Some 2nd impressions of Al Mar SERE 2000

[Hair]

Sometimes yes, but othertimes I think there are blatent errors that should just not be acceptable on a knife that is over $100.

Why $100? A $150 knife shouldn't have any better fit and finish than a $50 one.

When you go from a $50 knife to a $150 one, you are paying for better materials, and sometimes just more materials (i.e. a large size). A Manix costs more than a Delica because it is larger and uses higher-end materials, not because Spyderco puts more human eyes and hands on each Manix to make sure the fit and finish is better.

All common production knives, whether they cost 30 dollars like a Kershaw Storm, or 130 dollars like a SERE 2000 are going to have some fit and finish issues.

Paying people to thouroghly check every knife that leaves the factory for any flaws, and to spend time fixing them or making sure they never happen in the first place requires a lot of money.

If you want a perfect production knife, buy a Chris Reeve or a William Henry. They cost more, but that cost is needed for that level of perfection. I.e., there is a reason they cost that much. And there is a reason the SERE is so cheap.

No offense, but $130 for a knife is cheap. A SERE 2000 is more in the same quality class as a Delica than it is with a Sebenza. Same goes for price. I know $130 is a lot for a non-knife person to spend. People freak out when I tell them my knife cost 80 bucks, so 100-200 bucks sure raises some eyebrows and 500 bucks has caused some heads to explode. But a Corvette is still a Chevy. You shouldn't expect it to be a McLaren just because it costs more than a Cavalier. Yeah, a Corvette is expensive for most people, but it isn't a McLaren, and it costs less for a reason. Now, a Corvette is a great bargain that will perform along side many more expensive exotics (just as a SERE will perform with a Sebenza), but you should not expect the Corvette to have the detail of a McLaren- in reality it isn't going to have better detail than a Cavalier as it is made by the same people to the same standards.

I have a pretty good eye for flaws. I think people should be hard on common production knives and I don't like it when someone says the fit and finish of a normal Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, Buck, Al Mar, etc... is "perfect". No, it isn't. But I think we have to live with these flaws as long as they do not harm the function of the knife because there isn't a way to get rid of them without driving up the cost of the knives. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. But that doesn't mean you should pretend the flaws are not there and call it perfect.

In other words, I am saying it is okay to complain about fit and finish issues on any knife- They are real issues. But I don't think "my knife shouldn't have these issues because it costs over 100 dollars" is a good arguement because a mass produced 100-200 dollar knife is, frankly, cheap and not special. If you want better fit and finish, well, it actually costs more than that.

Also keep in mind that there are handmade knives under 200 bucks with very good fit and finish, but they are not mass produced like Al Mars and the don't always offer as good of a materials to price ratio.

 

[ehhh]

No offense, but I find your logic flawed.

If we paid only for better materials and quantity of materials, then prices across all makers should only vary with what they use and how much of it they use. Then the SERE2000 should cost just a tad more than a Spyderco D'Allara. They are very close in size, use the same blade material, but have different handle materials. The difference in quantity of these materials is probably rather small, so that shouldn't vary the price too much. But really, the SERE costs twice as much as the Spyderco. Why am I paying twice as much for almost the same material quality and quantity?

You are also paying the workers, funding R&D, machinery, designers, etc. If it was all about the materials, why would I go out and spend 400 on a Sebenza? Why not a BM Mini-skirmish? Similar materials, similar size, 3 times cheaper. Why? You pay for labor quality, tighter tolerances, better quality control, etc., not just materials.

$130 may be pocket change for you, but not everyone is as well off as you may be, or in the same situation. When comparing to other production knives, 130 is pretty high up there. There are so many options under $130, but not quite as many above (sticking with production knives here). This, in my book, makes it expensive. I'd also have to say a $10 40w lightbulb for a typical lamp would be expensive. Is it a lot of money? No, but comparatively it is. Comparatively, AMK makes expensive production knives.

You also contradict yourself by saying: "If you want better fit and finish, well, it actually costs more than that."

