Soak temp and time for 52100 and 5160?

[Troop]

yep we all have our thing

i ll keep working on getting better edges on my razors and keep pushing how thin i can make a kitchen knife

as to the hair popping edge its jsut a fun trick less you are making razors
on a hunter you might be far better haveigna slightly toothy edge as meat is differet to cut then hair
but as said we all have our thing

Butch, your spelling, grammar, and sentence structure is getting better, too.

 

[Tai Goo]

I think we do each have our own ideals, reasoning, goals and obsessions. Some of them can be very contagious, but I don’t see anything wrong with being enthusiastic and exited about the work we are doing as individuals. However, in spite of all my personal opinions and enthusiasm, I hope no one ever gets the idea that I'm trying to say my way is right for everyone or for every knife. I'm all for diversity in the craft.

When it gets right down to it, generally speaking… there really isn’t a good “scientific” reason for even making a knife "by hand" in this day and age. So, I figure it must ultimately be about something else (other than "material science").

 

[james terrio]

The value of bending tests is certainly in the eye of the beholder. But regardless, it's important to be clear. Otherwise any test is worse than meaningless.

That 5 1/4 inch blade made 14 90 degree flexes, back and forth, I would call it 7 180 degree flexes.

With all due respect, that makes as much sense as saying, "Flexing the blade 10
degrees, 18 times shows the same degree of flexibility."

I'm not trying to be a pain, but calling results whatever we want to call them, to make them sound more impressive, really gets in the way of a worthwhile discussion. At best it's confusing and at worst it's outright hogwash.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I have been at a knife show in Boise Idaho, just got back.

Why or what for?
Twice in my life I had a knife fail when I needed it, one failure nearly put me and my partner in a very bad situation that easily could have cost a loss of life.

Those two situations and tales of other life threatening situations provided more than enough motivation to make the kind of knife we have been talking about.

Like Tai said we all make our kind of knife, what we have learned pushing our 52100 to high levels of performance has been a challenge we have highly enjoyed. What we have learned has proven to be beneficial to some makers in the knife community as well as for Rex in his laboratory working with other steels.

We continue to experiment, teach and learn, this is our choice and our joy. Just last week after almost 20 years of working with the same steel from the same pour new knowledge or revealed itself.

When we started Rex and I vowed to learn as much as we could about 52100 steel and push it to the limit as far as we could and share all the information we learned in language almost anyone can understand and hopefully we have remained true to our goals.

 

[james terrio]

Performance testing is definitely important, and also fun. For instance, my CPM154, through-hardened hunting and EDC blades WILL NOT withstand a 90 degree bend, and I make no bones about it. I know this from breaking a couple from each HT batch, so I can clearly tell potential customers how much abuse they'll take. They will break cleanly at about 30 degrees, so don't use them as a pry bar. Other alloys and HT methods are available for that sort of extreme use. This is only fair.

What wouldn't be fair is me bench-pressing 100 pounds ten times, then telling folks I can bench-press 1,000 pounds.

 

[Tai Goo]

I have been at a knife show in Boise Idaho, just got back.

Why or what for?
Twice in my life I had a knife fail when I needed it, one failure nearly put me and my partner in a very bad situation that easily could have cost a loss of life.

Those two situations and tales of other life threatening situations provided more than enough motivation to make the kind of knife we have been talking about.

Like Tai said we all make our kind of knife, what we have learned pushing our 52100 to high levels of performance has been a challenge we have highly enjoyed. What we have learned has proven to be beneficial to some makers in the knife community as well as for Rex in his laboratory working with other steels.

We continue to experiment, teach and learn, this is our choice and our joy. Just last week after almost 20 years of working with the same steel from the same pour new knowledge or revealed itself.

When we started Rex and I vowed to learn as much as we could about 52100 steel and push it to the limit as far as we could and share all the information we learned in language almost anyone can understand and hopefully we have remained true to our goals.

To me Ed, it's not so important what a man's personal goals are (give or take), but rather how well he stuck to his guns and "successful" he has been in achieving his goals...

You my friend, are at the very top of what it is you do!

Cheers!

 

[me2]

Why or what for?
Twice in my life I had a knife fail when I needed it, one failure nearly put me and my partner in a very bad situation that easily could have cost a loss of life.

Would being able to bend them have been better, or having them stronger so they could neither bend nor break? I just can't imagine a use for a knife that would require the blade to bend. But, as you make them, you get to decide what you want them to do. In that regard, I'd say you have met your goals.

 

[Tai Goo]

I think there are obviously some hypothetical/theoretical situations where a knife might need to be used as a pry bar, or bent into a crook to hollow out a canoe, re- straightened with a rock and still shave hair etc. However, I don't think the probability is really that high.,,, It could happen though...

Sometimes it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it…

 

[james terrio]

I just can't imagine a use for a knife that would require the blade to bend.

