Sole Authorship & the Guild

Kit,

Well said. I own one of your large model 4 folders - I am likely to buy more after reading this thread and the related one.

Regards,

Ed
 
Well, this is a different thread so I guess I can still say something.

Mr. rick melear, if you bought one of my knives thinking I heat treated it, then I will buy it back from you for what you paid plus interest. I do not heat treat my blades. As I have said ad nauseum, Paul Bos does my heat treating, because he is the ONLY one I trust to do it.

Now, to make this as clear as I can, I would not send my blades to anyone on these forums who does their own heat treating to have them do mine. I don't believe anyone does it as well as Paul, including me, and I did it as well as I thought it could be done. In the choice between the "I did it all" ego statement and the best possible knife I can deliver to my customer, I choose the latter.
 
Jerry,

No way guy. If anyone wants to toss one of yours they can send it my way.

I am looking for quality. When I buy a suit from somebody I use them because I know I am going to get exactly what I asked for. I don't care how they produce the thing as long as it is on spec, on time, and on budget. And, yes, when I find someone who can pull it off consistently then I feel they are worth the investment.

Imperfections are just that. I would rather have a perfectly done unique knife build by a squad then an imperfect approximation built by one.

N2S
 
I own both Carson & Hossom knives. All are Quality knives and I use all. The end result is I have Quality, well made blades that I have faith in to do what I need.Is this not what counts?
'nuff said.
 
Hey Kit,

I am the proud owner of one of your F4 neck knives and from what you have said, I see that you -

Did the heat treat

Checked the RC

Ground the blade

Finished the handle

From what you said and what I took to be a PR release I understand that you did not -

Cut the blanks for the blade

The same for the handle

Make the sheath

If these statements are true, I think that I can tell people that I have a knife made by Kit Carson. Am I wrong?

Sometimes words get in the way...


Steve-O

In any case, I love this little knife
 
When you're a newbie to a craft sometimes it's best to stay out of highly political discussions. But I'm compelled to agree with Kit on this one. If you make blades you should be able to heat treat them as well.

I can understand not doing your own blades made of fancy stainless steels that require highly specialized equipment to achieve an optimal quality. In that case, it makes sense to let Mr. Bos do that aspect of the work since he has the expertise and expensive equipment. However, if you make knives with steels that could easily be heat treated yourself with simple equipment, then you should do so. It's like a potter who doesn't fire his own pots. You gotta learn to do that one crucial step.

I'm about to attempt to heat treat 440C myself in a potters raku kiln using a pyrometer. I don't have the nitrogen for a cryo quench but it is not necessary for this knife anyway.
 
I expect to pay for the work that goes into my knives. I pay differing levels for differing levels of expertise and involvement. If a maker performs every function in the knife's creation, down to turning his own screws and the heat treat, I expect to pay a top dollar "wage" to the artist/craftsman. I also expect to wait longer - I don't want him working when he's drowsy, or pissed off, so I expect to wait for him to be in a good mood to go power on his grinders or whatever. If shop help is used, I know that the work is probably expert, and supervised, but I expect to pay less for the final product because the hands that performed the operations are "cheaper" than the maker himself, and I expect it to be finished quicker. If mass production becomes involved, there is a savings to the maker, and I expect to see some of that savings reflected in my final cost/lead time.

As regards "professional" services, again, I expect to pay a different amount for those services. If the man doing the heat treat is an expert in the field, I know I'm getting quality, and will probably pay a little more for it. If the maker is using a production heat treating company, again, I know I'm getting quality, but I expect to pay a little less for it because of the production savings.

Hopefully my ramblings are coherent enough that you all can see that I don't hold anything against any production methodology, I just want to know which ones were involved upfront, and that I will be getting quality worksmanship - no detective work required. If I decide to pay the extra dollar for hand turned screws and a "professional" heat treat with quintuple cryo and quenchings in friggin truffle oil, then that's up to me.

I think that if makers are clear about their sources and methods, then the definition of "sole authorship" and "production" will become pretty clear. Companies call foods "all natural", but they still have ingredient lists a page long. As long as that label is there, we can evaluate what each product calls itself on our own terms, and based upon that product's merits.