Yes, everything has issues, I never said it was a sin to produce and sell a flawed product, and most of my complaint is in the service. This flaw happens to bother me, because I feel it is a flaw that has a very low chance of happening. Blade centering does not bother me, because I find that it isn't that uncommon to have a blade .5mm off center. Not everyone has the same standards and only a fraction of the people who buy the knives will actually take the time to send it back. Companies don't check everything, it's true. But they do calculate how much it costs them to let some defects slide, how many returns they might actually get (remember, not everyone sends a flaw in), and they balance it out with the cost of inspection. This is known as profit maximization.

I do in fact expect much better fit and finish from my $100+ Benchmade and SERE than I do from a $10 S&W. Are you saying you wouldn't?

I must agree with you here though:
"I think people should be hard on common production knives and I don't like it when someone says the fit and finish of a normal Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, Buck, Al Mar, etc... is 'perfect'. No, it isn't."

Jon

 

[Hair]

No offense, but I find your logic flawed.

It's not. In fact, I'm not really applying logic at all. I am just stating the way it is. I didn't decide what the rules were.

If we paid only for better materials and quantity of materials, then prices across all makers should only vary with what they use and how much of it they use. Then the SERE2000 should cost just a tad more than a Spyderco D'Allara. They are very close in size, use the same blade material, but have different handle materials. The difference in quantity of these materials is probably rather small, so that shouldn't vary the price too much. But really, the SERE costs twice as much as the Spyderco. Why am I paying twice as much for almost the same material quality and quantity?

G-10 is a lot more expensive than FRN. That is the reason for the price difference, not because a knife that costs around the same as the SERE has better quality control than a knife that costs around the same as the D'Allara. It has the same quality control (within the same company). To restate my point (and keep it within a single company to keep it simple):

A Native costs less than a Dodo because FRN is cheaper than G-10. The difference in price is a matter of materials, not quality control. The knives are both made in Golden Colorado to the same QC standards. Spyderco does not put more human eyes and hands on the Dodo just because it has a higher materials cost.

Now, G-10 does require more hands-on work, and those extra man-hours are part of the reason G-10 costs more than FRN. However, time spent finishing G-10 does not effect any other area of fit and finish on the knife.

You are also paying the workers, funding R&D, machinery, designers, etc. If it was all about the materials, why would I go out and spend 400 on a Sebenza? Why not a BM Mini-skirmish? Similar materials, similar size, 3 times cheaper. Why? You pay for labor quality, tighter tolerances, better quality control, etc., not just materials.

I think you missed most of my point. The Sebenza costs more (than a Skirmish) because it *DOES* have better fit and finish. The Al Mar costs more (than, say, A Griptilian) because of materials. With a Sebenza, you pay for better QC. With a SERE, you do not. If you did, it would cost more. You know... like the Sebenza does.

There are other reasons the Sebenza costs more: CRK is a smaller company that does not sell as many knives. Dealing in less volume, they need to make a larger profit per knife. But the main reason is that high-end production companies like CRK use legal price fixing. Dealers have to charge the suggested price or they don't get any more knives. This is why a Skirmish has a street price far below the MSRP, but every new Sebenza is $330/$385 (S/L). If you had to pay MSRP on every knife, the Skirmish would be a lot closer to the Sebenza. But with a Skirmish you get BM QC. The same standards they apply to the Griptilian, or the 710. The fact that a Skirmish costs more than them both is because it has titanium and S30V, not because BM puts more man hours into the QC of the Skirmish. Now, with CRK, you pay more because CRK does devote more attention to every knife.

$130 may be pocket change for you, but not everyone is as well off as you may be, or in the same situation. When comparing to other production knives, 130 is pretty high up there. There are so many options under $130, but not quite as many above (sticking with production knives here). This, in my book, makes it expensive. I'd also have to say a $10 40w lightbulb for a typical lamp would be expensive. Is it a lot of money? No, but comparatively it is. Comparatively, AMK makes expensive production knives.

