Recommendation? Solid all-around Hunter prototype - Critique wanted

[jdm61]

This "Nesmuk" style is one of the most requested styles I receive...There are many variations but Bob Loveless Nailed it!!!

Sheesh. Look how deep those grinds are.

 

[J. Doyle]

Fortunately, the human hand is highly adaptable and as one gains experience, your skills improve. An expert field dresser could do a better job with a broadhead on his arrow than a novice with his first deer down could do with the finest hunting knife on the planet.

So none of this matters too much...I mean, no one's life is at stake here or anything.

 

[Busto]

I prefer an "Elf" choil just for the ease of sharpening a field knife. For a Display piece No Choil will win to keep the clean Lines. When explaining to a customer not familiar why the two exist the next question is if its going on display or in the field and explain the virtues of each...rarely will a field user pass on the choil...

 

[skillgannon]

I hunt and tried to read everything I could about hunting before meeting my wife and have to be careful about the subject . I love to cook and my main focus like you is kitchen knives. I think your knife could process meat and break down a animal very well. The problem is that a hunting knife is a compromise knife. It's basically a bushcrafter with things left off or not put on that would interfere with breaking down a animal . The drop point design is near perfect . Some use older stylised knives because hunting has a heritage and many take a less effective knife out of homage just the same as some guys use hand made bows and flint arrowheads. This kinda explain the different hunting knives. The truth is that most hunters don't shoot a deer every year and that means for most people there can be years between shooting a deer or whatever but they still carry the knife. But that knife does a lot of other things. Even when a animal is down maybe branches need to be cut out of your way ,maybe the deer gets hanged and wood is nipped and cut. So long as a knife doesn't perform poorly it's the other task and the looks that people like. For pros from what I have heard most prefer knives like butcher sets. In fact I have a few friends who shoot way more deer than I do and they all want boning knives and fillet knives. They also want small short drop points.

I like your knife a lot. You may find some people who this it's great because it looks different. My thoughts are though that even though it would process game well it may suffer at other task like cutting wood. When a animal has roles next to a 3/4" branch that keeps it from being roled you will notice your knifes performance cutting wood more than anything else . I think less night at the heal and a straighter handle with a larger butt to get the same drop as what you have will do well. Everything I have ever read has said drop point blade 3.5"-4.5" 5"-6"MAX. Ideally shot enough to extend a finger under the point to keep from cutting unwanted things as the animal is opened. Depending on the hunter and his skill the blade can face forwards, backwards, tip up or tip down choked or back on the handle and use with fingers.

 

[KoboldForges]

I think I would love that knife in the kitchen with a different bevel.

 

[Randydb]

If I was carrying a knife solely for field dressing and skinning it would be that loveless. Funny thing is personally I think that style looks ugly and out of proportion to how a knife should look. But functionally they are incredible.

Thing is when I am out in the bush I am often using my knife for so many different things. I often decide to carry some form of compromise that is a bushcraft style with a drop point. Get's the job done when I get an animal but also has the ability to perform many other tasks well too.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

The counter point to that is having an edge that loses some length with every sharpening because that last little bit right next to the plunge lines is almost impossible to sharpen, at least not without gouging and scratching and rounding your nice clean crisp lines.

Plus the knives that get repeated sharpening over the years look like crap as that edge wears up higher and higher.

Its a trade-off....like most things knifemaking.....you can have not snagging that heel/choil/notch on stuff or immediate and long term ease of maintenance/lasting pleasing aesthetics. Myself and 98% of my collectors choose the latter.

I have to agree with the latter as well. Ease of sharpening and blade life trumps the other IMHO.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I hunt and tried to read everything I could about hunting before meeting my wife and have to be careful about the subject . I love to cook and my main focus like you is kitchen knives. I think your knife could process meat and break down a animal very well. The problem is that a hunting knife is a compromise knife. It's basically a bushcrafter with things left off or not put on that would interfere with breaking down a animal . The drop point design is near perfect . Some use older stylised knives because hunting has a heritage and many take a less effective knife out of homage just the same as some guys use hand made bows and flint arrowheads. This kinda explain the different hunting knives. The truth is that most hunters don't shoot a deer every year and that means for most people there can be years between shooting a deer or whatever but they still carry the knife. But that knife does a lot of other things. Even when a animal is down maybe branches need to be cut out of your way ,maybe the deer gets hanged and wood is nipped and cut. So long as a knife doesn't perform poorly it's the other task and the looks that people like. For pros from what I have heard most prefer knives like butcher sets. In fact I have a few friends who shoot way more deer than I do and they all want boning knives and fillet knives. They also want small short drop points.

