Sole authorship...how far do you go?

Well. I'm doing knives because I like it.
It's a hobby, and it's fun.
So, over being something one should do for sole authorship, having the blade heat treated by sbdy else would just take away all of the fun :)
 
Considering that I have almost $10K of heat treating equipment in my shop, and have worked for years to perfect my cycles, I'm not about to buy the cop out that commercial HT is better. It certainly is less expensive. How many batches of blades could I have heat treated commercially for $10K?
The reason I'm doing it myself is because I'm dedicated to my product.
And, the track record that guys like Kit and myself have established for the performance of our blades certainly proves that in-house HT can provide superior results.
What bothers me is some makers who hide behind commercial HT and then claim that makers like Kit and I can't get the same quality in-house. I used a commercial heat treater for years before I decided I wanted a higher degree of control over my work. It costs more and requires far more time and effort to heat treat in-house than to send blades out. But, the results are there.
As to the comments made about CNC use, my upcoming wegsite update will shed some light on that as well. I'm currently using my own CNC heavily in my shop-again, sole authorship, since I am designing, programming and operating the machine myself. While I agree that is is possible to use CNC technology to make cookie cutter knives that reduce the knifemaker's input almost to mere assembly work, it is also possible to use CNC technology to elevate the quality of the product to levels that would be difficult to obtain without the use of CNC. Again, I'm spending more time making a knife with the CNC than without-but, the quality of the work is far superior, which is what it's all about.
Ultimately, it's the customers who determine the value of sole authorship, by the questions they ask and the buying choices they make. If you don't question a maker on how and why he does things, you're giving him permission to do whatever he wants, without telling you about it.
 
First I don't have 10k to spend on heat treating
equipment and could not justify it if I did. Using a
heat treating company to heat treat my SS blades is
not a cop out, it is the only way I can heat treat my
blades and get a satisfactory result. I am not hiding
behind anything.
As far as using CNC equipment is concerned to build ONE
of a kind knives, that is another thing. Just don't mis
represent the process. Can you say honestly that the
knife is hand made?
My objection to CNC machinery is building the pieces
of knives and then assembling them and then calling them
hand made customs when thy are cookie cutter knives
and selling at a price that I can't compete with, a
ridiculous low price.
Just because I use my hands to put the steel into a
machine so it can do it's thing dose not make it a hand
made knife.
Gib
 
All right.
Let's put it this way, then:
Suppose knifemaker A grinds his knives all by hand, and it takes him 10 hours to get the blade from paper design to ground and finished.
He has developed perfect hand-eye coordination, perfect feel of the blade on the belt, homogeneous movements and all the bells and whistles that come with grinding a knife.

Knifemaker B grinds his knives using a CNC, and it takes him 10 hours to get the blade from paper design to ground and finished.
He has developed superb programming skills, 3d visualization of a 2d project, knowledge of his machine quirks and peculiarities and all the bells and whistles that come in using a CNC. AND he throws away the program after the knife has been made, so that he won't be cookie-stamping, but each knife will be unique, as are the hand-ground ones.

Which of the two is the most skilled craftsman?

We can almost hear a skilled, old flintstone knapper of early copper age saying "hey, that guy who makes the copper knives, he's just to cast it, grind it and he's finished. He's no knifemaker, with those modern devil-made technology! Flint knapping is the way to make decent custom made kinves" :)
 
Kit,
i know what you are saying,
but i am not hiding behind someone else work and saying that that should be the way or that i cant be bothered to learn.

what you are talking about me doing is taking a whole bunch of (mythical) money and invest it on learning all the details and habits of stainless in the way it heat treats .. and then spending a vast amount of money in getting the equipment to do it.

all for 1 .. maybe 2 blades that i will make in my lifetime that will be stainless???
i dont think so.

i dont Like working in stainless.
plain and simple.
i do it when someone comes up to me and whines enough that i listen.
i have made stainless blades in the past and i have, up to now, heat treated them all myself.
but it wasnt an enjoyable thing for me to do.

i only stated my ideas on heat treating in my last post because i have recently had another person come up and ask me about a stainless blade .. to which i pointed them to another maker.
i told them flat out that i dont work in stainless normally and if i were to make it i would have to have someone else heat treat it.

i do believe that the heat treating of a blade is a paramount step and Shouldnt be done by someone else (just my person view) ..
but stainless isnt my medium of choice .. to make me use it is to ask for a blade that doesnt really sit well with me.
like asking a painter to create a single sculpture... you dont expect them to buy a kiln and all the equipment just to fire one sculpture

which is why i have only made a handful of stainless blades .. and another maker has made lots of money off of customers i stumbled across.