I am not rich, and $130 is not pocket change for me. But there are many (countless) knives that cost well over 400 dollars. There are also many knife collectors that solely buy these knives and have no interest in common production knives. So yes, it is all relative. My point is that the SERE is a common, mass produced production knife. It is not a Sebenza, and it is not a custom. It is made largely by the same standards as all of the common, mass produced production knives that cost $30. While the difference in price between a Native and a Manix may seem like a lot, my point is that, in terms of QC, they are in the same class. Now, $385 for a Sebenza is a large jump in price, and another class of quality. So if a SERE is "expensive", then what do you call the several classes of knives above it? Super Expensive? Then Hyper Expensive? I understand your point that there are so many knives cheaper than the SERE that it is relativly expensive, but *THAT* is flawed logic because the reason they are cheap is because they are common and mass produced. Because the cheapest products are generally *FAR* more common than the more expensive ones, anything other than bottom of the barrel flea market stuff is far outnumbered. There are countless junk knives cheaper than a Native, but that doesn't mean a Native is expensive, does it? If someone said a Native was "expensive" because they saw tons of cheaper knives at a swap meet, wouldn't you correct them and inform them about the many classes of knives that are more expensive? Would you let them know that the Native is actually pretty cheap? Why draw the "expensive" line at the SERE instead of the Native when they are, generally speaking, in the same class (meaning they are both mass produced production knives)? Yes the class spans a bit of money, but the higher the class, the greater span of cost. Flea market knives span less money. Handmade customs can span a very large range of cost.

You also contradict yourself by saying: "If you want better fit and finish, well, it actually costs more than that."

How does that contradict myself? It is just a statement of fact. Getting better fit and finish costs more money. Knives that cost $10-99 have virtually the same fit and finish as knives that cost $100-200. There isn't some magic line that happens at three digits. Despite the transition to three-digit prices, knives that cost under $100 have largely the same QC standards as knives costing over $100. The difference is a matter of materials, not QC. If you want better fit and finish, you have to pay more than $130 for a SERE. That's just the way it is.

I do in fact expect much better fit and finish from my $100+ Benchmade and SERE than I do from a $10 S&W. Are you saying you wouldn't?

S&W is a different brand, so it is harder to compare. But for the most part, yes. And for the most part, the F&F is very similar. I only have one S&W knife, but the F&F on it is just as good as the F&F on any of my BM and my Al Mar. But I know this is probably due to some luck. In general, I would be more weary of buying a S&W without getting to look it over first. This is a matter of the company, not the cost,

So again.. different companies. You seem to be missing my point.

I expect the F&F between a Griptilian and a 710 to be the same. The 710 costs more (over $100), but that is mostly because of the G-10. The two knives now both come in 154CM standard, so that isn't an issue even. They are both made to the same QC standards. And in reality, they do have the same F&F. Just because the 710 costs over $100 is no reason to expect it to have better F&F. The extra money to pay goes to the G-10, not better QC.

Now if you start comparing a 710 to knives made in other factories, be it S&W or Red Class BMs, then it is harder to compare. But yes, overall, the fit and finish of a 710 is not going to be the main advantage of buying it over a Red Class BM. The main advantage is materials.

When a company puts out a knife with a street price of over $100, they don't automatically devote more attention to the F&F of that model. It costs more to make because of the materials, so they charge more, but the QC of the factory is the same.

If you want better F&F than a Griptilian, you don't buy a 710, or a SERE 2000 for that matter. So any flaw you would be willing to let slide on a $50 Griptilian, should also be let slide on a $130 dollar knife, as the QC standards have not changed.

I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying "the SERE is cheap crap and that you cannot afford good knives, hahah, I laugh at you". The SERE is a fantastic knife. But a $130 knife just isn't top of the line. Now, I don't think the more expensive knives (custom included) are actually much better than the SERE at all. I think spending additional hundreds yields a very small improvement. But there is an improvement, and it is largely a matter of F&F as the money you spend goes towards more human control and involvement with the knives.

The SERE may be a high-end mass produced knife, but it's still a mass produced knife.

Also, my comments were general, not aimed at you. I do not have your specific SERE in my hands, so I cannot say that the flaws it has are acceptable to me more not.

