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So, you think your knives are sharp?
- Thread starter mross
- Start date
The Three Swordsmen
Once the Shogun gave a reception to honor the best swordsmen in Japan. All the top samurai were in attendance along with Court nobles and beautiful geisha. A geisha approached the third highest ranked swordsmen and asked; "Sir, can you demonstrate your sword skills for me?" At once, the samurai drew his sword a cut a hovering fly in half. "Very impressive", said the geisha. When she saw the samurai who was the second highest ranked swordsmen in Japan she asked him the same question. He immediately drew his sword and cut two pesky flys in half. "Most impressive", said the geisha. Then she spotted the samurai that was the highest ranked swordsmen in all of Japan. "Honorable Sir", she said "would you be so kind as to demonstrate your sword skill for me?". The samurai drew his sword and cut into the air in the direction of a nearby fly, but the fly buzzed away. "Oh, so sorry you missed", said the geisha. "But I didn't miss", said the samurai humbly "that fly will have no offspring."
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knives cant get that sharp.
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I second that motion. I don't think it's possible.wwblankman said:
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Honestly, I don't think that a thick blade - like a good khuk - could cut like that. Blade thickness and edge geometry are at least as important as an even, polished edge is, as far as "sharpness" is concerned...in my opinion, anyway. Some more knowledgeable folks may have other thoughts on that. I may be talking out my rear here but I'm quite sure that the hypothetical monomolecular edge wouldn't cut like that. Of course, until someone actually produces one, I'm talking out my rear. Like usual. 
A more important question is, "What is sharp? How sharp does my knife need to be?" Or rather, "What kind of sharp do I want?" Traditional wisdom tells us that a highly polished edge is exactly what we want for blades meant for push cuts. (Shaving, skinning, chopping - which is essentially a high-powered push cut if I understand it correctly...that sort of thing.) A rougher, "toothier" edge is better suited to slicing. This brings up the question of what kind of sharp I want, not how sharp.
When I sharpen my maul, I kiss it once or twice on either side with the belt sander at #120 grit, then snap the wire edge off with some forceful stropping with the palm of my hand. It does shave (uncomfortably); while I don't notice a difference in performance between dull and sharp, my room mates swear by it in the sharpened state. I would normally write this off as suggestion but I don't tell them when I've sharpened it; they tell me.
I sharpen my pocket knives on a crap stone at work, using only the rough side. When I'm done they will shave with some effort, but certainly not easily. They will, however, slice ropes and fabric like a lightsaber - exactly what I want them to do. Since I'm only using one grit that hogs a lot of steel the touchups are no problem and only take a minute or two. Plenty of guys have "sharper" pocket knives than this...but their sharpness would not work for me. I do not shave with my pocket knives. I have an electric razor for that. They will slice paper cleanly...good enough.
Can I make them cleaner? Oh, yes. If I'm willing to spend an hour or two, the hairs on my arm will scream in terror when they see the thing coming for them and jump off on their own. This takes a lot of work for me, though, and for what I use them for, they're more efficient with a rougher edge. This was a tough lesson to learn for me. Pushcuts seem to be the standard of sharpness amongst most people and it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't heard of this that my knives were sharpened that way on purpose. There's that old ego thing again.
It took me a very long time to learn how to sharpen a knife properly. Just when I thought that I understood it all, I found out about different types of sharp. I now realize that I have a long way to go.
We're fortunate with our khuks in that we can have the best of both worlds - finely polished on the chopping area and good and rough just forward of the cho for slicing...there's enough blade length to make this work and one ought not to be chopping with the unhardened area anyway.
For swords in particular and khuks in general, technique is probably more important than sharpness. I would not have believed this until I'd seen it, and it took some personal testing to convince me. With proper edge orientation one can take a blade too dull to slice flesh and cut an aluminum can in two cleanly. (Those of you who didn't see the movie, trust me.) With shorter blades it's less of an issue.
A more important question is, "What is sharp? How sharp does my knife need to be?" Or rather, "What kind of sharp do I want?" Traditional wisdom tells us that a highly polished edge is exactly what we want for blades meant for push cuts. (Shaving, skinning, chopping - which is essentially a high-powered push cut if I understand it correctly...that sort of thing.) A rougher, "toothier" edge is better suited to slicing. This brings up the question of what kind of sharp I want, not how sharp.
