Sole authorship...how far do you go?

What Micky said.

Am I going to be condemn because I can`t make
Damascus ( neighors you know) or I don`t have
a $1,000 for a Heat Treat Oven for stainless
so be it.

The way I see it is the #1 thing is,
That Your Customers are Happy with your work.

One more thing as a friend of mine saids
in one of his songs Do The Best With What
You Have an Don`t think to hard cause
it`ll drive you crazy
 
I guess it's just in how you look at it. My customers would be happy even if I sent it to Pakistan for heat treat. I wouldn't, though.

Mickey, Sylvester, are you new guys, part time, or full time makers?
I would ask you not to go ballistic with me asking this question. Just curious.
 
I probably shouldn't jump back in here, because I stated my throughts on what I feel a knifemaker should do if he wants to claim soul authorship. But for some reason things have moved toward high dollar heat treating equipment, and that this is like sending a blade out to a heat treater.
It doesn't matter if your a grinder or a pounder, for soul authorship you should do your own heat treating. You don't need high dollar equipment to make a fantastic blade, I know of several knifemakers and of a few mastersmiths that do all their heat treating with either an acetalene torch, a forge and an electric kitchen oven. Sure a heat treating oven will take away a lot of guess work and it is an necessity if you want to work with some of the stainless steels. But if you take the time to learn how to use the equipment you have, you can produce a blade as good as any available. If you have the money for the $10,000 dollar equipment, thats great, if you don't thats fine too, just learn to use what you have.
To take a piece of steel, shape it into a work of art, and then to heat treat it, to where it performs in ways you never knew a knife could, is a most rewarding part of knifemaking. Take the time to learn, you'll be glad you did.
And another thing, several of you guys have stated "if I get a stainless steel order I will send it out, because I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to heat treat it myself". Why not just tell the person wanting the stainless steel, that you don't do stainless. I was a residential construction foreman for close to 20 years, I wouldn't ask a labor to do finish work, or an electrian to to do plumbing. Its the same prinicpal, do what you have the knowledge and means to do, until you learn the next step.
Guys I don't say any of this to make anyone mad or put anyone down, these are just my opinions and I know they don't mean anything to anyone but me. :D

Bill
 
Bill, that train of thought appeals most to me. My own flyer says that I PREFER to make carbon steel knives. I made my own $150 gas mini forge (all new components) and I have a cake tin of el-cheapo cooking oil. Voila - heat treating equipment. $9 fills up the gas tank at the local gas station, lasts 6months or more since I don't forge. Of course, the kitchen oven is already there in most houses.

But, I had to include the word PREFER because I had so many requests, "Can you make one like that in stainless..." I eventually gave in. I generally do my carbon steel / sole authorship spiel to try to convert the masses.

But what the hey, its an opportunity to 1) make a buck, 2) try something new, 3) check out what those stainless steel aficionados are on about. ? and possibly getting the practise in for when I do eventually get that Paragon oven and nitrogen tank. For those knives, I have to send them to the local heat treaters that specialises in knifemaking steels. I can't label these knives sole authorship.

I guess it would help my own guilt levels if I stuck to my own philosophies ...

Actually, I also like Sylvester's notion - Are your customers happy with your work ?

Cheers. I must try to stop replying all the time ...
 
I've been a full time maker for about 8 years now and it just keeps getting better. I forge probably 98 percent of the blades that leave my shop. Folders being the exception.

After 5 years as part time and 8 years as full time I've probably made 4 knives with stainless blades and only then for good customers and I couldn't talk them out of it. And I did have someone else ht the blades. Other than that I ht my own stuff.

I think the issue of sole authorship, hand made vs. machine made, forged vs. stockremoval and the likes are just material for people to debate about. I will never say that another persons method of production is wrong. But I try to keep an open mind to all methods and learn what ever I can even if the method is totally different from the way I do things.

Do you think Ford ever tells GM that they aren't auto makers because they farm out some of their parts to other companies.
 