I just think that comments such as "I didn't expect to see these flaws in a $150 knife" show ignorance, because those same people would not say "I didn't expect to see these flaws in a $50 knife". They would be fine with those flaws in a cheaper knife, even though the fact that it is cheaper has nothing to do with the quality control. Having G-10 slabs doesn't mean the grinds are going to be better. With a SERE, you pay for that G-10, not better F&F. If you want to get better F&F than you find in $50 knives (and keep the better materials), you have to pay for that too, and it runs a pretty penny, not just $50-150 bucks. $130 gets you better materials than most $50 knives, but it doesn't get you into the next quality class. Sorry, I don't make the rules.

 

[beefangusbeef]

Ehhhh, I don't know for 150 I can get a benchmade rukus or skirmish and I'd say they're in a higher quality class than say an s30v native even though they have the same blade materials...

 

[Hair]

Ehhhh, I don't know for 150 I can get a benchmade rukus or skirmish and I'd say they're in a higher quality class than say an s30v native even though they have the same blade materials...

How are they higher quality? What F&F or QC flaws does the Native tend to have that a Skirmish or Rukus would not?

 

[Eric J]

Guys, I just want to say that my Sere 2K is a terrific knife that is scary sharp. It won't outcut a serrated Spydie, but it is extremely well made and cuts, cuts, cuts!

 

[ehhh]

Snip

I know your comments were general but to me they are false and largely unsupported. G10 probably isn't going to double the cost compared to FRN (comparing Al Mar's SERE to Spyderco's D'Allara). You also pay for quality and that's that. Different production companies have different quality control, I can't see how that isn't factored into their costs. Yes, much of the cost at this price level will be for materials, but some of that is still for quality. You are still paying workers to check on things, keep the machines working correctly, etc. Yes, companies that produce knives at very similar price points (average cost of their knife) will have very similar QC. Companies that produce knives at different price points (on average) will not have the same standards.

You think these factory guys work for free? Also, I stated there are plenty of knives MUCH more expensive than the SERE, but comparatively there are SO MANY MORE below that price point. Do me a favor and name all the knives that are above that price point (sticking to productions, not counting CRK, because like you said, they are in another class - semi-production). Once you do that, I will find all the knives I can below the cost of a SERE, and we'll see where AMK stands, in the high end or low end (which is what I've been saying, not their actual cost but comparatively where they stand).

You also seem to think I'm comparing the SERE with other knives from AMK, I'm not. Yes, within a company, cost is mostly materials when they are made in the same factory. Comparing across companies is vastly different. They are not made in the same factory, they are not under the same supervision, they do not necessarily use the same machines, they do not have the same amount of QC workers, they do not have the same amount of guys keeping the machines running right, I could go on. This is where differences in things other than materials come into play. You are misunderstanding me. I am not comparing one company to itself. You even said it, "So again.. different companies." Yeah, different companies will have different standards, especially if they are not directly competing at the same price level.

"G-10 is a lot more expensive than FRN. That is the reason for the price difference, not because a knife that costs around the same as the SERE has better quality control than a knife that costs around the same as the D'Allara. It has the same quality control (within the same company). To restate my point (and keep it within a single company to keep it simple):"

You see, I'm not comparing the SERE against anything from their company. Really, you're keeping it within the same company so your argument actually holds ground (it's true F&F within a company will be nearly the same when its from the same factory). When you start comparing against other companies, it gets more complex and that complexity is real. You can't just discount it because it's not simple enough.

I can't really tell what you're trying to say. One minute you're telling me fit and finish is equal across all production from 10-200 (so 200 is the magic number then?), then next you're telling me it depends on the company. Make up your mind. I believe it does vary across companies and it will vary with prices (when comparing across companies). I'm not talking about day and night differences, but differences nonetheless. I'm not talking about some breakpoint in price either, where they say, "hey let's take better care of these." I'm saying companies are run different and have different standards. The companies that sell more expensive price need to pay a bit more attention to detail because they will be selling to a more scrutinizing crowd, lose more money on returns and thus require better machinery and labor to do these things. You think S&W puts the same attention to their knives as Al Mar might? You think the people who regularly buy S&W and are pleased with their purchase are as scrutinizing as the people of this forum? My guess is no to both. Different companies (is this too complex?) spend different amounts of money on these different factors and there are no "rules" that say Gerber has to have the same QC as Benchmade or whatever. Nobody makes these "rules" that you claim to exist and they don't just make themselves either.

