Sole authorship...how far do you go?

C L Wilkins

C L Wilkins

Joined
Mar 18, 1999
Messages
2,112
I have really taken this to heart lately...how much of the knife is "mine"? I have taken to where I am trying to make as much as possible of the knife, down to the tang or buttcap nut. Overkill? Maybe...but it makes me happy.

No, I don't smelt my own steel but you know where I am coming from. How about you folks?

C Wilkins
 
This is an interesting question. Obviously as you have pointed out there can be degrees of sole authorship. In it's strictest sense I think sole authorship would mean smelting your own steel from raw materials and there are several guys out there doing just that. However, if you follow that strictest line of reasoning, if you use wood on the handle you'd have to cut the tree down and cut it up yourself and you'd have to make your own glue rather than using store bought epoxy and if you used brass or bronze on a guard or handle, well of course you'd have to smelt the ore for that also. If you used stag for the handle, well you'd have to go hunting wouldn't you.

In my opinion, sole authorship of a knife, as the general knife making community refers to it, would be shaping every part of the knife from stocks of materials that have no relation to the shape or intended use of the finished project. It also would mean all embellishments to the knife (like etchings, engravings and carvings) would be performed by the same maker also. I would have to include the heat treatment in the sole authorship also. You've got to admit without the heat treatment it's just a hunk of useless steel. My opinions only (for what they are worth!). I'm interested to hear what everyone else has to say.

On a side note, if a maker used pattern welded steel made by someone else, I wouldn't include that knife in the sole authorship category either.

On another side note, after thinking about this some, I'd have to say that folder makers probably have it harder. While there are guys out there who actually machine every part of the folder, including the screws, I wouldn't go so far as to say a folder maker has to make his screws and washers to claim sole authorship.
 
I would have to agree with Silent, I prety much make every part of my knives, however, I don't smelt my own steel, nor do I cut down my own trees--except for some hickory.:)

I do make my pomel nuts, but that's more because it's easier to make them on the spot than to buy a selection.

Basicly to me it means from barstock to handle material to sheaths, I forge, grind, and shape it myself, includeing heat treat.

When it's all said and done, what ever a knife maker does, it depends on his style and where he want's to go.
 
I Agree with the other's I Like Most Buy most of my Material's Make My own Damascus Use Bought Wood / Stainless/ Horn unless i Have Killed a Deer / Elk that year!! My Feeling is If you Claim to Have Made it!! Be Honest and Really Make it Even if you Buy some of the " Base " Material's!! Just My Opinion!!
 
I am also a firm believer in sole authorship.I don't really believe that you should have to worry about a nut,But from bar stock to completed knife and sheath should be yours.If you want to or have the time to learn the art of great engraving then that should be yours also,otherwise just give credit to who did it,as bad engraving is just that and nakes a nice knife look bad...But to buy pr-made parts for a blade like guards and mosaic pins and things like that the maker should be able to do themselves and thus keep sole authorship and be able to say yes I made the knife from scratch by myself except for the fancy embellishments that were better suited to a master in that field.
just my 2 cents worth,
Hope this makes sense.
Bruce
 
Folks,
Your comments are exactly where I am coming from. The reason for making my own tang (acorn) nut is that it is an embellishment of sorts.

"Bought" wood in my opinion is still a raw material. So is barstock. (On the present knife I am working on, I did cut the wood for the handle!) :D

I must agree however, that if it isn't your damascus, then this "sole authorship" facet goes out the window. This would also go along with preformed guards and pommels.

Screws for folders??? That would be like comparing apples and oranges. If I made folders, you're "darn tootin'" I would buy every screw I could find!

As Bruce said, honestly represent whatcha got.

C Wilkins
 
If the barstock damascus isnt made by you than give credit due, but if you are starting with raw unfinished materials and ending up with a knife, you made it. I do believe there are people that take finished blades put a handle on it and call it their own deceiving customers in the process. Its all about ethic's and your own morals. I sell my knives with the thought that they are getting a piece of art, an expression of myself. As long as your honest in what you do, you can't go wrong.
 
Gents: This topic has been very much on my mind as well. I might have missed it, but I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned in-house Heat Treatment as a key ingredient for sole authorship.

Stay Sharp,

RJ
 
Since RJ opened the can of worms (I do heat treat all mt steel). In all the knife magazines "stock removal made blades" seems to be said with a bad taste in your mouth. If you forged it does that give you more "sole authorship"? I've heard of forgers using barstock to forge a blade. Is the tip forge to shape? Do you use hot cutters? I know there is controversy among the ABS concerning this. All the way to the extreme, unless you make your own steel you have to start somewhere. Its all about common sense. But it bothers me that that "stock removal process" is looked down upon. I'm done crying now.
 
