So what's so great about titanium locks?

[marthinus]

The spring itself if it is Titanium can be heat treated or carbonized. Strider and Hinderer do the latter. This helps tremendously with wear on titanium and if done right will last you a life time. CRK and a few custom makers that I have do Heat Treating of the lock. Wear is about nun and equal to (if) steel was used.

HOWEVER. Titanium is NOT PERFECT and it can have flaws in it when received from the supplier. EVEN aerospace titanium (grade 5 titanium). These flaws only become apparent when it is used and is sometimes not even noticeable until it begins to form a problem. This is where a good warranty comes into play.

Steel used as a liner is not always the answer as well. Different steel interfaces can result in slipping. Steel on steel requires a lot of research to find what can be used and heat treated as a spring and still provide excellent wear resistance and safety.

Finally, lockup percentage is a strange thing and depends on the final user. I prefer later lockup as it usually means less chance of slipping off the LF.

I hope this helped you in some way."

At the end, if you either use Ti or Steel, the LF geometry is key.

I have Ti lock custom that I have flicked vigorously, the maker asked me to test the lock face.

BT also writes in his book there is no significance between steel and Ti if done right. A Sebenza will wear for a while and then stop. Most quality locks do this. Chris Reeve also wants a later lockup as he feels it provides a safer lock and less chance of slipping. I tend to agree. Besides. If any quality product wears out so fast, they should cover it under warrenty.

I have seen a 18 year old Sebenza. No issues. I have a Military with the steel insert. No issues. Both locks apply different end results, but the basics are the same resulting in great locks that can last you a live time.

BT also feels that the strength to weight ratio of Titanium is excellent compared to steel.

Not really. The routing that is done is to make the disengagement for the user more comfortable. STR has made Ti framelocks without any cutouts (routing) because the user wanted it only to have it returned later on because the user complained it was to difficult to disengage.

The cutouts (routing) also provide a "safe burn" for those "accidental moments" when the lock does fail due to excessive force on the blade.

A Emerson HD-7 showed this perfectly.

http://strsbackyardknifeworks.blogspot.com/2009/07/bins-horseman-hd-and-jryan-edc-folder.html

In short

"Contrary to how many readers may feel about that picture above. That my friends is a design that deserves praise for defeating the way it was engineered to go. That HD7 above did its job and so did the designer/maker of the knife. I doubt any sutures or ER trips costing great amounts of money were needed with that defeat. We should all pray to be so lucky should we be the on the unfortunate end of a defeat ourselves one day."

The cutouts are the weakest link in a Framelock IMO.

I have been surprised by some framelocks. A kershaw vapor that I had would disengage with some force on the spine when not held in hand. When I gripped it the lock did not move as ones fingers actually force the lock in.

Titanium that is used in framelocks have to be at least grade 5 quality. It has natural spring tension if I can remember correctly.

Dwayne

Emerson knives start live out so early because it is the Mr. Emersons personal choice for his locks. I know of custom makers that also do this.

However, in my experience it is Ti liner locks such as Emerson knives (and there are many others that also do this) that are not heat treated or carbodized lock faces of the springs that tend to wear much faster. In these locks the geometry of the lock has to be as close to perfect as one can get.

Chris Reeve.....well this is interesting because he is credited as the father of the "framelock" or R.I.L.

The reason why his knives do not really have a break in period, or if it has it is very little is one thing: Tolerance.

CRK also does what I feel is good practice in that they adopt the blade to the spring, not the spring to the blade. In other words, when they fit a blade to a lock, they have multiple handles that are pre-assembled, checking in which handle the blade fits best and then if required they grind the blade LF area to mach the spring. They never fiddle with the spring or springs LF area after it has been heat treated and bead blasted to mach the blade. This is good practice IMO and great makers do this.

The only real advantage steel has over Ti is not in its wear resistance, but IMO in its impact resistance if one wants to beat the :spyder: out of the spyderco or other knife.

(I wanted to ad that my knowledge is not perfect and if any maker wants to correct me I am willing to learn, I am just sharing what I have learned from makers and books)

It does not really matter if the company is Emerson or not, the quality control needs to be good and with what ever company there have been a few melons going through. This is wear warranty comes into play.