Yes, when you compare companies that make knives that average in the same price point, they will be very similar, because they probably spend similar amounts on all those factors, because they take in similar amounts of money. When you consider a company that makes knives that average far below that price point, then you will see a difference in quality. I wasn't expecting the SERE to have any better QC than my Benchmade, yet it is more expensive. I was expecting it to have nearly equal QC (which it obviously does not). It doesn't have as nice a grind as my S&W, but the overall F&F is far above it, but you claim it shouldn't be.

Yeah certain things about the knife are absolutely great. But there are some QC issues, and that is a FACT (I received these "issues"). No I did not expect perfection, but I expected a level of quality higher than what was given to me. Yeah, I expect better quality from a $130 knife than a $50 one from a cheaper company. And yeah I expect it to be a bit different from other similar companies.

I'm not going to continue arguing with you, I think I'm right, you think you're right, that's probably not going to change. I'll stick to what I think, and you stick to yours. I posted this topic to share my experience with Al Mar, not to argue about how quality control is or isn't a variable between different production companies.

Allow me to reiterate:
Function: Great. Very sharp, locks up nicely, smooth opening.
Design: Great. Some jimping would be nice for better thumb grip though.
Fit: Great. Solid as a rock, no play at all.
Finish: Not so great on the blade, had issues here on both knives.
Customer Service: Not so friendly in my case. Gives their company a bad name.

 

[beefangusbeef]

The grind on my native is off about as much as the one on your sere. Doesn't bother me it's a great knife. I would also go on to say my lil temperance is a much nicer knife and in a totally different category than the native. Tougher, stronger, more ergonomic (I hate FRN) than the native.

 

[Lenny_Goofoff]

a tiny correction
As Sal mentioned in some thread, G10 is more expensive because it need to be machined and not molded

to much letters, guys
you'll get carpal tunnel if this thread contyinues ))

 

[ehhh]

a tiny correction
As Sal mentioned in some thread, G10 is more expensive because it need to be machined and not molded

to much letters, guys
you'll get carpal tunnel if this thread contyinues ))

I realize that it's more expensive, but does it double the price (or raise the street price by $60-70?) of a knife to use G10 instead of FRN? I'm guessing no (my cheapo S&W has G10...), but I could be wrong.

 

[Hair]

I know your comments were general but to me they are false and largely unsupported.

Actually, they were 100% true and supported by reality. I don't see how you can disagree with facts.

G10 probably isn't going to double the cost compared to FRN (comparing Al Mar's SERE to Spyderco's D'Allara).

Actually, yes it does often double the cost.

You also pay for quality and that's that.

Quality doesn't magically increase just because the materials cost more.

Different production companies have different quality control, I can't see how that isn't factored into their costs.

Please read my posts before replying. I have stated several times that different companies have different levels of quality. That is actually sort of my point. But there isn't a reason to expect the quality of a knife to be higher since it costs more when the reason for the cost increase is materials cost.

Yes, much of the cost at this price level will be for materials, but some of that is still for quality. You are still paying workers to check on things, keep the machines working correctly, etc. Yes, companies that produce knives at very similar price points (average cost of their knife) will have very similar QC. Companies that produce knives at different price points (on average) will not have the same standards.

Aye, and that is my point. Al Mar makes knives that cost $10 to several hundred dollars. So why exactly do you expect a SERE to have better quality than a D'Allara? Both companies make knives of the same pricepoints. Al Mar does make some high-end hand-crafted knives such as the Shiva. They cost a lot more than a SERE.

Here is what you don't seem to be able to get: Al Mar is not Chris Reeve, they are Spyderco. They are Kershaw. They are Benchmade. I don't know how you got it into your head that Al Mar was supposed to be a "higher pricepoint" than Spyderco, but they aren't.

And again, I am talking about knives in general, not your SERE.

