Sole Authorship & the Guild

Joined
Mar 10, 2001
Messages
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I would like to quote from the Guild By-Laws

Article III
Section 6: "At every meeting each voting member shall be entitled to cast one vote. A membership held in the name of a company where two or more knifemakers constitue a company shall have one vote and any ot these knifemakers may represent the company."

seems clear enough to me that the guild has never had a position on sole authorship.

A. G. Russell
 
Hmm, well then, maybe it should ;)

The thread 'Les, please clear this up' certainly shows that knifemakers have different opinions on this issue. As long as the customer knows what he wants, and the maker is honest about how his knives are made, then I think any method of production is good.

But as a collector, I place a premium value on 'sole-authorship'. I realize those words are at the top of another slippery slope just like the word 'custom'. I don't object to laser cutting blanks, or using CNC technology, or sending blades out for heat-treatment. But I expect a 'handmade' or 'custom' maker to:

1. forge and or grind the blade from bar stock
2. shape, finish, fit, and assemble all components himself.
3. Create unique designs that are not direct copies of other makers work

At least the members of the ABS still know what 'sole-authorship' means to some of us Customers. :)

Paracelsus
 
No offense A.G., but I really don't think the Guild had in mind using helpers when these rules were set. They in my estimation are talking about 2 or more KNIFEMAKERS(as in collaboration, etc.), not shop help.

No one (or very few people) really care if a maker buys his screws, gets his knives heat treated by a pro, has a helper profile blades, etc.

The whole thing boils down to one EASY task, and that is that a maker should be honest, PERIOD.
 
Originally posted by Jailhack
No offense A.G., but I really don't think the Guild had in mind using helpers when these rules were set. They in my estimation are talking about 2 or more KNIFEMAKERS(as in collaboration, etc.), not shop help.

No one (or very few people) really care if a maker buys his screws, gets his knives heat treated by a pro, has a helper profile blades, etc.

The whole thing boils down to one EASY task, and that is that a maker should be honest, PERIOD.

Jailhack: You are probably right but I have known only a handful of makers who would not put a high-school kid to work sweeping the shop and band-sawing out the blades if he had enough work to keep them busy. In many cases this works into an apprentice situation, many of todays makers started this way. This is how S. R. Johnson started (in the Hibben shop)

Your last paragraph is right on. And of course so should the customer. A. G.
 
Originally posted by Paracelsus
Hmm, well then, maybe it should ;)

The thread 'Les, please clear this up' certainly shows that knifemakers have different opinions on this issue. As long as the customer knows what he wants, and the maker is honest about how his knives are made, then I think any method of production is good.

But as a collector, I place a premium value on 'sole-authorship'. I realize those words are at the top of another slippery slope just like the word 'custom'. I don't object to laser cutting blanks, or using CNC technology, or sending blades out for heat-treatment. But I expect a 'handmade' or 'custom' maker to:

1. forge and or grind the blade from bar stock
2. shape, finish, fit, and assemble all components himself.
3. Create unique designs that are not direct copies of other makers work

At least the members of the ABS still know what 'sole-authorship' means to some of us Customers. :)

Paracelsus

I understand what you want, your rules 1, 2, 3 are quite clear, but I do not understand just what CNC work you would permit on a knife you wanted to buy. It cannot be grinding the blade or shapping the handle, what is left. I intend no disrespect, I just want to know what other use there is for CNC technology.