When I sharpen my maul, I kiss it once or twice on either side with the belt sander at #120 grit, then snap the wire edge off with some forceful stropping with the palm of my hand. It does shave (uncomfortably); while I don't notice a difference in performance between dull and sharp, my room mates swear by it in the sharpened state. I would normally write this off as suggestion but I don't tell them when I've sharpened it; they tell me.
I sharpen my pocket knives on a crap stone at work, using only the rough side. When I'm done they will shave with some effort, but certainly not easily. They will, however, slice ropes and fabric like a lightsaber - exactly what I want them to do. Since I'm only using one grit that hogs a lot of steel the touchups are no problem and only take a minute or two. Plenty of guys have "sharper" pocket knives than this...but their sharpness would not work for me. I do not shave with my pocket knives. I have an electric razor for that. They will slice paper cleanly...good enough.
Can I make them cleaner? Oh, yes. If I'm willing to spend an hour or two, the hairs on my arm will scream in terror when they see the thing coming for them and jump off on their own. This takes a lot of work for me, though, and for what I use them for, they're more efficient with a rougher edge. This was a tough lesson to learn for me. Pushcuts seem to be the standard of sharpness amongst most people and it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't heard of this that my knives were sharpened that way on purpose. There's that old ego thing again.
It took me a very long time to learn how to sharpen a knife properly. Just when I thought that I understood it all, I found out about different types of sharp. I now realize that I have a long way to go.
We're fortunate with our khuks in that we can have the best of both worlds - finely polished on the chopping area and good and rough just forward of the cho for slicing...there's enough blade length to make this work and one ought not to be chopping with the unhardened area anyway.
For swords in particular and khuks in general, technique is probably more important than sharpness. I would not have believed this until I'd seen it, and it took some personal testing to convince me. With proper edge orientation one can take a blade too dull to slice flesh and cut an aluminum can in two cleanly. (Those of you who didn't see the movie, trust me.) With shorter blades it's less of an issue.
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brantoken said:
My life is like TV Guide.
:footinmou
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Thanks to you guys I have spent the morning in my shop cutting freehanging leather, and paper.......
Claim 1 - Cut cigarette paper hanging from clothes pin
I don't have a problem with this one. It would require a short, thin blade - 4-7 inches long, one inch wide and less than 3/32" thick. It can certainly be done.
Claim 2 - Set a cigarette in a rifle cartrige and cut it WITHOUT tipping the case over.
Again, a thinner blade that was differentially tempered, triple quenched and subzero quenched could do this. It's a matter of speed and force. (more below) Also, in our minds we are assuming a perpendicular cutting action. I can almost bet that his cutting was done above 45 degrees and was more vertical than horizontal. (oops.....cutting secret revealed!)
Claim 3 - Cut a half inch thick, 6 inch wide hard leather belt with one stroke while it's suspended from a strip of half-inch masking tape, without breaking the tape.
Seeing how this is the only test I could come close to duplicating, I set to it. At the First Annual Moran Hammer-In, contestants had to cut a 12" square piece of carpet (much more abrasive than leather). The trick is, once you get going, it doesn't really matter how wide it is. If you have good form, you can do it, piece of cake.
Now, there is no such thing as 1/2" thick cow leather. The thickest it comes is 16 oz. Perhaps a different animal skin was used? I wonder if maybe the author just made a typo. I'm sure they'll catch heat about it. I feel sorry for Fikes, because now that it's "public", he's going to have to duplicate it.
Notice in the article that they say "One of his most impressive tests..."
Here's an example: I attended a hammer-in down in Georgia where a 2 inch rope was hung for cutting tests. In the past, I havr had no problem cutting through 2 inches of rope, and have managed 3 inches too. So, on this one, I just took a swing and cut cleanly through it. However, it took another dozen or so attempts until I could repeat it. The rope was not regular sisal, it was tougher and on top of that, it was full of dirt, grime, etc. Gave my Lil' Moby knife a beating, and I didn't have good resharpening equipment on hand.
So, while it's truthful for me to claim that I cut the rope, it's at best partly deceptive. I only managed to cut it twice.
"What's the point, Dan?"
Ok...getting to the point....if you can't repeat it over and over, is it really a good measure of sharpness?
Back to the shop....I did manage to cut a 6" wide piece of 1/8" leather, as well as two pieces taped together (1/4" effective) with Lil' Moby. The thicker it got, the more force and speed required to cut it.
Unfortunately, a thick knife like Moby meant that I ended up breaking the tape it was hanging from. I think if I had a longer blade that was a little thinner, I could do it.