I like your knife a lot. You may find some people who this it's great because it looks different. My thoughts are though that even though it would process game well it may suffer at other task like cutting wood. When a animal has roles next to a 3/4" branch that keeps it from being rolled you will notice your knifes performance cutting wood more than anything else . I think less height at the heal and a straighter handle with a larger butt to get the same drop as what you have will do well. Everything I have ever read has said drop point blade 3.5"-4.5" 5"-6"MAX. Ideally short enough to extend a finger under the point to keep from cutting unwanted things as the animal is opened. Depending on the hunter and his skill the blade can face forwards, backwards, tip up or tip down choked or back on the handle and use with fingers.

I like your perspective! I have had several experienced hunters tell me they like this knife. It is all subjective to some extent. But there is usually a majority, and you have to listen....
I do agree there are a lot of historical design features that aren't the best, and I have no problem discarding these personally.
In a discussion with Dave, I am coming to think a set of knives is likely best for processing game, as well as meeting the other 'general camp knife' functions.
I know there are a LOT of folks out there that will only ever own one hunting knife, give or take. A real set of specialty knives for camping and processing game isn't in the cards for many.
But that may not be my target market. As has been pointed out, there are a slew of good general design knives out there already. And as you note, probably most of the hunters out there do not score a deer, perhaps for years, or ever. Those are definitely not may target market. No disrespect to those who try, but I think they are just not as likely to feel the driving need to own an expensive custom knife or set designed for game processing.

Regarding your specific critique, I agree that it needs to evolve a bit. I like the height of the blade, and to a large extent that was with an eye toward processing fish (deba quality). But perhaps it can be reduced (trade off) and still work well enough. I agree straightening out the handle a bit will allow for more variation in grip, so seems a very practical design change.
I'll have to test it out on some wood chopping. It will probably perform just fine. In fact it should hold up very well if the edge geometry is right. But there one must consider the trade off for best geometry for chopping wood vs. processing game. Which is more important?
Seriously, a small axe or hawk seems a reasonable addition to a field cutlery set.

Here is a quick sketch of a potential redesign.

 

[J. Doyle]

I think the fish processing aspect is confusing too. What types of fish? And what does 'processing' mean in this application?

A lot of sportsmen (hunters) catch and clean perch, bluegill, crappie, trout, pike and walleye. That knife would be terrible to clean any of those.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I think the fish processing aspect is confusing too. What types of fish? And what does 'processing' mean in this application?
A lot of sportsmen (hunters) catch and clean perch, bluegill, crappie, trout, pike and walleye. That knife would be terrible to clean any of those.

Yep it's a very relative thing isn't it, regarding the range of potential fish. Bluegill, trout, these are usually so small that cleaning them is not a fruitful endeavor. Gut them and cook whole, that works.
I'm a pacific coast diver, so fish with more slab like qualities, perhaps like a decent crappie.
I can visualize cleaning a ling or halibut with my design. I think I could make it work well, but road testing is the key.
I would probably modify the grind a bit if it were specifically for cleaning fish. The Japanese figured it out. Their solution is drastically different than what most Americans think of as a fish cleaning knife.
I agree, if you tried to use my knife like you would an American type fillet knife, it would royally suck at the task. That isn't how it's intended to be used on fish.

 

[skillgannon]

I like your perspective! I have had several experienced hunters tell me they like this knife. It is all subjective to some extent. But there is usually a majority, and you have to listen....
I do agree there are a lot of historical design features that aren't the best, and I have no problem discarding these personally.
In a discussion with Dave, I am coming to think a set of knives is likely best for processing game, as well as meeting the other 'general camp knife' functions.
I know there are a LOT of folks out there that will only ever own one hunting knife, give or take. A real set of specialty knives for camping and processing game isn't in the cards for many.
But that may not be my target market. As has been pointed out, there are a slew of good general design knives out there already. And as you note, probably most of the hunters out there do not score a deer, perhaps for years, or ever. Those are definitely not may target market. No disrespect to those who try, but I think they are just not as likely to feel the driving need to own an expensive custom knife or set designed for game processing.