I will say this ONE MORE TIME:

When you move up from a Griptilian to a 710, you get higher-end materials, not better QC. The QC is the same- same workers, same machines, same factories. The materials are why the 710 costs more. So... when someone accepts a flaw in a Griptilian but not a 710 because the 710 costs over 100 bucks, they are showing ignorance as to where there money is going.

You think these factory guys work for free?

Are you kidding me? Please read my posts. No, I do not think they work for free. But I know they don't get paid more to make a 710 than they do to make a Griptilian just because G-10 is more expensive than FRN. Same guys, same pay, same work. Same QC. Different price. Are you starting to get it?

Also, I stated there are plenty of knives MUCH more expensive than the SERE, but comparatively there are SO MANY MORE below that price point. Do me a favor and name all the knives that are above that price point (sticking to productions, not counting CRK, because like you said, they are in another class - semi-production). Once you do that, I will find all the knives I can below the cost of a SERE, and we'll see where AMK stands, in the high end or low end (which is what I've been saying, not their actual cost but comparatively where they stand).

There are SO MANY MORE knives cheaper than a Byrd Raven. Does that make it expensive? No. Your logic is faulty.

You also seem to think I'm comparing the SERE with other knives from AMK, I'm not. Yes, within a company, cost is mostly materials when they are made in the same factory.

That is all I am saying, so why are you argueing?

Comparing across companies is vastly different.

Which I have said all along. Please read, then reply.

They are not made in the same factory, they are not under the same supervision, they do not necessarily use the same machines, they do not have the same amount of QC workers, they do not have the same amount of guys keeping the machines running right, I could go on. This is where differences in things other than materials come into play. You are misunderstanding me. I am not comparing one company to itself. You even said it, "So again.. different companies." Yeah, different companies will have different standards, especially if they are not directly competing at the same price level.

And so you are posting... because?

You see, I'm not comparing the SERE against anything from their company. Really, you're keeping it within the same company so your argument actually holds ground (it's true F&F within a company will be nearly the same when its from the same factory). When you start comparing against other companies, it gets more complex and that complexity is real. You can't just discount it because it's not simple enough.

I am not discounting anything. I am just stating that the reason your SERE costs more than $100 is because of the materials, and not because it has great QC.

I can't really tell what you're trying to say. One minute you're telling me fit and finish is equal across all production from 10-200 (so 200 is the magic number then?), then next you're telling me it depends on the company.[/qoute]
You really can't tell what I am trying to say. I have never contradicted myself and never taken anything back. You just can't seem to understand.

I never said F&F is equal across all companies. Of course it will vary. Duh. I said that the increase in price from a $50 knife to a $150 dollar one is mainly due to materials, not because the company puts more man hours into the F&F. Hence, you should not expect better F&F from a $150 knife than a $50 one. This goes for any company.

I never said $200 was the magic number. If you could keep up, you would realize that I am saying THERE ISN'T A MAGIC NUMBER. That was your silly notion, not mine. I said "200" because you said "over 100". I was using the utter silliness of there being a magic cutoff point to show you how silly you were being.

I believe it does vary across companies and it will vary with prices (when comparing across companies). I'm not talking about day and night differences, but differences nonetheless. I'm not talking about some breakpoint in price either, where they say, "hey let's take better care of these." I'm saying companies are run different and have different standards. The companies that sell more expensive price need to pay a bit more attention to detail because they will be selling to a more scrutinizing crowd, lose more money on returns and thus require better machinery and labor to do these things. You think S&W puts the same attention to their knives as Al Mar might? You think the people who regularly buy S&W and are pleased with their purchase are as scrutinizing as the people of this forum? My guess is no to both. Different companies (is this too complex?) spend different amounts of money on these different factors and there are no "rules" that say Gerber has to have the same QC as Benchmade or whatever. Nobody makes these "rules" that you claim to exist and they don't just make themselves either.

I have pretty much addressed this above, but I do think I see your error now. You think Al Mar is a "more expensive" company than companies that make less expensive knives than the SERE. Al Mar makes a lot of cheaper knives. They are not a "more expensive" company than Spyderco, or Benchmade. I never said S&W puts the same attention into their knives as Al Mar, but that doesn't change the fact that a $150 Moki Al Mar is going to have the same QC as a $50 Moki Al Mar. Starting to follow?

