So what is "hard use" with a folder, anyway?

[whp]

The reason I'm old school on this one is that locks have gotten to the point where folders can achieve nearly the strength that fixed-blades possess. But to do that, they need to be bigger and heavier than I'm willing to carry. I don't use pocket clips for reasons I've outlined elsewhere and my weight limit for a folder is around 4 ounces. I can't think of a single 4 ounce folder on the market I'd trust to have the kind of strength a fixed-blade has. Then again, I set pretty reasonable limits on the kinds of tasks I ask my folders to accomplish, so I don't ever have to ask myself whether or not they'll fail. I simply never approach their point of failure.

I carry knives of various sizes and strengths for various jobs. I ve also never come close to breaking a knife because I pay attention to what their capabilities seem to be while working with them.

 

[RX-79G]

I carry knives of various sizes and strengths for various jobs. I ve also never come close to breaking a knife because I pay attention to what their capabilities seem to be while working with them.

How do you know what their capabilities and limits are? The birth of this thread was a guy whose lock released the blade while prying. He didn't break the tip or the lock, but something that he simply didn't expect.

I think many people (possibly you included) form opinions about the strength of a knife by observing its general construction and how it is marketed. No consumer is running a finite element analysis to determine whether their in-expert opinion is based in fact.

 

[RX-79G]

OP, everything you have posted in this thread is pure theory based on reading what a knife "should" do.

Take your knife out and use it "hard". That is the only way you will know what "hard use " is to you.

Here is a high, thin, flat ground, CPM S30v , partial liner, with a liner lock and a thin tip. A pure slicing machine. Pretty much my daily carry since November. After changing from a ZT 0301 i had carried for over a year.

If I believed the stuff on the net it should fall apart on me.

Thanks, but it isn't an internet theory. I use my folders for wood carving, which is why I described the side loads involved that are similar to prying. I'm really not interested in the whole batoning stunt, nor do I want to destroy a perfecting good knife just to make a point.

 

[bld522]

Using the right tool for the job can mean different things to different people. But when you're dealing with a piece of extremely sharp steel, guessing wrong can have some pretty nasty consequences. I tend to be conservative when it comes to assessing the capabilities of my knives, perhaps overly so. But so far it's kept me out of harm's way. Safety first!

 

[Todd21969]

I'm pretty sure I could hammer a SAK blade into a sapling as well. Or is the edge going to roll or the spine shatter from the batton?

(I'm assuming the pictured knife didn't get that far into a tree through chopping or pressing.)

But the reality is that hammering a blade into wood demonstrates the hardness, toughness and shape of the edge. A good edge on a thin blade will go in much further than a big heavy blade of the same steel and less acute edge.

And neither knife is utilizing their over or under-built handle or lock to do this.

This whole post above is internet theory on your part.

After all you don't believe in the "batoning stunt". So then how would you know the effects of batoning has on a knife handle, lock, or blade? Other than reading or watching you tube vids?

 

[RX-79G]

This whole post above is internet theory on your part.

After all you don't believe in the "batoning stunt". So then how would you know the effects of batoning has on a knife handle, lock, or blade? Other than reading or watching you tube vids?

Batoning a LOCKED folder is a dumb stunt. I've batoned fixed blades before, and if I wanted (or needed) to baton with a folder it wouldn't be locked. That is widely agreed to be the correct method with a folder.

Beyond that, I don't think batoning tells us as much about a hard use folding knife because it has so little to do with the tip, handle, pivot or lock - and it involves using a second tool - which the knife maker hasn't provided. That's why I labeled it a "stunt".

"Hard use" for a folder should probably involve more things that you can do with the knife alone in your hand that you wouldn't even consider doing with a SAK or similar - chopping, stabbling, chipping, prying, drilling.

And if no folding knife can be trusted to do any amount of those things, then "hard use folder" and heavily built folding knives in general are baloney.

 

[Todd21969]

Batoning a LOCKED folder is a dumb stunt. I've batoned fixed blades before, and if I wanted (or needed) to baton with a folder it wouldn't be locked. That is widely agreed to be the correct method with a folder.

Beyond that, I don't think batoning tells us as much about a hard use folding knife because it has so little to do with the tip, handle, pivot or lock - and it involves using a second tool - which the knife maker hasn't provided. That's why I labeled it a "stunt".
.

And here you go. More internet theory.

By the way my Military was locked open. Just because you read something is "widely agreed" , doesn't make it gospel. Of course you wouldn't know...... you have no experiance doing what you preach.

Now I shall bow out of this thread. I need to find a surgery forum to join. You see I read WebMD and slept in a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[EDCanAdamas]

Batoning a LOCKED folder is a dumb stunt. I've batoned fixed blades before, and if I wanted (or needed) to baton with a folder it wouldn't be locked.

I don't get why people feel the need to baton their knives period. Unless you are in an emergency situation, bring an axe. Not hard.

As for a "hard use" folder, I consider it to be a large folder that won't break when it is accidentally dropped, damaged by the movement of the owner in active situations (Rescue, Combat, Outdoor adventure, etc), or bend when used to CUT thicker materials.

Gentleman's folders are great for small things, but would you take one into a fire, carry it on a patrol, or trust it when your stranded in the middle of nowhere and have NO CHOICE but to abuse the knife. Some people just feel more prepared carrying a pocket brick rather than something like a Benchmade 530 Pardue with a .090in thick blade.

