SOG Revolver Survival Knife?

The only problem I could see using a cheap hatchet would be the head/handle junction. Repeated blows would cause loosening of the head. I would go for a 7" minimum blade, 3/16" or 1/4" thick full tang fixed blade before a cheap hatchet. Of course having both would be better. :) A good quality hatchet that is. More importantly is preparation before venturing into an area where a possible survival situation could occur. That being said, having the appropriate equipment at hand.
Scott
 
Cliff Stamp said:
khukuris, parangs, goloks-Cliff

Are you sure that the "intended" purpose of these knives is to cut TREES?

Or are they more machete type knives intended for light brush?

Unless someone has suspended the laws of physics, a sharpened heavier head on an axe at the end of a longer handle is going to carry more cutting force that a knife anyday.
 
The question at hand is the SOG revolver as a SURVIVAL KNIFE. By my definition a survival knife is the knife you decided to pack in your survival gear. It is entirely valid to question the revolvers strength when batoning or unsticking the knife when wedged in wood becuase if it is in a survival situation it could be called upon to do any of the tasks Cliff has mentioned.

The advice to "just carry a hatchet" is fine if you're headed into a planned event. Survival situations are dependant upon what you decided to pack in the emergency gear and the strength issue of the SOG Revolver is a good question to explore.

So far we've only really discussed one time catostrophic failure. What about repeated use? I have never applied enough pressure to a folder to cause catostrophic pivot failure but I have used many of them long term to the point that they loosen up and become dangerous. It is more likely that the revolver would fail in this regard after repeated use as a hatchet.

If it holds together its a great concept for a survival knife giving the survivor a knife and saw for fire, shelter, and game prep. It seems to me that the point of this knife is to reduce the over-all load of gear carried in a survival pack, a valid concept.

Here in Brazil it would be an effective tool combined with a machete. I've found saws to be helpful when shaping large bamboo. The hatchet is dead weight here, you have to have a machete. In rainy season you have to split wood to light fires. I would rather baton with a knife because machetes are thin and tear up the baton. The strength of the pivot/locking system was my only concern. Mac
 
The Last Confederate said:
Are you sure that the "intended" purpose of these knives is to cut TREES?

Or are they more machete type knives intended for light brush?
Some are some are not. The large Ang Khola khukuris are not optomized for light brush. Parangs and goloks are often 1/4" thick, this isn't a machete profile. The Valiant blades have the convex taper to perform well in thick woods. Some goloks are ground much thinner of course, some are not.

Unless someone has suspended the laws of physics, a sharpened heavier head on an axe at the end of a longer handle is going to carry more cutting force that a knife anyday.
You are ignoring the physics of the wedging which happens around the much thicker edge profile of the cheap hatchet.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
You are ignoring the physics of the wedging which happens around the much thicker edge profile of the cheap hatchet.Cliff

Nope...it will still be more effective than a knife by the greater impact and less effort by the user than a lighter knife.

It takes much more effort to cut wood with a lighter knife than a heavier axe/hatchet.
 
The Last Confederate said:
...it will still be more effective than a knife ...
Which knives have you used?

It takes much more effort to cut wood with a lighter knife than a heavier axe/hatchet.
A 1/4" thick, 10" bowie weighs the same as a small hatchet.


-Cliff
 
A friend and I did a fair amount of chopping on a triplast week. We had a 6" sabre grind knife and a Wetterling #13 hatchet. The hatchet easily out performed the knife in situations where there was a solid back stop i.e. chopping wood against an improvised chopping block. One of the things that the hatchet excelled at was going through the very seasoned Beech that was lying around. It was like iron and I wasnt willing to chance damaging the edge on my knife after seeing it struggle to penetrate anywhere near the Wetterling. If I had been in a survival situation I would have had to stay away from the thicker parts of this dead wood for fear of really FUBAR'ing the edge of the knife. I have no doubts that it could have split the logs but cutting through it was clearly the job for the axe. A mention of the Wetterling here. During three days of heavy chopping of very hard woods (Seasoned and sun baked) it retained its edge and showed no deformation along the edge at all. Its very impressive for such a small and cheap hatchet.