Yes, when you compare companies that make knives that average in the same price point, they will be very similar, because they probably spend similar amounts on all those factors, because they take in similar amounts of money.

That is exactly what I am doing. Actually, I am just comparing within THE SAME COMPANY and only comparing Al Mar to other brands because you have an Al Mar and for some reason expect it to be better than a Manix of the same price.

When you consider a company that makes knives that average far below that price point, then you will see a difference in quality. I wasn't expecting the SERE to have any better QC than my Benchmade, yet it is more expensive. I was expecting it to have nearly equal QC (which it obviously does not).

Al Mar's QC is as good as BMs. Your knife is not typical.

It doesn't have as nice a grind as my S&W, but the overall F&F is far above it, but you claim it shouldn't be.

Actually, I claim no such thing. Please stop lying.

Yeah certain things about the knife are absolutely great. But there are some QC issues, and that is a FACT (I received these "issues"). No I did not expect perfection, but I expected a level of quality higher than what was given to me. Yeah, I expect better quality from a $130 knife than a $50 one from a cheaper company. And yeah I expect it to be a bit different from other similar companies.

Who is talking about a "cheaper company"???

I'm not going to continue arguing with you, I think I'm right, you think you're right, that's probably not going to change. I'll stick to what I think, and you stick to yours. I posted this topic to share my experience with Al Mar, not to argue about how quality control is or isn't a variable between different production companies.

Actually, I know I am right. And I also know that you would agree with me if you would just take a moment to actually read my posts. I am not saying quality control isn't a variable between companies. The fact that you would say such a thing proves that you have no flipping idea what I am talking about.

Let me explain one last time:

A lot of people say things like "I find this flaw unacceptable in a $130 knife". Now, by itself that statement is not ignorant, however, I believe that the person is implying that a given flaw is not acceptable in a $130 knife, but it would be in a less expensive one (say, $50). Now, I am saying that such statements are largely ignorant because the returns you get when you upgrade from a $50 knife to a $130 knife are better materials. I am not saying a Benchmade shouldn't have better F&F than a Maxam. I am saying that some materials cost more than others, and when you move from a D'Allara to a Manix, or a Griptilian to a 710, you are paying for better materials and should not expect the F&F to improve as well- for that you would have to pay even more.

Now, how do I know I am right? That is easy. Spyderco's Native and Dodo are both made in the same factory. The Dodo costs twice as much because of the G-10, not because Spyderco puts more man hours of attention into every Dodo. This goes for any company. Hence, someone should not say a flaw is unacceptable in a Dodo unless they would also feel it is unacceptable in a $40 Native. Why? Because they have the same QC. The difference is price is a matter of different materials, not better QC,

The same goes for Al Mar. Al Mar is not CRK. Al Mar makes cheaper knives than the SERE.

I am *NOT* saying that every company has the same QC. I am not saying that S&W has the same standards as Benchmade. I am not trying to compare across companies. I was making a general statement and only compared the SERE to other knives because you have a SERE and Al Mar's cheaper knives are very different than the SERE and generally not well known. I was using cheaper Spydercos and Benchmades to suppliment cheaper Al Mars. I feel I can do this because Spyderco and Benchmade both make knives in the same class as the SERE, and their cheaper knives serve as better examples than Al Mar's cheaper knives. Of course every brand will have different QC. Simply by having different workers, machines, and factories that is a given that shouldn't even have to be mentioned. It is a true no ****! But that doesn't change the fact that going from a Native to a Dodo is going from FRN to G-10, not from bad workers with poor machines to skilled workers in a high-end factory. No, the QC remains the same. Crossing companies with similar standards yields similar results as staying within a company because the QC of a Manix, 710, and SERE are pretty much the same. That really isn't my point, though. My point is that if you want to pay more and in return get better F&F than is found on $50 knives, then you have to pay even more than $130, because at $130 you are getting better materials, but not better QC. How do I know you aren't getting better QC? Because it's the same damn factory! This does not mean a $50 S&W has the same fit and finish as a $130 Al Mar, because they are not comparable. However, Spyderco, Benchmade, Al Mar, Buck, and Kershaw are. Are they the same? Of course not. But going from a Griptilian to a 710 is an improvement in materials not QC just as going from a Griptilian to a Bump is an improvement in materials, not QC. Yes the QC varies between companies, but not because you are paying more. Hypothetically, you could go from a Griptilian to a Bump and get INFERIOR QC. The price difference isn't there because one company pays attention and one doesn't, and it isn't because the more expensive models get more attention. It's materials. Is that the only reason? Of course not. There is never one *sole* reason for a price difference.