Kit, ballistic why you #$%$#$% son of a gun:D
Just Kidding. I have been at it for about 6 yrs
3 fulltime ( but that could change)


Bill, I do all of my heat treating on the carbon
steels an I have been playing with 440c. All I
have is a mini forge. An yes I do turn away stainless
alot. An boy do I hear about it from the wife(exta cash)
I have lost I`m guessin about $3,000 this year because
the customers wanted ats34 or bg42 or something I don`t
work with. I`m like alot of you guys I like to do
everthing in house if I can. Yes when I can I`ll get
an oven an a mill or anything that may help.
Mad hell man you`re not making me mad , I`m new at this
game an have alot to learn.
 
"My customers would be happy even if I sent it to Pakistan for heat treat."

Kit, that would be the kiss of death for a maker without an established name! ;)

------------------

If you are making knives for a living, your customers will have the strongest influence on how you build a knife - and the type of knives you have chosen to make will affect the type of materials your customers expect you to use. You don't see many reproductions of antique Bowies with anodized titanium handles or scores of hi-tech frame-locks with blades hand forged from truck springs.

It's all too easy to formulate your opinions based upon what you like making and how you make it - forgetting that this is a broad market with all kinds of knives being built for all kinds of customers by all kinds of makers.

------------------

I know this is getting off topic, and I apologize. Just trying to even things out by offering an opinion from a stock removal guy who uses materials like BG-42 and S30V, yet has the utmost admiration for those who have chosen the forge, hammer, and anvil! ;)
 
like tom i am a stock removal maker of modern stainless.i design, grind, fit and shape handle. i send my blades to paul bos. since he is the best on the planet. i don't see how this take away from my aurthorship? since i tell my clients this and also if the knife needs a shealh that i have two people i collaborate with. i still designed and ground and handle the blade. the people that i feel violate this are one who farm out the liner lock pieces and ti scales etc, and really just become parts asseembilers. the most important thing is to tell what you made or did'nt and who put it together. :)
 
Rhino: You just made a statement that is exactly what I referred to in an earlier post: "I send my blades to paul bos, since he is the best on the planet"
While Paul Bos is a fine heat treater, I doubt he would claim to be the best on the planet. By making this statement, you have, inadvertently or intentionally, slammed every maker who does not use Paul Bos. And, made an inaccurate statement. Two no-no's as a forum poster.
Again, the heat treat and CNC discussions on this thread were specifically added because those are areas of prime concern in the sole suthorship arena in the knife making community.
Sole authorship is a wonderful thing-a difficult achievement for a maker, and, a positive for many collectors. If you don't do your own heat treat, then tell your customers that. Tell them you send your blades out to a professional heat treater, if that's what you do.
Nothing wrong with that.
No one is slamming anyone who doesn't have a CNC or doesn't heat treat their blades-the point is that these two things-particularly the CNC, can be utilized by a maker as part of sole authorship.
No one expects us to make our own steel, or turn their own screws.
Sole authorship is about controlling your processes to the maximum degree possible, based on the way you make your knives and the equipment you have. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
C.L.
The comments about CNC machines I feel are to clear the air.
There are folks in the industry that feel if you use a cnc machine then you do not author the knife. This is bunk.
As explained above it takes more time and knowledge to make a knife in this manner than it does by using standard mills, grinders, drill press's etc.
If the work is done by maker in their shop then I feel it sole authored.

Just starting out A maker can choose the investment level for equipment themselves.

My quest in this thread is to explain that some makers invest more in their future than others. It seems that some who cannot fund the equipment, and / or will not take the step to learn how to run the equipment have bad feelings toward makers who do.

Just an observation.
 
Man, I truly doubt C.L. Wilkins wanted to start a brush fire with this topic. This was about the idea of "sole authorship" only, not hand-made vs. machine made or CNC vs. hand grinding, etc.

Sole-authorship, in my opinion, simply means making a knife from bar stock to finished product by ones self.

This does not in any way, shape or form imply any critcism of the manner anyone makes a knife!

If a maker used his own CNC machine, programed by himself and then heat treated it himself in his own oven, well he can claim sole authorship.

If a maker forges a knife from barstock, files it to shape and heat treats it himself, well he can claim sole authorship.