While I agree with Cliff in some parts of this thread I cant beleive that in most chopping situations a knife is superior. if its thinner stuff you can chop down into the branches where they come from the main stem/trunk then lit then parallel to a tree trun or even firn ground and chop them with a single swipe into managable lengths.
 
Its very impressive for such a small and cheap hatchet.
Yeah, aside from fit and finish issues, they are GB class. I have read other reports of much better looking ones than what I saw so I believe that I got a pretty sloppy one. I would buy others except I can't get any local. It is cheaper for me to buy GB.

...I cant beleive that in most chopping situations a knife is superior.
Not the knife you mentioned. A GB Wildlife hatchet would outchop a SOG SEAL, Strider WB, TOPS Steel Eagle, etc., many times over. Primary grinds are too low and the edges way to thick and obtuse and the balance is too neutral (except on the TOPS).

Not all knives are like that though. Get a decent wood working large blade with either a full convex profile like the Valiants, or a high flat grind with a 0.035" or less edge with a balance significantly blade heavy. Justin is now offering the RDK knives with flat grinds so get one from him and specify a thin wood working edge.

You won't have any problems damaging the edge on 5160 either, his heat treat seems to be pretty solid from what I have read, knifetester has one and has likely either got a thin edge specified or ground a high convex one. If he has I would put that against any cheap hatchet any day, and it should be in the same class as a decent hatchet on small woods.

-Cliff
 
Where do I start ? :)

For those who have not had the chance to read this, I would appeciate it if you could read this story below of how the Revolver began, it will explain a lot. Thanks.

http://www.thedailytimes.com/sited/story/html/170864


Frank k ask this, what are your thoughts on the SOG Revolver as a survival knife ? My thoughts are unfair, obviously because this is my baby. :rolleyes: The Revolver has been used for about 2 full years now, maybe a little longer, with excellent results as an outdoor cutting tool.

As I have stated in other threads, it is not the perfect "do all" outdoor knife, but it sure does work well. The SOG Revolver cuts very well, and saws very well. That is what it was designed for, anything else it can do is a bonus, as it would be with any knife.

If the Revolver can be carried into the field easily (it can), and used to cut poles to make a shelter (it can), then drop a couple or three trees to feed to a fire (it can), then I think it has done what it was designed to do. My vision was to make a straight knife with the ability to saw and cut, using the basic age old straight knife design as a "body" to hold both. It is very strong, it will cut and saw all day long, as long as your hands can grip it.

Those that have the Revolver understands how well it works. It was not designed for batoning, as most 5 inch blades are not. But as I said, it will baton if needed. I don't break knives unless it's an accident, and I have broken a few by not using them in the proper way. This is a common problem with any mechanical creation made by man. No matter what tool, no matter what that tool is used for, eventually it can be destroyed by me........ :D

I try to extend the longivity of the tool by using it in the proper manner. Occasionally I get in a hurry with certain knives and flex a blade farther than it should be and it breaks. I have read Cliffs reviews and test for about 3 years and feel he does an excellent job explaining the technical aspects of steels and blade edges. But I disagree with his views on using a tool for everything it was NOT designed to do, until it finally breaks.

It reminds me of when I was young and went through a muddy plowed field with street tires on my old Plymouth Valiant, I thought it would go, so I just kept the pedal to the metal :eek: , eventually I blew my tire out because it got so hot. This is a classic example of not using the right "tool" (tire) for the job.

I feel that the real world test for any tool is this : continuous use, day after day or week after week of using the tool for exactly what it was designed to do. Then month after month, If the tool holds up, then it is a great cutting tool and is doing exactly as it was designed to do.

I respect Cliff very much, I think from what I have read he is a very intelligent person. But I feel that his test fall short because he always breaks his knives............ :( .

Temper, I would rather mash my finger with a hammer than to let Cliff break one of my knives :D , not because I am afraid it won't do what it was designed to do, but only because I know he will break it, no matter what.

Cliff, you can break the Revolver, but if you use the Revolver for what it was designed to do, cut and saw, and you try to wear it out by doing this, then I am guessing it will be several years before we get to read the "failure" review.

Robbie Roberson ;)
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Which knives have you used?