A. G.
 
I for one still do everything myself, even that damned bandsawing! For years I had Paul Bos heat treat my blades but this year I bought an oven and do most myself now also. I do all my own engraving and carving except for the few knives I make with Wolfgang Loerchner. I use Damasteel and Mike Norris stainless damascus. Barry Gallagher, Robert Eggerling, and a few pieces from John W. Smith carbon damascus for bolsters. I use Mostly ats34 for my blades and 416 and stainless damascus for some frames. I use 17-4ph stainless for liner-lock springs and auto leaf springs. I have 3 belt grinders, 1 drill press, 1 small jet milling maching, 1 harig surface grinder tons of drill bits and reamers belts and bar steel and lots of files. I even hand sign each blade and dont use a stencil, this would be like Rembrandt using a rubber stamp on his paintings.The damn bugs in my shop dont even help out! nor do my 3 cats. Maybe this is why I am so slow in my old age:p
 
Maybe we should set up a code or class system for knifemakers. Ok, if you're the only one that works on the knife, including heat treat, cutting all the parts out and even making your own screws you'd be an A#1. If you do everything I mentioned cept you buy the screws, you're an A#2. If you make it all youreself and use pins instead of screws, you're an A#1B. If you buy laser or edm cut blade blanks and do everything else yourself, including making or buying screws or pins you're an A#3. I would be an A#2 most of the time but sometimes I'd be an A#3 and other times an A#2b and when I get myself a real popular folder pattern of my own I'll be an A#2XB007. Always did wanna be a double naught spy!
If you..... ah forget it! Life is too complicated already. Just buy whatcha like and be happy!
 
Lmaoooooo Tim!!!!!! Sounds like you need to hire some new bugs and cats!
 
It really seems that most makers both here on the forums and out in the "real" world are pretty much in agreement with the fact that the main issue is that you must be honest with your customers. What you do or don't do in your shop is of less importance to me than the honesty involved in saying what you do or don't do.

This whole issue started I believe due to a few makers being less than honest and then being caught in a lie of sorts.(and no, this didn't start here on these forums). Ever hear the saying "It only takes one rotten apple to spoil the bunch". That is to me what has happened and I think it can be turned into a positive learning experience for everyone.

Would you want to deal with a less than honest maker? It's really that simple.

Oh, and Tim,
It's no wonder that you have no help in your shop, who would want to put up with your grumpy old ass in the first place? :D
 
Sorry AG, I can see how my comment about CNC could be misunderstood. I think knifemakers in the Guild should gain membership by producing knives following the three guidlines I set forth above, and I think most (all?) do. I can not think of any good reasons why laser cutting of blade profiles and small parts to create blanks for hand finishing should not be allowed. And I don't think the maker sould have to indicate that when selling his work unless directly asked.

But CNC should not be used to grind blades on Knifemakers Guild member's knives unless clearly indicated. Even if the maker is programming the machine himself, and owns his own mill, such a knife could not really be considered handmade. The machine would remove the small variations that make handmade knives each unique, even if produced from the same pattern.

I was under the impression that bolster and some handle materials can be CNC shaped as well as blades. I personally am probably not a customer for knives made using CNC technology, not because I think it makes an inferior knife, but because I collect handmade knives because I like handmade art.

Laser cutting blade blanks and other parts does not bother me as long as the final shaping, fit, and finish is perfomed by the maker. CNC is not something I want on My knives. But I don't want to ban its use for other folks knives either.

I just think that makers having a significant amount of work done by other peoples hands (except perhaps for heat-treatment), or doing a lot of shaping with computer controlled machines, MUST be forthcoming about this. Not just when asked, but proactively.

I am not talking about having an apprentice, or even a paid helper assist with shop operations. But the Maker should do all of the work I mentioned above himself, particularly hand-grinding all his own blades. If this work is performed by someone else, the maker should indicate that fact, and should perhaps use another mark distinct from his own handmade knives.

I know a maker who is having his blades ground by someone else. They are still very well made knives and are sold at a fair price. And the maker is even forthcoming about how (who) really makes the knives when asked. But it is impossible to distinguish between this Guild members own handmade knives, and those his hired help produced. That is not fair in my book.

CNC technology can be used to create great knives at a considerable labor saving to the maker. But if such knives are then sold to customers by Guild members to customers who think they are buying the work of that makers hands, then a sort of tacit fraud is committed.