With this much confusion, I believe that makers owe it to themselves and their customers to provide a detailed exposition of any "outside" work done or major parts sourced. And while we use the common terms "custom" and "handmade" in discussion, I think that any maker who is not using the terms completely literally in the description of their products will open themselves up to rehashing this discussion repeatedly in the future with newcomers to the craft. They are better off just detailing their methods and leaving the "definitions" for the eyes of the beholders.
 
With all due respect to those fine makers who send their work out for heat treating; the soul has been infused by another.



If the heat treating is done by someone else the knife should be sold as a collaboration as mentioned by Kit.


ghostdog
 
Thanks Brian very well put. Brian has nailed this subject to the wall as far as my thoughts and concerns.

There really is not anything more enjoyable in the hobby for me than to develop a relationship with a maker talk about a knife, have patience and let them loose. On those types of knives that I order I enjoy hearing what is going on and how things are being done. The art knives that I collect in this category are not going to see any if they are used at all, but I know that the person making them will be making a knife. I enjoy owning them and I enjoy the knowledge that one person made the knife and like Brian, I want them to have fun while they are working on it I do not get in a hurry (that is not to say I do not get excited) to have the knife in my hands. As Brian said I expect to pay for more than the knife when I order a knife like that.

Like Para I am very partial to forged blades especially when it comes to those type of knives I talked about above. At the same time there are folks out there like Kit David Broadwell and Jerry just to name a few that do not forge, but whose knives are nothing short of desirable for me and a lot of other collectors. I guess for me a well made knife by some one whose reputation I trust is what I like.

Excellence and honesty do prevail in the custom knife world. That is a hard, cold fact that others have pointed out. It seems that lately the tone of the discussions here do not reflect that fact and sometimes I feel that some of the limited exposure that a few of us have had or a lack of exposure all together can be a major cause of some of the problems that have been pointed out.

We need to recognize that no matter what type of knife we are talking about, knife making is an art and we are not going to be able to scientifically categorize the work that is a result of that art in wide brush strokes.
 
I don't get into this forum much, but it's only because of my lack of time. I do get in & read as much as possible & have learned a great deal from all of yall's discussions. I'm going into the Knifemakers Guild this year as probationary member & am excited, I love making knives and am always trying to make them better & better. I know I have a long way to go to get as good as most of you guys but will not stop trying to get better each time I build a knife. The first ten liner locks I made, I had the liners Laser cut out by Larry Chew, In fact he took a picture of one of my lockbacks & converted it into a liner lock on cad & cut me the pieces. He cut blades as well but I havn't used them because of deciding to do something different. I've also had Larry Davidson profile me out a few blades, springs & liners for some slip joints in the past but as I go on I'm deciding myself, & this is my own heart, that I want to build them completely by myself all the time. I don't lie to anyone that asks me about any of my knives, & try to be proactive like some one said in a earlier post. Most of the people that stop by my table always ask if I made every piece & thats my chance to tell them. I currently havn't mastered my lathe to the point where I can turn my own screws but other than the screws, all the work is mine. I was hoping to get my daughter out there to do some surfacing on some blades but that didn't last till the water got hot, or it got to hot out in the shop:p Anyway, thanks for all of your post, & even though I don't post much doesn't mean I'm not read'en I just don't want to show too much of my ignorance:rolleyes: I'll go now but hope to get to visit with some of you at the Show in Florida, Dwayne Dushane
 
Originally posted by ghostdog
With all due respect to those fine makers who send their work out for heat treating; the soul has been infused by another.



If the heat treating is done by someone else the knife should be sold as a collaboration as mentioned by Kit.


ghostdog
Click to expand...

Does that mean I can call my knives a Simonich collaboration? Hmmm, maybe that would allow me to increase prices. :)
In all seriousness, I understand Kit's original statement, and agree with him to a great extent. Even so, I see no harm in sending blades to a pro if one chooses. To me, being honest about their methods is the most important factor. Either way, I think that a maker should understand the process.
So, why am I not HTing my own blades? Well, a makers' skill and shop are not built overnight. I do plan on acquiring the equipment and doing my own HTing in the future, as I am financially able. In the meantime, I will continue to study the HTing process.