I've done batoning with everything from the 111mm Victorinox lockblades to Buck folders up to custom fixed blades. NONE of them is even remotely as efficient as a properly sharpened hatchet, much less an axe.


A 1/4" thick, 10" bowie weighs the same as a small hatchet.Cliff

But the overwhelming majority of the weight is at the end of the handle on a hatchet, not spread across the length of a blade. When swung it will concentrate more impact at the hatchet head, than a knife that weighs the same but is shorter and lighter on the end.

I have sat sown and demostrated this and discussed it with a friend that teaches Physics at the university level. He explains it better than I do, but it is simply impossible for a knife to chop wood as effectively as a tool that is specifically designed, and actually evolved over thousands of years of human use to do that very task.

Think about it, if one tool could do both equally, why would the 2 separate tools have evolved?

Axes......chop
Knives....cut

Neither does the others job as well as it can.
 
I think an explanation from the designer of the Revolver himself is enough to satisfy anyone's curiousity about the knife. You can go on Robbie's word because I have the utmost respect for him. I've been corrosponding with Robbie for over a year now and feel his word is as solid as a rock. I agree with everything he has stated above, well almost everything, but we won't get into that here. :)
Scott
 
The Last Confederate, I don't have to think about it, I agree with you 100%.

Scott, your makin my head swell................. :rolleyes: Thanks.

Robbie Roberson ;)
 
Robbie Roberson said:
The Last Confederate, I don't have to think about it, I agree with you 100%. Robbie Roberson ;)

Ah shucks your makin' me blush.

I haven't had a chance to handle a Revolver yet, but I recently watched a "survival" show in cold climates on FitTV and when I saw how important a saw and or axe is for shelter buidling, that was the frist knife I thought of!

Gonna have to get one now.
 
The Last Confederate, it's funny you mention that.

One night last year I was watching Discovery channel, a special was on about U.S. Navy survival training way up in the mountains with snow and all that bad stuff. I was half asleep when I saw one of the instructors cutting a tree with a knife that looked exactly like the Revolver. In fact, I am certain it was a SEAL Revolver I saw because he had the saw locked in and I saw the hole in the saw blade for the lock pin.

Later on, I was contacted on another forum by a U.S. Navy survival instructor that in fact had been using the SEAL Revolver for some time in training. Neddless to say, I did not sleep a wink that night. As I said, it's not the perfect "end all' survival knife, but it does some pretty amazing things for a 5 inch blade and saw.

Robbie Roberson ;)
 
Robbie Roberson said:
But I feel that his test fall short because he always breaks his knives............ .
Not even in the majority of the cases are the knives broken in the reviews. In fact if you eliminate the reviews where makers or users specifically asked me to break them, it happens in a minority of the cases. For some knives though, especially anything promoted for survivial / emergency use, yes I think it is useful to know how and where it will break. This of course is no different from the tensile strength of fishing line, it lets you know where to use it. If the labels were undefined then the user would have to break them himself to figure it out.

... continuous use, day after day or week after week of using the tool for exactly what it was designed to do
It is kind of hard to do that when you can't find out what not to do with it because its use limits are not specified. Now if you told me how much you loaded the blade, and how much impact you applied to it and it held up, I would be able to do it. But until then I would either have to :

1) take it light and end up de-valuating the tool by not fully using it to its maximal scope of work

2) use it fully and see where it breaks and thus fully evalaute its scope of work and thus its usefulness compared to other similar tools

The Last Confederate said:
I've done batoning with everything from the 111mm Victorinox lockblades to Buck folders up to custom fixed blades. NONE of them is even remotely as efficient as a properly sharpened hatchet, much less an axe.
Well yeah, batoning with a knife doesn't allow you to match the performance of a hatchet for chopping, but it can for splitting on some woods that are difficult to split.

However there are lots of knives that don't need to be batoned to chop wood effectively and will outperform a cheap hardware store hatchet many times to one on the woods I noted in the above.

So which custom knives have you used that can't out chop that cheap hardware store hatchet? Did you actually use one which was designed to chop wood well?