The thing why Emerson knives wear so fast is due to the wave feature. If you wave that knife 20 times a day at full speed then the lock will wear faster.

The second question I dont fully understand, could you elaborate on it a bit before I attempt to answer it in full?

If you are referring to why CRK knives start locking up at 50%, that is his preference (mine to) and the LF is designed and executed that way.

The initial wear on a CRK is minimal due to the close tolerances on the LF and the entire knife. However, sometimes there is a rough spot on the LF that just wears smooth and the lockup will increase from 50%-60% within a few days, or weeks, but after that it would wear very very slowly. CRK wants the lockup to be between 50%-75%, but this is different on the Umnumzaan. On the Um it looks closer to 90% but it is actually 75% and I have yet to hear a complaint about the Umnumzaans LF or geometry.

Some imagery from custom maker Gareth Bull

^ Nice post bud That zone of 7.5-8.5 degrees really is vital. For those of us visually inclined:

Comments from well known custom maker Des Horn

I do not believe this is wear.
In my view this is "setting" of the face to a perfect fit against the blade, and once there it does not move.
This is a really great thread giving lots of advice to the novice makers.

I hope this can be useful and educational to some. I know I went a bit of topic... from steel vs Ti, but you have to look at it as a whole in my opinion

 

[skyhorse]

I always thought that Chris Reeves knives were made to be opened in a fluid motion rather than flicking open the blade by use of the thumb stud.BTW,he makes an outstanding knife,the words below are his.

· Any of our folding knives, assembled correctly, will open and close smoothly. Remember that they are intended as robust, working knives and they will not feel the same as many other folding knives. When opening a Sebenza or Mnandi, use a sideways, sweeping motion with the side of your thumb against the lug. The Umnumzaan opens by pushing the lug forward, parallel with the handle, with the top of your thumb.

 

[Elgreco]

It seems like having a steel puck with a titanium framelock is the best of both worlds.

 

[marthinus]

I always thought that Chris Reeves knives were made to be opened in a fluid motion rather than flicking open the blade by use of the thumb stud.BTW,he makes an outstanding knife,the words below are his.

· Any of our folding knives, assembled correctly, will open and close smoothly. Remember that they are intended as robust, working knives and they will not feel the same as many other folding knives. When opening a Sebenza or Mnandi, use a sideways, sweeping motion with the side of your thumb against the lug. The Umnumzaan opens by pushing the lug forward, parallel with the handle, with the top of your thumb.

Agreed. Most knives are designed to be opened in one continuous motion, yet so many people want to have it fly out faster than light. It is their knife and they can do with it what they want. I just dont understand it.

Just my opinion on the matter.

 

[stabman]

Agreed. Most knives are designed to be opened in one continuous motion, yet so many people want to have it fly out faster than light. It is their knife and they can do with it what they want. I just dont understand it.

It's the internet effect:
"If I can't baton my folder through steel pipe, after having it fly open with the touch of my little finger, and still shave facial hair after, then it totally sucks. And it should be made in MY country, and cost $15."

 

[philwar]

Agreed. Most knives are designed to be opened in one continuous motion, yet so many people want to have it fly out faster than light. It is their knife and they can do with it what they want. I just dont understand it.

I'm sure many people don't understand why it should be a problem. So it would seem there's a mutual lack of understanding.

 

[seelow123]

It's the internet effect:
"If I can't baton my folder through steel pipe, after having it fly open with the touch of my little finger, and still shave facial hair after, then it totally sucks. And it should be made in MY country, and cost $15."

Mind if I use that in my sig?

 

[stabman]

Mind if I use that in my sig?

By all means, use it.

 

[PassinBy]

It's the internet effect:
"If I can't baton my folder through steel pipe, after having it fly open with the touch of my little finger, and still shave facial hair after, then it totally sucks. And it should be made in MY country, and cost $15."

good one

 

[IGotStabbed]

Alotta good info here. Thank!

 

[Cassull]

Agreed. Most knives are designed to be opened in one continuous motion, yet so many people want to have it fly out faster than light. It is their knife and they can do with it what they want. I just dont understand it.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Trying to understand how flicking the knife open fast damages the lock. If anything, it would damage the stop pin at the top, no? When you flick the knife open all the force is applied upwards which puts pressure on the stop pin, not on the liner/frame lock.