 

[TLoFP]

A knife labeled "hard use" should inspire confidence. Confidence to me means that I can stab things without worrying about the blade snapping off. It also means being able to pry things, not without causing damage, but without snapping off the blade. To me hard use means a thick blade and a safe lock. Opinels and SAKs are not hard use to me. A SAK would close on me if I were to stab something, and I am confident I can bent, if not snap off, the blade on my opinel with little strength.

Hard use folders are: ZT 562, AlMar SERE 2000.

Something in-between would be the Spyderco military (or an AlMar Eagle HD). I think it has a weak tip. I also think I could stab a wild animal with it, if I had too. Most importantly thought the Milli doesn't inspire confidence like the SERE does.

just my 2-cents

"I like big butts and I cannot lie"

err, I mean knives

 

[RX-79G]

And here you go. More internet theory.

By the way my Military was locked open. Just because you read something is "widely agreed" , doesn't make it gospel. Of course you wouldn't know...... you have no experiance doing what you preach.

Now I shall bow out of this thread. I need to find a surgery forum to join. You see I read WebMD and slept in a Holiday Inn last night.

Just because you choose to do one (questionable) thing that I don't, doesn't mean you're the smart one and I have no experience with using knives. I can ride a motorcycle, even though I haven't jumped mine over a shark tank.

Point being, batoning a locked folder is certainly A test of knife strength. It just isn't the most obvious or important one. It is a very isolated and special case. Just like the measure of a good doctor isn't if they know how to do an experimental form of brain surgery.

 

[JkArctic]

ColdSteel has a pretty good line up of knifes with videos that prove they can be used and "abused" without failing. Hard to argue with that, gents. Hanging a 200+ pound man on a folder then stabbing it through a car hood, then beating the spine of the blade on hard wood and it still functions... sounds like the type of knife for the OP.

 

[A.L.]

I can appreciate hard use knife, but more than often I feel that lot of manufacturers forget to put the "to" word in between the words hard and use.

 

[beaconterraone]

Folder "hard use" = anything other than cutting/slicing materials softer than the blade steel. Doesn't matter if it has a Tri-Ad lock or whatever. You can do it, but don't expect it not to break or have problems.

 

[yepimonfire]

I'd say any sort of batoning, chopping, carving with the tip, or any cut that puts negative forward pressure on the lock. Things that are still cutting but could cause a poorly constructed or even under built system to fail.

 

[tom.u.w]

For many years I carried either a buck 110 or 112 but I knew that if I used it or bang it on the back side it would close when the liner locks showed up style I like them I have several from Benchmade / belly song I think linerlock is very good I still carry them to this day most of the time if you use them you will have a feeling for their strength and their breaking point even after having to dig out of ice it was a long time ago but I know I sent it back into Benchmade and they repaired or replaced it it really took a beating

 

[EDCanAdamas]

I'd say any sort of batoning, chopping, carving with the tip, or any cut that puts negative forward pressure on the lock. Things that are still cutting but could cause a poorly constructed or even under built system to fail.

I like to whittle things with most of my knives, modern folders and traditionals alike. I don't consider it to be abuse, and I expect the knives I am using to handle it. Is that hard use?

 

[Brigadier]

http://youtu.be/T51UfbfUXlU

 

[B34NS]

Point being, batoning a locked folder is certainly A test of knife strength. It just isn't the most obvious or important one. It is a very isolated and special case. Just like the measure of a good doctor isn't if they know how to do an experimental form of brain surgery.

How would it matter to somone who doesn't use a knife for wood at all? Kinda like those 4wheel drive commercials to get guys to buy a truck that they won't even be able to change a tire on or tow a commercial jetliner, but you could. If you're a sucker for marketing that is.

[video=youtube;7ZeFDe44Ddo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZeFDe44Ddo[/video]

 

[stabman]

but on topic as far as folders i couldnt see using a strider sng/smf and expecting it not to snap or at least break at the pivot. and those are beefy

They break at the hole, not the pivot.
You almost never see a knife broken at the pivot, any knife.

That's because they can travel in time, and if one gets loose in the brush, it builds a diabolically camouflaged tee-pee structure to hide in!

They are very tricky.

Cool pictures - can't wait for the spring to arrive so I can do some hard use with my knives.

best

mqqn

The time travel abilities of titanium frame-locks are an unstudied area of research for the most part.

I don't get why people feel the need to baton their knives period. Unless you are in an emergency situation, bring an axe. Not hard.

I'm not a fan of axes...they bore me.
So I don't carry them.
Hence, I don't use them.

As for the shelter built in the pics, like I said, that was done to see what could be done with what I carry every day.
I doubt you carry an axe every single day...I know I haven't seen anyone riding the bus with one.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think it is mostly a marketing thing. But I will provide some examples of hard use for a folder and the assumption is that knife will still be relatively sharp when you are done and the cutting edge is not damaged. Hard use also would imply some sort of regular use over a longish period of time versus cutting your sandwich or an apple which takes minutes. Most of these examples are all things that there are better tools available than a folding knife.

Cutting sheetrock
Cutting tires
Cutting and installing carpet
Cutting thick rope such as might be used around ship docks
Cutting down a 3" diameter tree. There is a reason they call some woods "hard woods".
Cutting steel cans on a regular basis
Batonning with a folder.
Cutting wire
Cutting metal in general.
Cutting hundreds of apples or any kind of fruit continuously.
Digging a foxhole.

Folders are meant more to cut something and put it away rather than some sort of marathon cutting session.