D.
 
First off Sorry Kit:rolleyes:
About the hand made issue, the FTC has
already set the ground rules on that.
Anything that is called hand made is just
that, no electric powered machines must
be done with Hand Tools. When we use are
electric grinders then we become a manufacturer.

Now don`t yell at me because I did`nt make the
rules are Fed`s did.
:grumpy:
 
I think a lot of the controversy revolves around subcontacting parts or services versus making them yourself, in your own shop, on your own equipment.

When I see that a maker has invested in the equipment to make knives, that demonstrates that the maker has chosen to maintain a higher level of personal control. So, if a maker uses his or her own heat treat equipment, CNC mill, CNC lathe, EDM, screw machine, or whatever to maintain a high level of quality and creativity, that's great. If it keeps the price of the knife down for the consumer, that's great, too.

Not all of us can afford all of this machinery right now, or have the desire to obtain it, or even have the room to put in in our shops if we could procure it. In most instances, buying a new piece of equipment not only takes the finances, but the time in learning how to use it efficiently.

Many makers choose the path of buying the equipment as they can afford it, learning to use it , and increasing the percentage of "sole authorship" as they grow.

That's not always the case. Some makers prefer to use hand tools for just about everything - and their knives can be as good or even better than those who use lots of machinery. It's just a different way of maintaining authorship. You have to admire it!

I've chosen the former path. Investing in my own equipment and learning to use it has meant building "better" knives - not "cheaper, faster" knives. In fact, I spend more time on building a knife now than I ever have, because I can make and finish more of the parts myself. Because I can do this, I'm enjoying knifemaking more than ever. :)

To me, the term "sole authorship" is a lot like the term "success"..... it's a journey - not a destination.
 
Tom: Well put. And, everyone, please understand that my comments don't apply to part time makers who are making only a few knives per year. Obviously, using a commercial heat treater is the way to go there, particularly if you want to work in the newer, more exotic alloys. I am addressing the full time makers here.
Again, the CNC issue-the CNC in my doesn't produce any parts that don't require the same hand finishing operations as parts made with other methods. Every blade I make is hand ground-no jigs, and, all the contouring work is done by hand. The CNC produces extremely accurate holes and hole patterns, and profiles parts accurately. And, it will do some wild 3D work that I can't figure out how to do any other way.
Guys-there are 1000 ways to make a knife, and, none of them are "wrong". There has to be room for everyone.
This thread is about sole authorship. My point is that, IMO, heat treat is a critical piece of the total package that is sole authorship. If a maker does everything but heat treat, that's fine too, and that's what many makers do-as long as they don't slam makers who do it themselves.
As to CNC use, well, I think that can fit under sole authorship as well.
 
My intent with starting this thread was not to stir up any controversy or start any arguments. The intent was to see just how far folks do go when it comes to this. Far be it for anyone to look down their noses at how someone else makes a knife. We are "just" making knives for cryin' out loud!

What I have found from my own personal experience is that once I started making forged blades, it lent itself more towards sole authorship than when I solely did stock removal. Like many others, if I do have the occasion to do a "stainless" blade, I will send it out for heat treat since I don't have the equipment to do it here and it will represented as such. Sole authorship, at least in my case, would go out the window at that point. Stainless blades are a rare commodity in my shop here lately, but remember, that's just me.

The CNC fray??? I used to work on and repair those beast in a former life. I must disagree with Mr. Martin on one count. They are no more accurate than a high quality milling machine with a good (read expensive) DRO. They do excel at making parts and save time until you have problems with chips or filings then they are very inaccurate. They are nothing more than another tool. There is nothing magical about them. They are no better than the operator or the designer of the part, period. Don't think for a minute that if you get one that you will automatically be making whiz-bang, cool looking folder stuff. It just doesn't work that way.

C Wilkins
 
Mr. Wilkins: Yes, a CNC is no better than the programmer/operator. You hit the nail on the head-a CNC does not make you a knifemaker-that was exactly my point. What it does do is open up new areas of diversity for an experienced maker.
I think this has been a productive thread-with posts that demonstrate genuine opinions and passion. That is what knifemaking is about.
 
Sylvester, I'm not sure I understand your post about the Federal Trade Commission. The handmade vs machine made isn't the issue here. That subject can easily support a thread of it's own. Sole authorship can be accomplished either way.