Again, it's really all about speed and force. Is the blade sharp enough to require little force to cut? Can you move it fast enough to get through the cut before the force impacts the tape?
Nowhere in the article does it say what knife he used for the cut. I'm guessing a different one for each "test".
We (the readers) just assume that he's talking about a bowie knife, or hunting knife, or fighter, etc. and that he's using the same one for all the tests.
That said, anytime I see an article's opening picture showing a sword cutting something in half, etc.....I take a deep breath and skip it....The sword crowd is unfortunately laden with much hype, Shiva-style. Notice the knife used to go 2/3 the way through a 2x4? It's a 30+ inch sword. Not a bowie knife. Somebody could easily say "Fikes knives are so sharp, he can cut a 2x4 nearly in half".
Give me a few repeatable tests that Joe-Customer can do in his own home and I'll be happy.
He did mention being able to cut 1" rope 400 times....that is repeatable and worthy of respect. Ed Fowler says he can do the same with his 5160 knives, and up to 1000 cuts with his 52100 knives.
With what I've been studying regarding heat-treating, grain reduction, etc. - I don't have a problem with that. On the contrary, I'm looking forward to the day I can repeat it in my own shop (or at least get close).
Claim 1 - Cut cigarette paper hanging from clothes pin
I don't have a problem with this one. It would require a short, thin blade - 4-7 inches long, one inch wide and less than 3/32" thick. It can certainly be done.
Claim 2 - Set a cigarette in a rifle cartrige and cut it WITHOUT tipping the case over.
Again, a thinner blade that was differentially tempered, triple quenched and subzero quenched could do this. It's a matter of speed and force. (more below) Also, in our minds we are assuming a perpendicular cutting action. I can almost bet that his cutting was done above 45 degrees and was more vertical than horizontal. (oops.....cutting secret revealed!)
Claim 3 - Cut a half inch thick, 6 inch wide hard leather belt with one stroke while it's suspended from a strip of half-inch masking tape, without breaking the tape.
Seeing how this is the only test I could come close to duplicating, I set to it. At the First Annual Moran Hammer-In, contestants had to cut a 12" square piece of carpet (much more abrasive than leather). The trick is, once you get going, it doesn't really matter how wide it is. If you have good form, you can do it, piece of cake.
Now, there is no such thing as 1/2" thick cow leather. The thickest it comes is 16 oz. Perhaps a different animal skin was used? I wonder if maybe the author just made a typo. I'm sure they'll catch heat about it. I feel sorry for Fikes, because now that it's "public", he's going to have to duplicate it.
Notice in the article that they say "One of his most impressive tests..."
Here's an example: I attended a hammer-in down in Georgia where a 2 inch rope was hung for cutting tests. In the past, I havr had no problem cutting through 2 inches of rope, and have managed 3 inches too. So, on this one, I just took a swing and cut cleanly through it. However, it took another dozen or so attempts until I could repeat it. The rope was not regular sisal, it was tougher and on top of that, it was full of dirt, grime, etc. Gave my Lil' Moby knife a beating, and I didn't have good resharpening equipment on hand.
So, while it's truthful for me to claim that I cut the rope, it's at best partly deceptive. I only managed to cut it twice.
"What's the point, Dan?"
Ok...getting to the point....if you can't repeat it over and over, is it really a good measure of sharpness?
Back to the shop....I did manage to cut a 6" wide piece of 1/8" leather, as well as two pieces taped together (1/4" effective) with Lil' Moby. The thicker it got, the more force and speed required to cut it.
Unfortunately, a thick knife like Moby meant that I ended up breaking the tape it was hanging from. I think if I had a longer blade that was a little thinner, I could do it.
Again, it's really all about speed and force. Is the blade sharp enough to require little force to cut? Can you move it fast enough to get through the cut before the force impacts the tape?
Nowhere in the article does it say what knife he used for the cut. I'm guessing a different one for each "test".
We (the readers) just assume that he's talking about a bowie knife, or hunting knife, or fighter, etc. and that he's using the same one for all the tests.
That said, anytime I see an article's opening picture showing a sword cutting something in half, etc.....I take a deep breath and skip it....The sword crowd is unfortunately laden with much hype, Shiva-style. Notice the knife used to go 2/3 the way through a 2x4? It's a 30+ inch sword. Not a bowie knife. Somebody could easily say "Fikes knives are so sharp, he can cut a 2x4 nearly in half".
Give me a few repeatable tests that Joe-Customer can do in his own home and I'll be happy.