When swung it will concentrate more impact at the hatchet head, than a knife that weighs the same but is shorter and lighter on the end.
A 10" bowie has the same length and weight, the center of mass is higher out on the hatchet (it isn't in the head though) which gives it a greater moment of inertia and thus impact, so a cheap hatchet will make a better hammer than a bowie, however now you have to consider how this energy is translated into wedging apart the wood and here a decent knife will outperform a cheap hatchet far greater than the impact energy difference.

I have sat sown and demostrated this and discussed it with a friend that teaches Physics at the university level.
So have I, the physics teaching part. Give me your friends email so we can discuss it as right now he is only considering part of the equation.

As a starting point, take one of the blades I mentioned in the above and your cheap hatchet and press them through one inch hemp rope, now give that data to your friend and ask him to apply that concept to the wood chopping starting off with a simple viewpoint using hookes law.

...think about it, if one tool could do both equally, why would the 2 separate tools have evolved?
Why are there different languages? Note the blades I mentioned, golok, khukuri, parang, have also evolved to cut wood as part of their design. In fact khukuris are very similar to hatchets in balance and overall design. They don't look it on the outset. But lay one alongside the other and note that only the wide sweeping part of the blade gets used for chopping, the lower part is more or less handle, it is just more useful than an axe as you can use this for draw cutting.

Now if you want to argue that a high end hatchet is a quality wood chopping tool, of course it is, but this isn't your origional claim which was a cheap hardware store hatchet which has only a fraction of the performance of a high end hatchet. Even the high end hatchets by the way can't match the optimal wood working blades on a large class of wood. Take a look at the chopping ability some of the ABS guys get with their blades on 2x4's. This is the main size of wood you use for shelter building, it is in fact overkill for most unless you want to be building something to actually stand up in.

-Cliff
 
Robbie,

Interesting knife. Once dulled, how is the saw sharpened?

Also, the story of your knife's birth was inspiring. I liked what you did with the initial check from SOG. Good for you!!!

S.
 
Cliff, maybe it's just the shock of seeing all the blades broken that seems to magnify the impact. :eek: I just remember seeing many broken blades, for some reason it made me sad. :(

Sure wish I had all the blades that broke............. :D

Sidewinder, thanks, I appreciate that, it's something I knew I had to do the night I got the idea. I have not sharpened any of mine yet, (I have 4) and I have used them pretty steady for about 2 years. The factory might be able to resharpen the saw, since they do most of the blades, not sure on this though.

Robbie Roberson ;)
 
Cliff, sorry I missed this part, I will try to respond to it as best I can.

You said...........

It is kind of hard to do that when you can't find out what not to do with it because its use limits are not specified.

My answer.......
If use limits were specified on most everything manufactured in the world, then each product would have to have a 5 pound book written to go along with each product. This reminds me of certain things manufactured that says, "Don't eat" This could very well apply to a rubber ball :rolleyes: , but someone got tired of people saying that someone might decide to eat it, so they finally said we better tell them not to. Thank goodness knife companies don't have to make that list. Most companies just say this is a sharp cutting tool, use with caution and in accordance with it's purpose (in so many words).

Common sense should tell me not to try to cut a steel beam with the Revolvers wood/bone saw, but if I had to try, and it broke the teeth off, then I sure would not say the knife failed. And I sure would not tell anyone I tried to cut a steel beam with a wood/bone saw. :)

You said.........

Now if you told me how much you loaded the blade, and how much impact you applied to it and it held up, I would be able to do it. But until then I would either have to :

My answer...........
I can't give you this information because I just don't know. I have never had a meter with me when I have been using my Revolvers in the woods. I just cut and saw like a maniac when I am in the woods. And I really don't think having a meter connected to my Revolver would be that much help, it usually takes smooth steady pressure to cut the things I cut with the saw. And I have never had a problem other than I am getting old and fat, I sweat a lot and have a really bad back. :grumpy:

The impact could probably be measured by the amount of blood blister than came up after batoning my thumb one time when I was using my Revolver to split some 2 inch wood, it was impact enough to make me scream like a mashed cat and dance around the woods like a crazy man for twenty minutes. If I had an impact meter hooked up I would guess it would have maxed it out. :eek:...........Oh, the Revolver held up great but my thumb still has a dent in it.