I know some makers who are forthright about the methods they use. They make some knives completely by hand, and make other knives with laser cut parts, and may even use CNC to make blades for other knives. And they tell the customer about it. The maker saves time, the customer gets a good knife for what should be a better price than a handmade version would cost.

But Guild members should be required to make some sort of distinction between these differently constructed knives. If you employ folks to grind, assemble, or finish knives, or you use a computer controlled mill, you must point that out to your customers, because these knives are no longer 'handmade', or 'custom' or 'sole-authored'. And even if the Guild has no guidlines for this stuff, it should. Otherwise, a makers membership in the Knifemakers Guild is devoid of any meaning for me as a customer of handmade art.

Paracelsus
 
Para,
Why "except for heat treatment" ? Heat treatment is the sole of the blade. Until it is done, it ain't a knife. "I made all the parts, but (insert name of heat treater) actually made the knife".
IMHO.
 
Hey KIT, if I did the heat treat on one of your blades, would that be a collaboration or would you just be a big fat liar? (if you didn't tell nobody)
 
As I read these 2 related threads it leaves me greatly disappointed.I look at a some of the customs in my case with the name Fisk, Flournoy, Zowada, Hossom, McBurnette stamped on them, each one was bought by me from the maker.It was and is important to me that they made the knife themselves. These men were all proud of THEIR work and took the time to talk about them, Im proud to own them.

I think many makers are now simply designers, and thats fine, perhaps their stamp should read designed by--------- rather than made by-------.
I think its great that their shop is open for others to come and learn, however an apprentice should practice on scrap steel and build knives at his own expense until his craft is learned. If Im paying big bucks for a knife by Kit Carson or Jerry Hossom or any other big name maker I expect the knife to be made by him.

I have been a knife freak since the early 80s and this thread has been a real kick in the butt to me, especialy the post by A.G. I thought he would be a sole authorship guy.
 
Max,
Probably a collaboration, but, why would I let yo do it? I have the professional technology to do it myself:) I ain't a rocket scientist, I'm just a knifemaker......
 
Kit, as you know, I am primarily a forged blade collector, and All of my knives have heat-treatments performed by the maker. But in the case of stainless steels, so many good knifemakers send ground blades out to Paul Bos or others for heat-treatment that it hardly seems worrying about.

For my money, I want the maker to do his own heat-treatments. I agree that is the 'soul' of the blade. And I am mostly a collector of the makers of the American Bladesmith Society, who almost Always do their own heat-treatments (cryogenics excepted).

I would PREFER that the maker do his own heat treatments. But I do not think it needs to be a REQUIREMENT for Knifemakers Guild membership. Or maybe I am saying that is not something I feel terribly strongly about if I am buying the work of a KG member since the KG does not seem to take any strong position on this, like many other aspects of knife creation.

If an ABS member told me he was not doing his own heat-treatments, I would run away and not throw any money his way. So far, all of my knives have had all work done by the maker except for laser cutting of blade and bolsters in one knife made by one ABS Mastersmith. He told me about it, and why it cost Less both for me and for him, and I was satisfied.

So I guess I expect sole-authored heat-treatments from ABS members, but not necessarily for KG members. I expect LESS from the Knifemakers Guild. It's Sad, but true...

Para
 
Rick,
I'm sorry if the truth hurts.
For me, it's just a point. I do all my own heat treating.
I could say, I leave the heat treating to professionals, but I could also say, I can't grind a blade worth a damn, so I leave it to a professional. I don't. I hand grind every blade and handle I do. I also heat treat and Rockwell test every blade I do. I could also say, I let (Acme Tool and Machine, a bogus company, btw) do my handle shaping and grinding. They are professionals, so they do it better than me. I don't. I do it all myself. You, the customer has to decide what you are willing to pay your hard earned $$ for.
This issue is a tough one to discuss, but it has to be talked about, IMHO.
I'm getting alot of emails from those who think this issue shouldn't be talked about. I can handle the heat and will continue to post on this subject..
 
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