He did mention being able to cut 1" rope 400 times....that is repeatable and worthy of respect. Ed Fowler says he can do the same with his 5160 knives, and up to 1000 cuts with his 52100 knives.
With what I've been studying regarding heat-treating, grain reduction, etc. - I don't have a problem with that. On the contrary, I'm looking forward to the day I can repeat it in my own shop (or at least get close).
I've read this thread with interest and not just a little fascination.
When I was working, I always seemed to get asked by colleagues to sharpen their knives and my efforts seemed to be universally acceptable to all concerned (given some of the rubbish I was offered to work on). I guess what I managed fell into the 'plenty sharp enough for the job' category and my efforts often took the owners by surprise, drawing blood despite warnings that the blade had a cutting edge when I gave it back to them.
As a comparative amateur here, the thing that intrigues me is this: If you hone and polish an edge until it is sharp enough to shave with, the blade will cut well, obviously. However, when you're outside without access to the paraphernalia that makes that super edge, are you concerned if you put a notch into it or it becomes less sharp than you started out with? Wouldn't it be less of a chore to only have to rework an edge with whatever it had been sharpened on originally - maybe something that could be carried with you?
I'm fortunate that all my edged tools (grass hook, modern bill hook, khukri and various axes) that I use around the garden can all be re-sharpened using a couple of different grades of diamond file that I keep for the job or a carborundum stone and I only have a shortish walk to the workshop to do the job in good light if needs be. For those of you who go out backpacking into honest-to-goodness wilderness, I'm just curious whether 'shaving sharp' is the best option when you have the bare minimum with which to maintain it.
When I was working, I always seemed to get asked by colleagues to sharpen their knives and my efforts seemed to be universally acceptable to all concerned (given some of the rubbish I was offered to work on). I guess what I managed fell into the 'plenty sharp enough for the job' category and my efforts often took the owners by surprise, drawing blood despite warnings that the blade had a cutting edge when I gave it back to them.
As a comparative amateur here, the thing that intrigues me is this: If you hone and polish an edge until it is sharp enough to shave with, the blade will cut well, obviously. However, when you're outside without access to the paraphernalia that makes that super edge, are you concerned if you put a notch into it or it becomes less sharp than you started out with? Wouldn't it be less of a chore to only have to rework an edge with whatever it had been sharpened on originally - maybe something that could be carried with you?
I'm fortunate that all my edged tools (grass hook, modern bill hook, khukri and various axes) that I use around the garden can all be re-sharpened using a couple of different grades of diamond file that I keep for the job or a carborundum stone and I only have a shortish walk to the workshop to do the job in good light if needs be. For those of you who go out backpacking into honest-to-goodness wilderness, I'm just curious whether 'shaving sharp' is the best option when you have the bare minimum with which to maintain it.
Sorry; forgot to say that I'm just experimenting with a little gizmo called 'Speedy Sharp'. Small tool made in the U.S.A. which can be used to peel some steel off a really dull blade (if you're desperate, I reckon) or can be used chakma-style to rub a cutting edge into existence.
It's probably a bit aggressive in some respects, but has the virtues of being key-ring sized, inexpensive and should last a good long time. Just the job for me working in the garden. It'll work on nearly everything from pruning knives to shears to......you've guessed it, my khuk.
And before anyone asks, no; I don't have shares in the company.
It's probably a bit aggressive in some respects, but has the virtues of being key-ring sized, inexpensive and should last a good long time. Just the job for me working in the garden. It'll work on nearly everything from pruning knives to shears to......you've guessed it, my khuk.
And before anyone asks, no; I don't have shares in the company.
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If you carry a coarse/fine = blue/red DMT Duofold you can maintain a shaving sharp edge in the field.Stroller said:
But you could also do the same thing with a Norton Fine India hone, only problem there is you'd have to carry oil along with you as it is an oil stone only.
That's why I'm so fond of the diamond hones like DMT and EZE-Lap. You don't need oil or water to use them although a good rinse in the water will remove the fines you've ground off.
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I think it's impossible to cut a hanging cigarette paper cigarette in a cartiridge horizontally and slow. And if we're talking about fast cutting, it's all about the speed anyway, isn't it ?
Cutting freehanging newspaper slowly is way harder than taking a fast swipe at it, just for example. It would be interesting to do such tests in slow motion.
Cutting freehanging newspaper slowly is way harder than taking a fast swipe at it, just for example. It would be interesting to do such tests in slow motion.
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So Dan, whats your verdict on 1/2"x6" hard leather hanging from 1/2" masking tape? Impossible, improbable?