You said.........

1) take it light and end up de-valuating the tool by not fully using it to its maximal scope of work

My answer........
I would take it for what it is, a saw equal to most quality 5 inch saws, use common sense and the knife will cut and saw like crazy. It won't cut steel, (aluminum yes :D ) and it won't cut rocks. But it will cut most things you may encounter in the woods that a wood/bone saw are normally designed to cut.

You said........

2) use it fully and see where it breaks and thus fully evalaute its scope of work and thus its usefulness compared to other similar tools

My answer.........
Use it fully, with common sense, and it will perform as good as any wood/bone saw in the world IMO. It already compares to any good quality tool. If you use it fully while also using common sense, and it breaks, then SOG will examine the knife and if they find it should not have broken because you were just cutting or sawing, (because thats what is designed to do), then they will replace it. The scope of work must be great, because I give out before my Revolver will. :(

Cliff, there are a couple of very key words I have been using that I think is very important in everything we do in life. The key words are, "Common Sense". I think these words literally play a major role in everything we do from A to Z.

Please use the three C's when using knives or saws..........Caution, Care, and Common sense. (I just made that up) :rolleyes:

Robbie Roberson ;)
 
Robbie Roberson,
That was a very nice newspaper article. It was very nice of you and your wife to donate the initial proceeds to the Children's Hospital.

Saws as outdoors tools

First let me say I am not a survival or wilderness skills expert by any stretch of the imagination. I do like go camping and such, and have an interest in the subject.
I think a saw is one of the most important tools and outdoorsman can have in his arsenal. I rarely, if ever, venture into the woods without a saw of some type.

A saw is very safe and efficient to use for felling sticks and bucking to length. For my uses, a saw is much more efficient than either the axe or the knife for this work, and history bears this out, simply look at the rise of the cross cut saw and its implications of axe felling in the timber industry. Basically, once good saws, usually two man units, came into play the use of the felling axe declined significantly. Of course this was on wood *much* larger than anyone would use for camping or survival use.

I am not trying to discount the revolver design, but I much prefer to have seperate tools, each optimized for their task. Wood saws come in a variety of sizes, fixed blade pruning saws, bow (Swede) saws folding saws (Bahco, Opinel, Gerber, etc) and my favorite the folding frame buck saws (the Sawvivor, Duluth Pack, etc).

Opinel makes two folding saws that I know of, a small one the size of large folder (5" blade or so), and it is super light and easy to carry, it will easily take dwon shelter pole sixed wood. Move up a step to the Bahco folding saw or a decent pruning saw, and you can actually take down just about any size wood that you would want to in a survival situtation. Working with anything much larger would be very energy consuming (see historical accounts of the massive food intake requirements of northern lumberjacks.)

A high quality folding buck saw, like Duluth Pack folding Saw or the Sawvivor is like having a portable lumber mill.

Knives vs Hatchet

First of all, I think we need to distinguish between an axe and a hatchet. A hatchet, such as the GB Mini or Wildlife hatchet, is usually defined as a one handed tool. When you move up to the axe class, such as the GB Small Forest or Scandinavian, you are talking about a different tool. A small axe is a much heavier, much more powerful tool than a hatchet. An axe uses a heavier head, longer handle and larger mucle groups are used when swinging it. This makes a huge difference. In my opinion, using the words hatchet and axe interchangable is like using knife (think a small paring knife) and a broad sword interchangably.

There are many quality axe makers, see Lee Reeve for an example of a nice custom hatchet that will outperform similiar sized GB hatchets (from reviews I have read, I don't own a Reeve). Still, when I think of quality hatchets, there is only that consistently makes the grade of hatchets I like out of the box, Gransfors Bruk. You can take lesser heads, fine tune them, add custom handles and have an exceptional working tool See Jim Aston's site for example) , but this requires a lot of effort, epecially when you can pick up the phone or click your mouse and have a GB delivered.

I really like hatchets and axes for some uses. I have most of the GB line (Mini, Wildlife, SFA and Scandinavian), I do not own the felling axe, becuase if I need to take down sticks bigger than the Scandinavian is capable of I will be using a saw.