CL, IMHO, this thread is going fine. We are getting thoughts and opinions from alot of makers and it doesn't seem to be headed downhill.

Any other makers care to add your 2 cents worth on this topic?
 
As for the heat treat.... The blade is the sole of the knife.
I feel that this should be controlled by the maker.
It is a big investment. I would rather know what the end results are and why they are what they are for my customers sake.

I feel there are folks in the knife making industry that have a great fear of things they do not want to invest in. RJ states that he has 10,000.. in heat treating equipment.
How many folks here have that kind of investment in heat treating?
I don't , but most likely 5000-6000 in heat treat alone... all said an done. I want my blades to be what I feel is the best I can do for my customers. The blade is the sole of the knife.

I don't quite understand the term HAND MADE?
This means making something with your hands? This means you would have to make the tools from dirt and available products first then proceed to make the hand made object to me. I feel that somewhere in the knife making terms world this term has become slang for customized steel and handle materials using drill press's grinders, fixtures, sand paper etc.? Even if you forge the steel from bar you are customizing it.
Sole authorship... What company made that bar stock your using?
What about that g10 and ivory you just used. Do the screws and pins you bought count? Did you make that titanium that just went into that knife? How about that nickel silver bolster? What about that rivet you hold the handles on with?
This process is customization. Read the definition of custom.

As for CNC.
CNC is an information in, information out situation. What you do is what you get. CNC also has several more levels of training and experience required to operate than standard knife making equipment. For just 2D machining CNC can be overwhelming. 3D CNC machining is another step higher yet.
A CNC machine can be an asset or a large liability for the person who owns it. Its up to them.
It takes many years of tooling applications experience, machining technique, and programming experience to fully understand and run a CNC machine itself. Can you create a better product? Only if you can turn your artistry into lines of CNC g code (the language that the CNC machine uses to produce the part).
AS for cookie cutter knives... this is funny. There are many knifemakers making knives with pantograph machines. Why are these not cookie cutter knives? Do you use a template to make your knives in your shop?
A CNC machine can make one of a kind creations as well as many of the same thing. The parts are NEVER finished enough that finish work by hand is not required. Processes that were only dreams in the knife making industry have come to fruition with CNC machines. Horizons have been widened with CNC machines. The level of precision has been improved 10 fold with CNC machines. CAD and CNC have changed the face of knifemaking in general. Designs today are far superior to those of a few year back. Do your customers deserve the highest quality and best designed knives? I feel mine do.

So lets run this down again.
To run a CNC machine on some of your knife parts....
You have to have the ability to make a knife by hand with shop tools or some kind of tools. The ability to understand the mechanics and process's involved in making a knife is essential.
Then take what you have learned from the step above and apply it to a CNC machine. This will require that you buy a machine, learn to program and operate the machine , learn feeds and speeds for cutting tools (no more guessing), fixturing etc., learn tooling applications.
This list goes on..
Each of these steps has a long learning curve.
Creation is the next step. Can you create (using a cad drawing program or other means), and convert your ideas to the way a CNC machine works?
CNC sounds like more work and education for those who use it.


CNC machines used in knife making boils down to a few simple things in my opinion.
The time to educate yourself, and put up the cash to invest in your future and quality of your products.
How much faith do you have in your work? How much will you invest?
Does fear stop you from taking such an involved step? DO you feel your knives are already the best they can be?

When the automobile was created folks said: "That contraption is the work of the devil". Folks said that the world would never be without the horse and buggy.
What do you drive? Progress is a never ending process. Progress always wins in the end. History proves this over and over.

I feel we have enough governing bodies in our lives at this time.
I got into knifemaking so that I could make my own decisions.
I do not relish the fact that some feel they want to tell me how to, and what to do. Terms are just WORDS and EXCUSES that people use as labels to set themselves aside from others. If you make a good knife people will buy them . I feel this is what it boils down to.
Do what you think is right.
Live and let live.
 
Kit the reason I put that in was because in
a couple post it was mention that if using
a mill can you call it hand made. I know
that it realy didn`t belong. Sorry for the
confusion Kit.

Darrel, I agree with you.

The bottom line is the way I see it is doing
the best job you can in what ever way you
choose.
:grumpy:
 
As a sidebar, I hope that some of the newer makers that are just entering this craft don't read this thread thinking that to be successful you HAVE to do any of what had been stated such as CNC or doing your own HT. This thread is about sole authorship. For the newer folks, it must be explained that many of the contributors to this thread are full time makers and their "sole source of income" is from knifemaking and are doing this "for a living". They have worked many years to get where they are today and have built their business up over the years. In running any business there are business expenses. Over the years we all accumulate equipment. My crowded shop (aka garage) can attest to that. When we all start out we have trouble justifying perhaps a drill press or a small benchtop grinder. After all, it is just a hobby...when we first start out.