Regarding your specific critique, I agree that it needs to evolve a bit. I like the height of the blade, and to a large extent that was with an eye toward processing fish (deba quality). But perhaps it can be reduced (trade off) and still work well enough. I agree straightening out the handle a bit will allow for more variation in grip, so seems a very practical design change.
I'll have to test it out on some wood chopping. It will probably perform just fine. In fact it should hold up very well if the edge geometry is right. But there one must consider the trade off for best geometry for chopping wood vs. processing game. Which is more important?
Seriously, a small axe or hawk seems a reasonable addition to a field cutlery set.

Here is a quick sketch of a potential redesign.
View attachment 874981

The new design looks nice. I bounced some ideas off my uncle last night who has got at least a deer most of the time for the last 40 years and also did a fair bit if poaching when he was young. He also worked in a meat packing plant for a while. He was open to different blades so long as they function well but his big thing was handles having ways to be held on to when slippery, guards contours, texture ect. That said he and most of the other hardcore hunters don't carry belt knives they carry folders of choice and have a field dressing bundle in the pack. The big thing they are looking for is boning knives. For what all of that is worth .

I really like knives like your new design. I have made a few that have simular blade profiles. I will love to see what you end up with.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

.....40 years and also did a fair bit if poaching when he was young. .....

LOL. Nice. Not that I am condoning it at all. But I remember at 13 walking down the block, crawling through a drain pipe under a 4 lane freeway (the 101) with a 30-30 and 3 friends to get a deer on a hill in what is now a very nice neighborhood near Pismo beach. Awesome stuff.

 

[weo]

There's a reason that decades of hunting/field knives largely fall into a relatively narrow window WRT length/height/shape with only minor variations. "If it ain't broke......."

I'm really not trying to pick on you, John but I have always been an "outside the box" thinker and almost every time I see this sentiment (which is quite often in this forum) I cringe. There definitely is a lot of truth in this sentiment, however we shouldn't forget that if everyone always had this attitude, we wouldn't be flying, driving, have all the effective meds, etc...

Brock, I'd encourage you (and anyone else for that matter) to go ahead with what design you feel is adequate, but taking the above into consideration, the smart thing would be to make only a few to give to folks for field testing, and not be to egotistical to take advice on modifications. Also, don't be surprised if what you end up with is basically the same design as what's bee used. By the same token, for those who do follow the above sentiment, don't be so stubborn to accept that this is a better design.

Just my dos pesos.

as always
peace and love
billyO

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I'm really not trying to pick on you, John but I have always been an "outside the box" thinker and almost every time I see this sentiment (which is quite often in this forum) I cringe. There definitely is a lot of truth in this sentiment, however we shouldn't forget that if everyone always had this attitude, we wouldn't be flying, driving, have all the effective meds, etc...

Brock, I'd encourage you (and anyone else for that matter) to go ahead with what design you feel is adequate, but taking the above into consideration, the smart thing would be to make only a few to give to folks for field testing, and not be to egotistical to take advice on modifications. Also, don't be surprised if what you end up with is basically the same design as what's bee used. By the same token, for those who do follow the above sentiment, don't be so stubborn to accept that this is a better design.

Just my dos pesos.

as always
peace and love
billyO

Great advice Billy. The traditional is in place for a reason, usually a slew of very good reasons. Change comes with a battle, almost always. But change always comes.

I think I have 7 of these profiled out and heat treated. I will get some of them into the hands of folks who know how and will use them, then get feedback.

 

[J. Doyle]

I'm really not trying to pick on you, John but I have always been an "outside the box" thinker and almost every time I see this sentiment (which is quite often in this forum) I cringe. There definitely is a lot of truth in this sentiment, however we shouldn't forget that if everyone always had this attitude, we wouldn't be flying, driving, have all the effective meds, etc...

Brock, I'd encourage you (and anyone else for that matter) to go ahead with what design you feel is adequate, but taking the above into consideration, the smart thing would be to make only a few to give to folks for field testing, and not be to egotistical to take advice on modifications. Also, don't be surprised if what you end up with is basically the same design as what's bee used. By the same token, for those who do follow the above sentiment, don't be so stubborn to accept that this is a better design.

Just my dos pesos.

as always
peace and love
billyO

That is all good and may very well be true for *some* things....but it isn't always the case.

The knife in question will never be the new image of the quintessential game/field utility knife.......for very sound, already mentioned reasons.

New meds, cars, etc evolve because the problems they solve evolve or become resistant.

