guys who prefer traditionals want to justify that. At the end of the day, they all cut stuff. Buy what you like.

I couldn't agree more with all of what you just said. I guess wanting the best of both worlds has led to the popularity of full flat ground, very broad, but still thick blades. The resilience seems to do that pretty well, although like I said it might be a little too good of a slice to truly ride the middle line. But always having the Leatherman piraña on me at all times might have skewed my bias away a from a purely utility tool. I will like to submit the Resilience to the practical, tactical, budget user hall of fame. The length on the handle really makes the world of difference, especially when "chopping" (more like aggravated slashing when using a folder) and doing those chest lever cuts.

 

[Todd21969]

OP, everything you have posted in this thread is pure theory based on reading what a knife "should" do.

Take your knife out and use it "hard". That is the only way you will know what "hard use " is to you.

Here is a high, thin, flat ground, CPM S30v , partial liner, with a liner lock and a thin tip. A pure slicing machine. Pretty much my daily carry since November. After changing from a ZT 0301 i had carried for over a year.

If I believed the stuff on the net it should fall apart on me.

Spyderco Military vs Oak

Push cuts in with full body weight, side prying out. All around the diameter till I could push it over.

Push cut with full weight straight down the center to cut the remaining core.

And just for the heck of it. Baton right down the center, hitting that fragile tip.

And if it had broken? I would have put my Para 2 in my pocket and ordered another Military ... next day delivery

 

[Scurvy092]

Knives are not necessarily designed for prying, but it's often the only tool on me.
My wallet, Cigarettes, and lighter are not much use for anything other than the obvious.

I wish I knew all the things I would encounter in a day so I could always bring the correct tool for the job, but that just isn't going to happen.

That's what's so great about knives, their versatility is endless, and that's why I have so much respect for them and carry one 24/7.
Yes sometimes I need to pry with my knife, and an SMF makes a great pry-bar....

I want versatility, and the confidence to use the best tool of all time how I need to, and if it breaks, it breaks. That hasn't happened yet.

Just spend $5 and get a gerber shard for your keychain.