---

Some very good points are made concerning this that never even crossed my mind. One is the point made concerning heat treat. To some, I suppose it could be argued that sending blades out for heat treat would be, or is no different, than sending parts out to a job shop. That is a very good point to ponder since HT is such an integral part of the knife.

This may appear to be apples and oranges. Neither example above would be sole authorship however I don't believe the second example concerning sending parts out is even custom knifemaking. If a maker does that, you might as well buy a Benchmade or Spyderco since you would be getting a production knife anyway. Thats a different argument.

As mentioned in a previous post, I stated that the forged blades I do lend themselves more towards sole authorship than when I primarily did stock removal. Why is that? HT for one. More experience now is another. I can contribute that to the ABS and the courses they offer, along with a good friend of mine that has also brought me along (sometimes kicking and screaming). The ABS is about the only place that will actually teach classes on knifemaking. It and this website with a few others, are just about the only source of "education" when it comes to some facets of knifemaking. We need more. If that were the case, we would see more folks doing a lot of what is being discussed in this thread.

C Wilkins
 
I'd hope other new makers, including myself, look at sole authorship as a goal, rather than this being something to make them feel bad. I'm perfectly happy to admit that if I do anything stainless now that it's gonna go to Paul Bos, and that I have a friend who does my Kydex sheathes for me. There are various reasons for this(money, time and fact I live in an apartment), but I agree with what others have said and I make it VERY clear what parts I did myself and what parts someone else did the work on. I still do stock removal, not forging, but I cut my pin stock to length myself, shape my wood, profile and grind my steel, profile and grind any guards, and heat treat my own carbon steels. Many of these things I don't yet do as well as say Kit or Bruce or any of you other fine makers, but rather than feeling bad about that, just like the sole authorship issue, I just feel it as kinda a kick in the pants to keep practicing and keep trying to make my work better. I"ll never have complete sole authorship as I don't ever expect to smelt my own steal. But I will keep moving more and more things in house as I can, and I think that's all that should really be expected of starting knivemakers.

I do agree that maybe a full time maker should be held to higher standards as to sole authorship, but even there I can't really say for sure, because I'm not in that position, so I'm well aware there are factors there I don't know about.

But anyways, that's my .02 onthe subject.
 
I 've been enjoying reading this thread – and I think all the contributors, considering how controversial it is have handled it extremely well. Without meaning to so sound patronizing, I can't find a view point that is not valid as it is clear that every maker who has chimed in, from part time to super-serious full time - is equally dedicated to his craft. As a new maker, however, I get concerned that those who are just starting will look upon this as an equipment race. I hope the new people like me do not feel that they have to run out and buy every piece of equipment that the pros use to be proud of their authorship. Certainly Tom, R.J, Darryl and others have made this clear.

For one to call one's self a craftsman, regardless of what you make, requires a keen interest in the material, the possibilities in form and function, a respect for others achievements and a desire to break through old boundaries. For me, being able to call myself is craftsman would be first on foremost on my list – sole authorship is, I think, an issue that has it's place the craftsman's peers.

I've been accused of being an obsessive – compulsive perfectionist for all the years I have been crafting things. Thirty some-odd years ago I explored my first craft a full-time potter. I made most of my equipment. I designed and built my own kilns. In disgust, I threw out the old combustion engineers work and designed and cast my own burners. I did a chemical analysis of all the materials I used. The payoff was that I eventually developed an intuitive feel for what I was doing and eventually (after years) the testing, oversight, calculations and charts, etc. were no longer necessary. One person in this thread once told me he no longer uses his Rockwell tester (you know who you are!). and I believe I know where you are coming from – the reward for all the time and understanding of materials, equipment and process is that you become a master of your craft. I think this is most important thing and sole authorship is but another way of defining some, but not all of the achievements that make one a true craftsman.

I started making knives this year. I draw filed my first three blades as the $65.00 1"x 30" grinder I was using was showing its limitations. I now have better equipment, but not heat treat or CNC. My production, and my ability to make the best use of more equipment does not justify their purchase at this time – but I must say that having been through the cycle before I can't help thinking about the possibilities that new equipment offers. However, I know I have to be patient and concentrate on the learning process – and those purchases will come as I can justify them/need them/ or set off to explore some new area of knowledge and possibility.