There have been so many disccusions about knives vs axes, by really experienced people, yet their is never a resloution becuase much of it is subjective, persoanl preference relating to style of use, tasks being performed, physical abilities and limitations and simply what people are used to.

For my uses, a big knife (10" class up to the Goloks and such) are mucj more of a general use tool, whereas an axe or hatchet is much more limited in scope.

As Cliff points out above, when the wood gets really small and springy a good brush blade really comes into its own. Here, blade velocity and edge sharpness are really the name of the game. Try clearing saplings with a double bit felling axe, it is actually very difficult. You have to have exceptional aim, a great deal of concentration (to avoid really over- penetrating), and there is just lots of wasted energy.

For a wide variety of camp chores, I find a large knife to be at least as good as a small hatchet, shaping wood for example. For many things, like food prep, the knife is the clear winner.

I've done batoning with everything from the 111mm Victorinox lockblades to Buck folders up to custom fixed blades. NONE of them is even remotely as efficient as a properly sharpened hatchet, much less an axe.
AND
We had a 6" sabre grind knife and a Wetterling #13 hatchet. The hatchet easily out performed the knife . . .

Yes, a decent hatchet will out-chop a Swiss Army knife, buck folder or even the best of the 6" class knives. Now take that hatchet and compare it to a good (not even the best) of the 10" class knives, Ranger RD9, Becker BK9, Swamp Rat, etc. Try it over a wide range of uses. I'll bet you'll be suprised by how versatile the big knife is and well it performs. Even big knives designed for lighter use (soft vegetation) such as the Livesay RCM, Ontario 12" machete, Martindale Golok and Jungle knife and such will be equal to a hatchet at most tasks, and much more efficient at others (limbing, food prep, brush work.) Note, the Martindale golok is a small machete type, not the thicker, convex forged goloks that I think of as compromising the golok class.

Now move up a step to the golok class blades, the only ones I have worked with are from Perth, AU Valiant Goloks You can read a ton of reviews on the web, just do a meta or google search. Lots of reading in the various outdoor forums.

These are blades that exceed hatchets, and are at the small axe level. They are priced reasonably, though the wait is sometimes very long (months) before you get your knives.

I have used HI Khuks, while very powerful they do not match well with my use style of physical ability.

Re: Ranger RD9
, knifetester has one and has likely either got a thin edge specified or ground a high convex one. If he has I would put that against any cheap hatchet any day, and it should be in the same class as a decent hatchet on small woods.

The RD9 is a very solid knife. As Cliff points out, it is overbuilt for pure wood craft. However, like Cliff wrote just order it with a thinner edge (when Justin returns from Iraq.) if you will be limiting the scope of use to wood work, and even thinner still if you are planning on just clear, soft woods.

I have actually not worked woth the RD9 much outside of initial inspection. I have been waiting for a comparison blade to be finished. I wanted to compare the RD9 to the Becker BK9. While I like the grinds on the BK9, the handle design and materials are just horrible for me, though this is very subjective. So I sent my BK9 off to a custom knife maker and he is cutting off the hook and adding wood scales with contouring. Once it is back, and I ahve more time, then I can have some fun with them.

I have not reduced the edge profile on the Ranger yet. This is odd for me, since usually I would take it to the belt sander right away.

I want to do some heavy work with it (metals, hard plastics and such), then reduce the edge profile for woodcraft.

Even with its stock profile, I would take the RD9 up against a cheap hardware store hatchet anyday in terms or sheer chopping power, and it will easily outclass such a hatchet in terms of scope of work, simply much broader.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Now if you want to argue that a high end hatchet is a quality wood chopping tool, of course it is, but this isn't your origional claim which was a cheap hardware store hatchet which has only a fraction of the performance of a high end hatchet. Even the high end hatchets by the way can't match the optimal wood working blades on a large class of wood. Take a look at the chopping ability some of the ABS guys get with their blades on 2x4's. This is the main size of wood you use for shelter building, it is in fact overkill for most unless you want to be building something to actually stand up in. -Cliff

And you are again ignoring the fact that I also said "properly sharpened"...yes the edge on a low end hatchet sucks, but put a better edge on it and you raise the performance level.
 
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