Well, fillet and boning knives do their job better when they can flex without breaking. That has as much to do with the geometry of the blade as with the HT, though. Taken to an extreme, a knife that flops around like a fish in use would be next to useless, no matter how many times you can bend it back and forth or whether it takes a "set".

As for survival/outdoor knives, I can certainly see a need for a knife that could, say, be jammed into a crevice to stop you sliding down a cliff, or pry a heavy rock off your ankle without breaking. But as you say, personally I'd prefer a knife that can take the stress without bending much if at all.

Carving out a canoe? Really? I think if you had the real need for a canoe your time would be better spent burning out the hollow, regardless of the knife you have on you. But that's a discussion for W&SS I suppose.

It's fun to remember that the whole 90-degree bend test came about as part of ABS testing requirements. The ABS and most of its members make it very clear that this has very little to do with the performance of the knife, and everything to do with the smith showing that he can control hardness and toughness as he sees fit.

 

[Tai Goo]

Carving out a canoe? Really? I think if you had the real need for a canoe your time would be better spent burning out the hollow, regardless of the knife you have on you. But that's a discussion for W&SS I suppose.

Maybe,... but with a knife bent into a loop or a crook, you wouldn't necessarily need a fire.

Crooked knives:
http://www.caribooblades.com/hookknives.html

A knife that could be bent into a variety of forms, is an interesting idea.

 

[Ed Fowler]

With what we have learned we could easily make a knife that could be bent in various curves as the need called for, straightened and used like most knives.

No - I do not want to make that kind of knife, we have played around with it and it was fun, but not for what I want to achieve.

 

[Tai Goo]

Sorry Ed, I guess I was just giving an example of how it could be used and come in handy. I'm sure you are going more for a balance of strength, hardness, toughness etc. I think geometry is a big part of it, not just the HT. However, from the sounds of it, one of your blades could be bent into a “crooked knife” and re-straightened, if enough force was applied and there was a need for it. I know that's not the intent though.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Nothing to be sorry for Tai - we have had many conversations and I enjoy them. That is what knife making and discussion is for. Some think we butt heads, but they don't get it!
Take Care Friend
Ed

 

[james terrio]

Maybe,... but with a knife bent into a loop or a crook, you wouldn't necessarily need a fire.

I'm sure it can be done, many folks enjoy the hobbies of carving out the insides of things with specialized knives. Here's an idea, you carve a canoe with a bendy knife, I'll make one with firewood cut down by my non-bendy knife, and whoever floats first gets free drinks from the other one

Some think we butt heads, but they don't get it!

Point taken. Hope I don't come off harshly; that's not my intent at all. All in good fun, gentlemen. I reckon all of us are set enough in our ways that not many minds will be changed 180 degrees (*ahem*) but thank goodness we're not taking it personally. At least I'm not.

 

[Tai Goo]

I'm sure it can be done, many folks enjoy the hobbies of carving out the insides of things with specialized knives. Here's an idea, you carve a canoe with a bendy knife, I'll make one with firewood cut down by my non-bendy knife, and whoever floats first gets free drinks from the other one

I get your point,... but I could do everything with my bendy knife that you did with your non-bendy knife, and then bend it and do even more stuff,... then straighten it back out. Best of both worlds!

What ever floats your boat! LOL

 

[Todd Robbins]

James, I think you misunderstood what Ed meant by the 180 degree bend remark. He bent the blade 90 degres on e direction, then back to straight, then 90 degrees the other direction, effectively travelling 180 degrees, thus making either 14 separate 90 degree bends or 7 different 180 degree bends.

If you did understand and I'm out of line, I apologize. It just seemed from your bench press argument that you didn't understand what he actually did.

todd

 

[me2]

For the sake of closing the loop, lets just call it 3 separate 360 degree bends. You have to go from the reference point of a straight blade. From there, it's multiple 90 degree bends. If you can play a game of horseshoes, its 180 degrees.

 

[butcher_block]

For the sake of closing the loop, lets just call it 3 separate 360 degree bends. You have to go from the reference point of a straight blade. From there, it's multiple 90 degree bends. If you can play a game of horseshoes, its 180 degrees.

is that a ringer a leaner or jsut close

i have said before its not my cup and i don't think it's the end all be all for the steel maybe the cutting edge is great I am still not sure i cant do that in a kiln with close eye on the lcd read out (not the glow of steel to judge temp) to get great things


troop if i could spell write or punctuate i would have a nice chushy day job and be a knife maker by hobby
however i have not that skill so i will be a poor starving knife maker (and love working with my hands )

 

[me2]

Just a quick update. After a little digging, there is some research that shows an ultrafine (11-15) grain size for 52100 specifically, using only heat treatment on stock as supplied from a mill. The carbides were also smaller than the 0.2 micron from standard heat treatment. Not surprisingly, strength and hardness were also higher for the same tempering temperatures.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Our last student is in his last semester studying to be a metallurgical mining engineer. He showed me a Charpy curve, peak performance was predicted at a 400 degree temper.

Rate of reduction by forging will influence performance.

Where did you read that information? I would really like a reference.