The moment someone else performs a significant (i.e. heat treat) operation well in my opinion the knife has become a collaboration.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I don't know of any major makers who use a professional heat treater who don't say "heat treated by so and so" when they bill their knives. If I worked in stainless I'd be sending my blades to a heat treater also. But I wouldn't claim sole authorship. I give the nod to whoever heat treated the blade. However, heat treating is half the fun, so if I wanted to make a bunch of SS knives I would eventually be investing in a decent heat treat oven.
 
Tom,
The Pakistan comment was an attempt at a little humor. :)
It's been established from the last time this discussion happened that generally, customers could care less who heat treated the blade, as long it is done right. This goes beyond that. I'm talking about personal satisfaction and achievement, and continously striving for that next level.

IMHO, some of you guys are missing the points that RJ, Darrel, myself, and others are trying to make.
 
I see most discussion was about heat treat, but I'd like to know your opinion on design.
How much design influences sole authorship?
Obviously copying a classic design poses no problems. The problems arise when we start asking ourselves when a design is considered a "classic".
I mean, when a design by a given maker can be considered "classical" and no more a peculiar design of that maker?
Some disegns from Loveless, for example, are now so much widespread and famous that the can be considered in all aspects as part of the culture of knife. Should a maker copying one of these classic shapes give credit? When a design ceases to be specific of a given designer and becomes a "classic"?
 
Kit: My "kiss of death" comment was an attempt at humor, too! ;)

It seems that, when it comes down to a maker being able to do everything by themselves in their own shop, others can develop "equipment envy."

It's like someone saying "No Fair! You're gonna start making more money than me because you have all this stuff at your disposal." (Like "the equipment fairy" just dropped it all off one night :rolleyes: )

I could also see the possibility that, even though an established maker has the means to buy the equipment, he doesn't - because that would make life more "complicated." Fine - Just don't go around criticizing those who do!

And, don't go around saying "Maker X" can't do as good a job than "Subcontractor Y" in his own shop, with his own equipment. It takes away all meaning to the word "professional".

Just goes to show that assumptions are still more dangerous than facts! ;)
 
Equipment Fairy, I like that.
Tom if you are done with your equipment fairy
please send him by, I could use some of those
nasty machines too:D

Not Fair!! Who in the the hell said life is fair
 
Kit said ".... I'm talking about personal satisfaction and achievement, and continously striving for that next level. "


Right on!!

Bob
 
Another related thread was the one about what one puts on their info or certificate that comes with a knife (if at all).

I am a firm fan of the Certificate of Authenticity or Certificate of Origin. Info I include is :-

A list of materials used - blade, handle, specificiations, sheath.
Blade Designed by ..., Blade ground / forged / finished by ..., Heat treatment by ..., Handle design by ... , Construction by ..., Sheath design by ..., etc.

A sole authorship knife and sheath is when every name on that piece of paper is my name. But occassionally, I attribute a design to "Fowler-style" or the customer's name if they were absolutely central to a particular design.

I must emphasise that even if I am influenced by a particular design eg.- Knives of Alaska caping knife (a damn good design, I add) I make sure it simply follows the general principles. I don't copy or replicate designs. I am also conscious that if a customer asks me to "make a stag-handled whacking cleaver for his butcher's shop," I'M the one who does the drawings, therefore its my own design.

I have not yet agreed to work based on a customer's own drawings. If they present me with a drawing, watch me whip out my own sketch pads and do my own drawing. I've sort of annoyed a couple of customers of that way, but they still liked the end result, and bought the pieces.

Not sure how you guys see this but its my token attempt to ensure that even though I am flexible, I want to maintain controls over what knives come out of my workshop.

Something a little different from the heat treat debate, but perhaps one just as critical to the sole authorship issue.

Cheers.
 
The greater the level of "self" a maker puts into his knives the greater the degree of 'unique guality' (call it face if you like), will be recognised as comming from his hand. Also, the greater the self satisfaction. Most thoughts of knives can be reached through rational thinking, when accpmpanied by knowledge all will be well.

I do not mean to imply that the 'kit' knife is without merrit. We are here because we chose to be, all is voluntary and every achievement in the eyes of the beholder.
 
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