Brett
 
After reading all of the above posts I don't know who is right and who is wrong. The only thing I agree with is to tell the customer the truth? BUT what if he assumes that you cut out the blank yourself and doesn't ask. If I don't disclose this fact without his asking is it wrong or distrustfull of me.
I have in the past 3 years had a few blanks cut out by another company when I got behind. For the last 3 years I have been doing every thing else including HT, design, grinding, drilling, pollishing, and making sheaths.
I have no computorized equipment or shop helper and every step is hand held or hand opperated by me and me alone. I would be really upset if the knife comunity was to say that the few blades that a comercial welder cut for me with his plasma arc made those blades different than all the others I have made that I consider handmade by myself.
 
I don't think either viewpoint is right or wrong per se. I think the distinctions made in this thread have been excellent. A knife bought as a collectable and so priced and valued does depend on exactly by whom and how the knife was made. Makes perfect sense to me. Also makes sense that for those of us (like me) who buy well-made knives to actually use them, what matters is not that the maker whose name appears on the blade actually made the whole knife by hand or that he employed helpers to make parts or do the finishing work so long as the final result is, from a QC viewpoint, up to the same quality the knife maker himself would hold himself to <i>if</i> he made the knife all by himself.

I have great users from Bob Dozier and Newt Livesay (to take two examples). I don't believe for a minute that either Bob or Newt personally made these knives, or even any part of them (though they may well have, I just don't know). What is important to me is that when they left their respective shops, the knives were as good as though they were made by those two master knife makers. On the otherhand, if I were paying premium dollar to get a knife actually made personally by Newt or Bob, that would be a different story. So I do well see both sides, and the guild might as well learn to adapt to the distinction.
 
Originally posted by matthew rapaport

I have great users from Bob Dozier and Newt Livesay (to take two examples). I don't believe for a minute that either Bob or Newt personally made these knives, or even any part of them (though they may well have, I just don't know). What is important to me is that when they left their respective shops, the knives were as good as though they were made by those two master knife makers. On the otherhand, if I were paying premium dollar to get a knife actually made personally by Newt or Bob, that would be a different story. So I do well see both sides, and the guild might as well learn to adapt to the distinction.

Huh??? I don't get it. Excuse me while I reread this post a few more times.

Adapting to such a distinction will be THE END of the Knifemakers' Guild.

If knives from these two fine gentlemen have their name on the blades, they had better be made by them.

Al P.
Click to expand...
 
Adapting to such a distinction will be THE END of the Knifemakers' Guild.

If knives from these two fine gentlemen have their name on the blades, they had better be made by them.
Click to expand...

What do you mean Al? Are we back to the "who made the screws issue?" To my understanding, both of those shops have other people working in them (apprentices?) who might make parts, most, or all of some of the knives containing their names. I do hope that these apprentices are supervised by the masters and that, as I said, the end results are equal to the master's standard. For a <i>user knife</i> (and priced appropriately), that is all I expect or care about. For me a $150 Newt Livesay knife means that Newt <i>designed</i> it, Newt <i>supervised</i> its production, and Newt <i>certified</i> the quality of the end result. If Newt were making $5000 art knives, that would be a different story, and that is why the distinction is important. Why shouldn't the Knifemaker's Guild incorporate that distinction?
 
Where is the border between "art" and "craftsmanship?" It is a debate that has smoldered for centuries. It seems unlikely that the question will finally be resolved in this forum. Still discussion provides another example the unexpected pleasures one can find reading these forums. I do not pretend to have any expertise in the subject at hand. I thought it might be interesting to view the questions in the context of the way other arts are viewed... and then offer a suggestion to help resolve the problem.

Consider the example of painting:
I have read that many of the old master painters worked in schools or workshops where much of the less demanding painting was handled by their student/apprentices. Only a few painters will take the trouble to create their own frame, weave the cloth, or make their own paints. Many artists make limited production prints that are still considered collectable art.

In the world of music, Jazz provides an example of “art.” that is based upon variations or styling from the work of others. Few musicians will make their own instruments or compose their own songs. Much music cannot be made without the intimate collaboration of other musicians. With modern recording technology, the engineer and producer give examples of technicians that can bring a profound impact to an artists work.


Those comparisons seem to provide some support for a rather broader concept of art than many on these forums porpose. On the other hand, one must acknowledge ineffable satisfaction of art that is the totally unique work of an acknowledged master. If one were able to obtain a recording of Bach playing his own work the first time it would hold a good deal more fascination than the many recordings since then.

As the craft/art of custom knife making evolves, disputes about sole authorship become inherently more obscure. Hi-tech steels present heat treat challenges that may be best met by a specialists like Paul Bos. And much of the beauty of Damascus (pattern weld) blades originates from specialist steel makers. When do computer automated or apprentice helpers cloud the artistic merit of a product?