I believe that if You put your name on it that you should make every atempt to make the best knife for the intended use. The design of the knife should be your own and all the work except for embellishments when the knife is done should should be done by you. This makes it a real challenge for us that are just starting out but we will eventually with enough dedication and time/practice can make a very nice and high performance knife. If we know our own heat-treat isnt up to par yet we shouldnt sell the knife. We should have Paul Bos or another well known man heat-treat our blades. The customer is going to use this knife and think of us as he is trying to put an edge back on it while the wind chill factor is -10 and the horizontal sleet and ice is forming on his $1200 Browning Automatic Rifle sitting in a snow bank and his fingers are so cold they have lost feeling. His hunting buddy takes out his Paul Bos heat-treaed "Loveless" and finishes the job.

We need to test our blades and be confident in our work or else have professionals do some of it. There is no shame in that but the customer has the final say in its overall quality. I give knives to hunters at times just for the feedback. Anyway just my 2 cents.
 
I'm with Bruce on this with the exception, when using
stainless steel. In the interest of making the best
blade possible I send the blades out for heat treat,
because while I can make it hard it is not the best it
can be so I send it to Mr Paul and say so in my
description of the knife.
As far as people using pre made blades and putting a
handle and calling it a hand made knife or assembling
a Kit knife or using parts made in volume on CNC Tools
then put together and called hand made or custom is far
as I am concerned this is Fraud and should be treated
as such. ETHICS!!! ETHICS!!!
Also there are makers making knives and calling them
Custom when it is obvious that thy are using pre cut
blades and parts and automatic blade grinders, art work
on handles that are made with a jig. You can't make a
hand made knife with all this on it and sell it for
$50 and not lose money, if you are you are working for
nothing, tine = $.
Sorry for the Rant but this has bothered me for a long






time, Gib
time.
Gib
 
I'd say that if there is some major (knifemakingly speaking) endeavour on part of somebody else, such as engravings, or damascus making, or sculpting, it should be given credit.
AND a sole authorship MUST include the design.
If I make a skinner based on Loveless design I feel I can't claim sole authorship.
On the other end, trivial components such as screws,scale slabs and so on can be purchased freely. Yes, I could kill my deer and get the horn and shape it or fall the tree and get the wood and stabilize it myself but I don't think it's really mandatory. They are addedd skills but not strictly related to kinfemaking and anyway it would meen denying social progress up and beyond barter :D
Obviously just assembling pre-made pieces can hardly be described as knifemaking. I prefer 1000 times doing my own blade and screwing it up 100 times than buying a single, perfect blade from somebody else and assembling it in a knife I can't say it's mine.
 
it must be something in the air.

because, to be honest, i was only thinking about sole authorship just yesterday.
it popped into my head while i was looking at a fantastic picture of an art knife.
the damascus had been forged by someone else including the forging to shape,
the heat treating done by another person,
the ivory handle was carved by someone else,
the sheath work by another,
and some engraving by yet another .... and so on.

the only thing that i could really see that the maker took credit for was the grinding of the blade and then the working of the guard. (which had been cast by someone other than the maker too)

now.. i know there is a lot of different opinions out there, but i know of some collaboration blades that have been in fewer hands.

the maker did the right thing though, he fessed up and gave credit where it was due.
but the one thing that got me was the blade won an award.
who should get the award?

indeed, the actual person who is construction the knife is said to be the maker..
but if its ok to let other people do certain tasks on the blade, how long before someone takes that next step and gets someone to profile and grind the blade for them? ..
and get the caster to carve the wax model too?
then who becomes the true maker??

i hope im making sense.

personally, my blades are made with sole authorship forever in the foreground in my mind.
i forge, grind, file, heat treat, embellish and polish my blades personally.
and then if it needs a box, stand, sheath or whatever .. i make that too.

i dont believe that others should suddenly change their ways and do things as i do.
i simply have my way of doing things and so does everyone else.
i like to look at my blades and think that i have made that blade, just me.
but.. i must admit, if i was asked to make something in stainless, i probably would send it to Mr Bos for heat treating.
because, as Mr Guignard has stated, i can make it hard.. but it wouldnt be to a standard that i felt good enough to sell it.

i think that everyone can agree on one thing though;
just be honest as to who has done what on your blade.

just my stray thoughts and delusional rambling.
:D

D.
 