 

[Cassull]

It's the internet effect:
"If I can't baton my folder through steel pipe, after having it fly open with the touch of my little finger, and still shave facial hair after, then it totally sucks. And it should be made in MY country, and cost $15."

Also, jimping.

 

[marthinus]

Trying to understand how flicking the knife open fast damages the lock. If anything, it would damage the stop pin at the top, no? When you flick the knife open all the force is applied upwards which puts pressure on the stop pin, not on the liner/frame lock.

Think of the blade as a bouncing ball, when you flip it it hits the stop pin and wants to bounce back from where it came, but now there is a lock in its way. Test this with a liner lock such as the military, depress the liner, flip and stop your hand as still as possible, after the blade has hit the stop pin it will start to return towards the closed position.

 

[Dorito Monk]

So far, I'm not really seeing the joy in Ti Framelocks.

In principle, they are an extremely simple and functional design (The average Ti framelock has what, one moving part? One and a half? The blade and the lockbar?), but in practice they seem to be something of a pain in the balls. If any of the parts (stop pin, lock bar, blade tang, whatever) aren't machined just so, the knife can develop blade play, the lock might not engage, the lock might not be secure closed, and any number of problems might pop up. I finally bought one and have had nothing but problems with it - even after I sent it back to be repaired, it's so buggered up that it's barely useable (all because a tiny grind on the blade tang isn't just right, so the lockbar slips right out of place).

Plus, I get the impression that they seem to be quite susceptible to damage or failures from wear - although I couldn't say how they compare to other common designs in this regard. Just using them normally will cause the lockbar to travel over time, and wrist flicking etc. has a pretty big impact on them.

I've lost count of the number of topics being posted about even high-end Ti framelocks having problems from nearly undetectable manufacturing flaws, or developing problems after a short time (lockbar travelling too far too fast, blade play developing, lockbars slipping off of the blade tangs, etc). Ti framelocks strike me as something nice and classy, but not overly practical.

Just my impressions.

 

[mkjellgren]

So far, I'm not really seeing the joy in Ti Framelocks.

In principle, they are an extremely simple and functional design (The average Ti framelock has what, one moving part? One and a half? The blade and the lockbar?), but in practice they seem to be something of a pain in the balls. If any of the parts (stop pin, lock bar, blade tang, whatever) aren't machined just so, the knife can develop blade play, the lock might not engage, the lock might not be secure closed, and any number of problems might pop up. I finally bought one and have had nothing but problems with it - even after I sent it back to be repaired, it's so buggered up that it's barely useable (all because a tiny grind on the blade tang isn't just right, so the lockbar slips right out of place).

Plus, I get the impression that they seem to be quite susceptible to damage or failures from wear - although I couldn't say how they compare to other common designs in this regard. Just using them normally will cause the lockbar to travel over time, and wrist flicking etc. has a pretty big impact on them.

I've lost count of the number of topics being posted about even high-end Ti framelocks having problems from nearly undetectable manufacturing flaws, or developing problems after a short time (lockbar travelling too far too fast, blade play developing, lockbars slipping off of the blade tangs, etc). Ti framelocks strike me as something nice and classy, but not overly practical.

Just my impressions.

This is kind of how I feel as well. There's something special about an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ti frame lock, but anything short of perfection leaves a lot to be desired. It's gotten to the point for me where I actually prefer a well executed steel liner lock (like the zt0350 or spyderco Gayle bradley) over a Ti frame lock. Honestly though, give be an axis or compression lock, heck even a good back lock, over a frame or liner lock any day.

 

[Cassull]

Think of the blade as a bouncing ball, when you flip it it hits the stop pin and wants to bounce back from where it came, but now there is a lock in its way. Test this with a liner lock such as the military, depress the liner, flip and stop your hand as still as possible, after the blade has hit the stop pin it will start to return towards the closed position.

I tested this with my Axis lock knife where I can hold the lock down and keep it disengaged while flipping the blade. I flipped it while holding the lock downward (so disengaged) and the blade did not bounce back. I guess the way I flick the blade doesn't make it bounce and therefore shouldn't be a problem on the lock.