These questions create continual heated controversy. The discussions wander through endless disputes based upon personal value judgements. It seems doubtful that any one “standard” could fully resolve these disputes to everyone’s satisfaction. I wonder if it would be possible to arrive at some standardized “full disclosure statement and certificate of authenticity that would allow makers to state what standards they adhere to for any particular product. Possibly blade forums could provide a centralized public listing for this sort of information.

I feel this simple step would go a long way towards clarifying disputes that are causing unnecessary tension in this community. Further discussions of these controversies could proceed without impugning the integrity of honest and talented makers. :)
 
The works of Raphael Santi (1483-1520), are among the most highly prized masterpieces of Renaissance Art. He is considered in the same class as Leonardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo; Madonna and Child With the Little Saint John is probably his best know work. But, Rafael only painted the faces,hands and key parts of his subject, his students and assistants painted the bodies and the background. Sole authorship, or the lack there off, has done little to detract from Rafael's brilliance or market demand.

N2S
 
as i first started reading this and related threads one thing struck me as pretty lame.....the statement that this is a "touchy" subject to many makers! why on earth should it be a "touchy" subject?? if a maker has help in his shop yet wants to hide that fact then this tells me something is seriously wrong here! if he feels he needs to hide that information then i have to ask why? does it embarass him to admit he doesnt do all the work himself? is he ashamed of that fact so he feels know one should know? if being truly honest to your customers and fellow makers is "touchy" then maybe you should be politicians instead of knifemakers!
looking over all the opinions and excuses it still simply boils down to the fact of honesty and integrity as a person and a businessman. if being honest about the way you or your helpers make your knives is a "touchy" subject then buyer beware.

i still bandsaw out every part used in my knives because i dont make hundreds of knives a year, but this certainly takes no skill to do. ANYONE could do this. the maker still has to profile it exactly to his liking and fit everything together. plus there simply aint room in my shop for a helper! even i run into the machines constantly as the aisle grow small every year.

on the subject of sole authorship...for years i have sent my blades to Paul Bos for heat treating because i feel Paul does the best heat treating that can be done on the modern alloys. he has the atmosphere controlled ovens and expensive equipment to do the job right imho. Kit thinks that those knives should be called collaberations as the soul of the knife was done by Paul. hell, Kit has even heat treated a few blades for me. in reading his comments about things i get the impression he feels like having parts laser or waterjet cut or having a shop helper bandsaw out the blades is ok because it is grunt work that anyone can do. is not heat treating kinda the same?? does it take great skill or can you teach a helper to follow the simple steps in heat treating a blade? this year i bought an oven to do my 17-4 liners and springs that take 900 degrees for one hour to heat treat and have done a few ats34 blades as well and like Kit says, it dont take a rocket scientist. blade grinding is totally different in that it does take skill and experience to grind a beautiful blade. fitting and finishing takes skills honed over the years as does engraving. i, like others here cannot see his comparison of heat treating to blade grinding as one does take the knifemakers skill and artistry and one does not. Kit, no offense meant here at all as you have helped me greatly in learning about heat treating, but honestly, couldnt high school kids learn it pretty quickly? i truly love doing all the work on a knife totally by myself and more and more i will heat treat my own blades.

to me all of these problems still boil down to being honest and up front about what you do. if a collector doesnt want a knife that isnt heat treated by the maker, then simply dont buy them, go elsewhere. if a maker meets your criteria for buying from him, then whats the problem? but makers that "hide" things and arent truthful about how and who works on their knives.....the risk is yours. it seems throughout history the honest people come to light time and again and the cheats surface as they get caught at their game regularly.
and money seems to be the main culprit of deciept(sp) and of course time. isnt greed a wonderful thing:( well, i am in no hurry and aint getting rich making knives but its my passion. if i cant afford fancy machines i use files and sandpaper. i just want to make my knives as best i can and appreciate that there are collectors out there that appreciate the work i put into them. anyone can come to my shop and see how i do everything as i have nothing to hide and no hidden employees. not even a young secretary i could use as a tacbabe to promote my knives:(
 
Darn Tim,

I was going to go visit you; but, I was under the impression that you had a flock of scantly clad Tacbabes helping out in the shop. :)
 
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