A good thread guys, keep it coming.

Bob

http://www.southrivermodelworks.com/
http://home.attbi.com/~southriv/
 
For those of you who are getting concerned that we are getting into a piss-fighting competition here. Rest assured, this is probably THE debate in knifemaking. This is a related topic to others such as definitions such as handmade, custom, etc.

Very relevant. Just to take a sideways walk. WE MUST have debate like this. 10 makers, 10 opinions, 100 makers, 100 opinions. We need them all. I am quite happy dealing with conflict for the betterment of the craft.

Keep it coming, guys. Cheers.
 
First off, let me backtrack a little. The intent of my post was aimed at the full time makers. I had no intent of slamming the new guys or part time makers. I spent 20 years in your position and I know what it's like and had no extra money for heat treating equipment, but it gave me a direction and a desire. I apologize to you guys for not making that clear in my post. To the full time professionals, my post stands.

It's funny, but 10-15 years ago when I read the term Sole Authorship, the only thing that came to my mind was the guy made the knife and if it had engraving or schrimshaw, he did that also. Times are a changing:)

Jason, I agree. This whole thread has impressed me with the degree of control and the wealth of information being presented.

Great posts by all. This thread is definitely going to get printed and put into my files.
 
What difference does it make? If another maker has a shop full of equipement and can afford it....well good. It dosen't make my knives any better or worse than they are...I control that. I do all my own work, all of it including sweeping the floor. But if I had an order for stainless you can bet someone else would heat treat it, I'm just not equiped to do it.

If another maker buys blades and hires someone else to put the handles on I don't care. It will catch up with him sooner or later and I just don't care. It's not going to affect the way I work or the way I do things.

I don't have a shop full of expensive equipement but that dosen't mean I wouldn't like to have it. And I think it's great that some people do and have the knowledge to use it. Most of these people have payed their dues by doing it the hard way.

If it will make a better knife go for it. Hell I'd drink out of the slack tub if I thought it would help me make better knives.

I think we spend too much time worring about the Jones and who's doing their work and not paying enough attention to our own work.

Enough said
 
Another way to look at it. As Micky said, I'll do it my way. Wasn't that a Sinatra song ?

I know a local knifemaker who is definitely part-time, but has the most "complete" workshop that I have ever seen. There are machines I've never even heard of, and he's got multiples of them ! Everything rolls around on castors because there's no space for anything. But his rate of "production" is SLOW and infrequent. Nonetheless the quality and his fit and finish is amazing.

In terms of hobby vs. part-time vs. full-time (= having to earn a living from it), consider that nearly all knifemakers got into it initially because they were :- 1) interested, and / or 2) good at it, and / or 3) got immense pleasure out of it. I wonder if selling a knife is a completely different issue and that when the guy realised that, "Hang on, I could actually make a buck out of this." I think thats where the pressure of deciding on a specific approach (in order to meet various deadlines) then starts fo creep in.

I started in knifemaking not long ago - just dabbling, purely hobby. Had no equipment - so bought the basics - file, hand drill etc. Got the blades from kits. I only got into , wait for it - SOLE AUTHORSHIP KNIVES ! exactly 12months ago and haven't looked back. Back before then, I had no interest in what sole authorship was or if anyone else cared. Now its a burning issue. I want to know what it means, I think my customers also want to know too. I have now accumulated more equipment, most of it very basic but it gets the job done. For most people intending to have a long career in knifemaking - let it take its natural course. Provided you do the necessary hard work, you WILL get those machines you wanted eventually; don't fuss about it now, it'll happen ! Just remember that machines don't make your knives any better, you're still the operator.

Personally, my idea of sole authorship is that I purchase some basic materials - steel bar, selection of a handle material, leather and I perform all the work with no direct or physical assistance from anyone else, until the knife and sheath are completed. I grind, embellish, heat treat (carbon steels)finish, assemble, shape, carve and affix handles and then construct, wet-mould and hand-stitch a sheath. I call that a sole authorship knife (and sheath).

I would still give credit to the person(s) who designed the blade / sheath style if not by myself. The only things I didn't do was to go as far as smelting the steel, grow the tree and feed the cow.

But hang on, there are those who WOULD do that. Can't remember the name of a newer maker / bladesmith who made a ? Journeyman smith knife and used a very nice timber from the tree he cut down in his own yard. That's sole authorship, taken to a new level ! And to people like him, power to you !

Forgive my ramblings.

Cheers.
 
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