Unless deer/other game and how we need to dress them evolve to be resistant to the knives that have dressed them for decades, experienced sportsmen have already figured out what works best and why.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

The knife in question will never be the new image of the quintessential game/field utility knife.......for very sound, already mentioned reasons.

I hate to use the words never and always, but that said, I really wasn't putting this design forward as the obvious replacement for the quintessential hunter. It is my stab at a new idea. That's it. I know you know that John. I just want to ensure that folks know I know that too.
Ideas evolve, and things change. It will be interesting to see what my prototype looks like next year. Probably will be significantly different.

Just to shoot the breeze on the general topic: Someone mentioned that tradition tends to stick around well beyond it's utility. I agree and think there is plenty of room to improve knives, but I think it has a lot to do with changing the way we use them.
In my experience in both hunting and fishing, I find that the majority of people I have encountered (anecdotal experience) don't really know how to use or even sharpen a knife properly.
I included myself in this group until fairly recently. While I was pretty good at sharpening and use, I didn't have much knowledge of steel or design, and had very poor exposure to the existing variety of knives in existence today and the different ways they were used. The standard America fillet vs the Deba is a great example of variation existing today. I have learned so much about knives in the last three years, and certainly still have a ways to go.
All things considered it is a big ship to turn around. It will turn slowly. Hey, but that's what custom knife makers are here for. To teach folks how to use the tools, and to make great tools to use.
It is pretty exciting to be a small part of that process. This is the life eh? Good stuff.

 

[Natlek]

I like your perspective! I have had several experienced hunters tell me they like this knife. It is all subjective to some extent. But there is usually a majority, and you have to listen....
I do agree there are a lot of historical design features that aren't the best, and I have no problem discarding these personally.
In a discussion with Dave, I am coming to think a set of knives is likely best for processing game, as well as meeting the other 'general camp knife' functions.
I know there are a LOT of folks out there that will only ever own one hunting knife, give or take. A real set of specialty knives for camping and processing game isn't in the cards for many.
But that may not be my target market. As has been pointed out, there are a slew of good general design knives out there already. And as you note, probably most of the hunters out there do not score a deer, perhaps for years, or ever. Those are definitely not may target market. No disrespect to those who try, but I think they are just not as likely to feel the driving need to own an expensive custom knife or set designed for game processing.

Regarding your specific critique, I agree that it needs to evolve a bit. I like the height of the blade, and to a large extent that was with an eye toward processing fish (deba quality). But perhaps it can be reduced (trade off) and still work well enough. I agree straightening out the handle a bit will allow for more variation in grip, so seems a very practical design change.
I'll have to test it out on some wood chopping. It will probably perform just fine. In fact it should hold up very well if the edge geometry is right. But there one must consider the trade off for best geometry for chopping wood vs. processing game. Which is more important?
Seriously, a small axe or hawk seems a reasonable addition to a field cutlery set.

Here is a quick sketch of a potential redesign.
View attachment 874981

Well....................

 

[WC53]

Look at the general shape of the old little finger but with a bit more blade and not the ugly bolster. I use a small 6” rapala from 70’s as a bird and trout knife and have skinned many deer with it. A thin blade with much less overall height makes it easier to move around the muscles tendons and joints. Of course I am old and set it my ways.

That Loveless is stunning, but I have grown to prefer a lghter thinner knife blade.

 

[weo]

All very good points, John.

However, I agree a bit more with Brock on the "never and always".
Having come across some things that people said were impossible, I just dislike discouraging innovation for most things.

~billyO

 

[J. Doyle]

Look....its a fine knife. And if Brock wants to make it.....great. That's what being a custom maker is all about.

He specifically asked about it from experienced hunters about being a good all around game knife.....and it isn't, to the overwhelmingly vast majority.

There is a place sometimes for 'always' and 'never'. It might be the perfect knife for a few folks but it will never be the ideal hunting/field knife for most.

I see it like this: I could say that I've been designing a fillet knife to be my take on the ultimate fillet knife and I've spent months drawing and planning and tweaking it. Then I introduce a prototype that's a quintessential bowie knife. I can call it a fillet knife. I can say that its a good fillet knife. I can even fillet fish with it. And maybe its the perfect fillet knife for me and a few others. But it will 'NEVER' be the vast majority's image of a fillet knife. Because all fillet knives basically look the same....for a reason. Fisherman all over the world have figured out why fillet knives work as well as they do. And my bowie/fillet knife will never work as well as a true fillet knife.