Like many have stated, this too has been on my mind for a long time. I consider myself a bladesmith. I take stock steel and forge to shape using heat and hammer, I also make my own damascus. I make all guards, spacers and pommels from stock material. Sure the handle materials, mostly antler and woods I buy or obtain in block, unshaped form, or at a local antler auction house, then stabilize, drill and shape myself. I do my own heat treating and thats why I don't do stainless. If I ever do, I will obtain a heat treating oven, and take the time to test and learn what is needed to heat treat stainless myself.
I also feel that carving and engraving is totally a different profession. They are not needed to prove the quality and performance of a knife, but add to the beauty of a piece and therefore should be allowed to be done by a person with that talent, just so the person responsible is recognized.
I feel that if you are going to call yourself a knifemaker or bladesmith you should do all these things yourself. I have several friends that make knives and most do as I. This is totally my opinion
but I don't want anything with my name on it to be heat treated by anyone else, no matter how good they are supposed to be. I test my blades and take full responsiblity for their performance and I'm not going to chance someone else messing them up. If thats going to happen it will be because of something I did wrong.
Like I stated, these are my opinions, I don't care if your a metal removal type of knifemaker or a pounder like me, you should produce your own bolsters, guards, butt caps or pommels and heat treat what you make yourself. If you use someone elses damascus, just state who made the damascus in the knife description, don't let everyone think that you have talents you don't have.

Bill
 
I've also seriously tossed this concept up and down. I'm a fairly junior maker but I am determined that what matters in the end is Honesty. How best to represent your integrity is another matter. I use a certificate of Autheticity that is quite specific. I state even who designed the knife - eg.- the name of the customer. I also state if the steel came from eg.- Sheffield O-1 carbon steel or Hitachi 440C, ATS-34 etc. I do state clearly - grinding, forging by ..., heat treating by ... sheath design by ... etc. Therefore there can be little doubt as to the origin of the knife and its evolution.

Another issue is the what RJ Martin and the others have already pointed out - heat treat, a crucial point but a sticking point for many makers, especially the low-on-equipment fellows. I have my own forge and oil bucket for carbon steels but can't do the air hardening steels (yet), so I farm that one out to someone who does a good job.

But isn't that the point? I think that we are all after one thing - making a good knife. Clearly Paul Bos would do a superior heat treat and it would be in my own and my customer's best interests if Paul did the quench, cryo etc. on the blade. Then credit needs to be given where its due. It would be fooling myself and my customer to think I could do a better heat treat.

Sole authorship is a quest. The definition is probably less important than a clear description. Anyone can get adventurous with the definitions.

Cheers.
 
Man, after the last time, I promised myself I'd stay out of this debate the next time it came up. What the heck, it's Thanksgiving and after a day of good food and fellowship, I'm going to break it.

RJ, Bill, I am in total agreement with you about the heat treating issue. I've said it before and I'll say it again...using the argument that sending a blade out for heat treatment because it can be done better is no different that saying...sending out a blade for grinding because it can be done better, or having a bunch of guards CNCd because they can be done better. It just don't wash.

If you grind a lousy blade, practice till it is perfect. If you are lousy at shaping your handles, practice till they are perfect. If you are falling back on the argument that heat treating equipment is expensive, sell your grinder, buy a file, and a heat treating oven, and practice. At least then you'd be doing your own work.

It's not as much that I have an argument with the maker that sends a blade out for heat treating as it is the excuse/reason is because a professional can do it better than the maker. IMHO, that just don't wash. We, as knifemakers ARE professionals. Proper heat treating is the Soul of the Blade.

And let me say that I'm in no way trying to take anything away from the worlds foremost heat treater, Paul Bos. He is a friend of mine and I hope it stays that way.

With all that said, let's please keep this as a debate/discussion and not turn it into a peeing contest.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to you all :)
 
Kit, I think you've identified what we need to be aiming for. You've labelled the reason I spend a great deal of time telling customers that I'd prefer to make them a carbon steel knife because I can do the heat treatment myself and I think I've got that down pretty well myself after heaps of experimenting and learning. (And I think it makes a better usin' knife.) That way, the knife does originate from my own workshop from start to finish, the "soul" as you call it (I like that) is mine, so to speak.

But as much as I'd like to be able to heat treat the air-hardening steels, just haven't gotten that far yet. It's something that is on the cards for the future. Hell, I don't actually like the heat treat specs some of the professional firms give me - they won't always do it to my specifications. I'm almost 100% certain that Paragon oven is on my shopping list for years to come, as is that Nitrogen tank. But till then, what happens ... sending it out is sort of making the best of what we've got.

I agree with you, in short. I also feel that farming out the blade for heat treating does knock off points - its no longer a sole authorship knife and effectively a sort of collaboration. And I don't like that.

The same argument does apply, I think, not only to heat treatment but to sheaths as well. Many makers don't make their own sheaths.

I stand by my opinion that what matters in the end is the honesty. If you machine all the pins and bolt yourself, or smelt your own tamahagane, forge, stock remove, embellish, heat treat etc. yourself, LET THE CUSTOMER KNOW. If you assembled a kit knife, or use Damascus made by your friend down the street, sent out for engraving, LET THE CUSTOMER KNOW. Whether they buy from you is a decision they make depending on whats important to them.

Such is the breadth of debate - excellent.

Cheers.
 
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