 

[philwar]

Ti framelocks are IMHO not all that sensible - but they are the most attractive of folders. I have never held or even seen a type of folder that can beat an XM-18, an SMF, an SR-1 or even a HEST/F in esthetics. They're just so damn cool. And they work just as well as any other type, I've never had any problems. Would I beat the snot out of my Lfti or Alias 1? LOL, not on your life.

Try one, and you will see the attraction. And all the talk about their being fragile somehow becomes irrelevant. It may be true in theory, but it's irrelevant in practice.

 

[marthinus]

I tested this with my Axis lock knife where I can hold the lock down and keep it disengaged while flipping the blade. I flipped it while holding the lock downward (so disengaged) and the blade did not bounce back. I guess the way I flick the blade doesn't make it bounce and therefore shouldn't be a problem on the lock.

Can be, I really have to fling it to get it to bounce back on my Axis and as I mentioned some really try to go superman on their folders with "speed of deployment".

 

[Cassull]

So far, I'm not really seeing the joy in Ti Framelocks.

In principle, they are an extremely simple and functional design (The average Ti framelock has what, one moving part? One and a half? The blade and the lockbar?), but in practice they seem to be something of a pain in the balls. If any of the parts (stop pin, lock bar, blade tang, whatever) aren't machined just so, the knife can develop blade play, the lock might not engage, the lock might not be secure closed, and any number of problems might pop up. I finally bought one and have had nothing but problems with it - even after I sent it back to be repaired, it's so buggered up that it's barely useable (all because a tiny grind on the blade tang isn't just right, so the lockbar slips right out of place).

Plus, I get the impression that they seem to be quite susceptible to damage or failures from wear - although I couldn't say how they compare to other common designs in this regard. Just using them normally will cause the lockbar to travel over time, and wrist flicking etc. has a pretty big impact on them.

I've lost count of the number of topics being posted about even high-end Ti framelocks having problems from nearly undetectable manufacturing flaws, or developing problems after a short time (lockbar travelling too far too fast, blade play developing, lockbars slipping off of the blade tangs, etc). Ti framelocks strike me as something nice and classy, but not overly practical.

Just my impressions.

I agree with this, but then again, if you're using a frame lock (or any folder to be honest) to baton wood or hammer something, you're doing it wrong. The strongest folder in the planet will never be as strong as a good fixed blade.

 

[gdwtvb]

Lots of great info in this thread. I thought I'd weigh in as the Ti framelock is one of my all time favorites.

First as a handle material I find Ti to be much better than steel. In my experience, a steel handled knife is colder in the hand in winter and hotter in the hand in summer. I have set a steel handled knife in the sun and had it nearly burn me when I went to pick it up. I've never had this experience with Ti. Also, I have never had trouble keeping a good grip on a Ti handled knife in wet or slippery conditions. (I don't want to be too graphic but if you clean and butcher deer, you know what I'm talking about.) I can't say the same for steel. While I don't seem to be bothered by the weight of pocketknives, it is lighter than steel also.

I like the Ti framelock because it is an open design that is easy to inspect and is somewhat of a self cleaning lock. I can't say that of lockbacks that get dirty and filled with pocket lint. If it does get crudded up, a quick rinse and you're back in business. I have gotten linerlocks dirty to the point that they would not close due to crud being trapped between the lock and scale, that scenario isn't possible with a framelock.

When using the knife, your grip on the knife reinforces the lock. Grip tighter, the knife is more firmly locked open.

My one complaint about framelocks (that applies to liner locks also) is that in order to close the knife your thumb or finger must be in front of the blade to disengage the lock. You have to start the blade moving toward you thumb or finger and then remove the finger to finish closing the blade. For this reason I don't think that Frame or Liner locks are good choices for children or inexperienced users.


I am reminded of my youth when I purchased my first handgun and was worried that the Colt revolvers had less robust lockwork and would only shoot 25 or 50 thousand round before requiring a tune up at the gunsmith. (I can't remember the exact numbers.) In the last quarter of a century I might have shot 2,000 rounds total through any single one of the guns I own. I ain't wearing out a revolver in my lifetime...or a modern framelock knife.

Grizz