Most masking tape I've used could barely hold itself to the wall, let alone hold up a slab-o-cow like that at only 1/2" thick.
Most masking tape I've used could barely hold itself to the wall, let alone hold up a slab-o-cow like that at only 1/2" thick.
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I don't need to tell you guys how many phonies there are posing as experts in the knife business. That's why I hang here, and never read the knife mags. :barf:
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I read the article and read the guys history, and I think he's for real. I'd bet any exaggeration and hyperbole came from the Blade mag writer. I love the pic of the knife he made on page 109 of this same article, called the "Jungle Honey." Plain old 1095 but that things looks badder and sharper than hell. Using a good two handed grip I'd bet the damage you could do with that thing would be fearsome.
I'm just saying don't blame the knifemaker. Half the stuff they write in some of these mags seems to be over the top, and the guy has sure paid his dues if you read his history.
I wish I had the bread to commision a blade like that Jungle Honey, although I have no idea what it costs. After that article, I'm sure the price just went up!
Regards,
Norm
I'm just saying don't blame the knifemaker. Half the stuff they write in some of these mags seems to be over the top, and the guy has sure paid his dues if you read his history.
I wish I had the bread to commision a blade like that Jungle Honey, although I have no idea what it costs. After that article, I'm sure the price just went up!
Regards,
Norm
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Fikes has certainly paid his dues - that's not in question. At least now with me. Anybody who passes the JS & MS tests has my respect, period.
I'm concerned about the 1/2" tape, but what if it's straw tape? There are too many factors. Like someone said - would sure love to see it on film...
I'm concerned about the 1/2" tape, but what if it's straw tape? There are too many factors. Like someone said - would sure love to see it on film...
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- Oct 25, 2004
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I was waiting for Dan to chime in on this.
If we're talking swords...well, that's a different ball game I'll have to try some of these when I get the time. Napoleon Sword, anyone?
Let's just hope that I can manage to hit the paper and not send the cartridge case half a block down the road instead. The occasional airborne beer can has not made me popular with my neighbors.
If we're talking swords...well, that's a different ball game I'll have to try some of these when I get the time. Napoleon Sword, anyone?
Let's just hope that I can manage to hit the paper and not send the cartridge case half a block down the road instead. The occasional airborne beer can has not made me popular with my neighbors.
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Svashtar said:
Svashtar said:
Just read the article.
That is one piece of purty steel Norm. One I wouldn't mind having myself. Satori said:
Well after reading the article I think I know the wherefrom of the 1/2" thick, 6" wide leather belt.
(Always wanted to use that word, "wherefrom."
)Many years ago commonly and in some poor out of the way machine shops today, or at least just a few years ago that I personally know about, the machines of the times were ran with leather belts. Some of these belts were I know 20 feet from pulley too pulley.
I saw an old planer with at least a ten foot belt from pulley to pulley and maybe more.In the old water powered mills the belts commonly ran from a main power shaft.
The more machines the more belts!
On the '40's and 50's Brown & Sharpe automatic screw machines the drive belt from the motor were multiple layer glued up belts that a lacing fixture was used to put steel hooks in each end of the belt folded over on each side to make a loop.
When the loop from one end was matched with the other a piece of catgut the right length was inserted to make a continuous belt, the last several years catgut became impossible to get so nylon was used. The catgut was better.
Anyway to make an already long story shorter generally the longer the belt the thicker it was. A 1/2" thick belt at one time was pretty common. The old time old field pump stations used a pretty long thick belt from the old single cylinder drive motor the 5 or 6 foot flywheel.
I don't know if it's possible to do this test but if it is a 10" thin blade should be enough. I don't think a sword would be as good because of its necessary thickness for durability.
Wow, I actually got ya'll away from your khuks long enough to read. How cool is that!
(Picture me gleefully rubbing my hands) Now if I can get ferguson reading and away from that wootz tulwar my ninjas may have a chance.
Whoops was that out loud? Steve please pay no attention to those guys in the black pj's. Really. It's just your imagination, now go back to reading, War and Peace would be a good choice (Hey, It's tuff getting good ninjas these days)
How cool is that! (Picture me gleefully rubbing my hands) Now if I can get ferguson reading and away from that wootz tulwar my ninjas may have a chance.
Whoops
was that out loud? Steve please pay no attention to those guys in the black pj's. Really. It's just your imagination, now go back to reading, War and Peace would be a good choice (Hey, It's tuff getting good ninjas these days)