Okay, I am sorry for being harsh. I know that in my previous posts and ESPECIALLY in this one I have acted like a jerk and said things to purposely piss you off. That is my arguement style.

What we have here is a misunderstanding. I do feel you are at fault and that you replied in haste to my posts without taking the time to understand them. I feel my posts are not cryptic, or encoded and that you *SHOULD* have been able to understand them.

Whether the misunderstanding is your fault or mine, it is indeed a misunderstanding.

 

[Hair]

I realize that it's more expensive, but does it double the price (or raise the street price by $60-70?) of a knife to use G10 instead of FRN? I'm guessing no (my cheapo S&W has G10...), but I could be wrong.

You are wrong.

Like I mentioned (I think it was in my first post), G-10 requires a lot more hands-on work. Yes, it really does raise the price that much. I have given examples that can not be refuted. S30V Native and S30V Dodo (different lock, though). 154CM Griptilian and 154CM 710 (same lock). Why else do you think a 710 or Dodo costs more? Because Spyderco and Benchmade spend more time on the grinds of those knives for some reason? If they did, they would cost even more.

That doesn't mean every knife with G-10 has to cost at least the $40-50 that it raised the price within a certain brand. Why?

One reason is because some of the price increase with G-10 is simply because they can charge more. The increase does not have to be proportional to the materials cost- people like G-10 and will pay a premium for it.

And another reason is that G-10 raises the price on a knife largely based on the hands-on work, and a S&W with G-10 is not going to have the same level of finishing as a Spyderco with G-10.

Now before you tell me I am contradicting myself by saying G-10's cost is partially based on hands-on work, I already covered this in my first post. Yes the cost increase is due in part to the need for more hands-on work, but that work does not apply to the F&F on the rest of the knife.

And before you tell me I am contradicting myself by saying S&W and Spyderco do not have equal attention to detail- I never said they did. I said from the start that I am more weary of S&W's QC. But comparing S&W to Spyderco is not what I am doing. I am comparing Native to Dodo, and Griptilian to 710. I only compare across brands when using similar models and only to make things easier to understand (or so I thought). S&W does not have a SERE (price and quality) equivilant. Spyderco does.

Another way to explain.

You should not expect better F&F from a 710 than from a Grip. I think you agree.

You should not expect better F&F from a Dodo than from a Native. I think you agree.

I think you agree that the price increase in the above examples are due to materials improvements, not more attention to detail. Same factory, same workers.

So why have I given cross-brand examples? Logic.

The Grip and Native have similar QC. Not the same, but that doesn't matter. You'll see.

The 710 and Dodo have similar Qc. Not the same, but that doesn't matter. You'll see.

So how can I compare across brands? You should not expect a 710 to have better F&F than a Native just because it costs more. You should not expect a Dodo to have better F&F than a Grip just because it costs more.

Now, the F&F will vary, but that is because the companies vary, and not because you are buying better materials.

In other words, if BM does have better F&F than Spyderco (because each company is different), that remains true whether you are comparing a Grip (less money) to a Manix (more money), or a Native (less money) to a 710 (more money). Since the F&F of a Grip is the same as the F&F of a 710, buying a 710 instead of a Native will not get you a larger F&F improvement than buying a Grip instead of a Native would. Hence, the extra money you spend on a 710 goes to materials, not F&F. You could have got the same F&F improvement over the Native if you had got a Grip instead. What would you have missed? The materials of the 710.

See, logic. Neat, huh?

Again, me being a jerk. Sorry. But right is right.

 

[ehhh]

I realize what we are saying is very close, but you are saying a lot of different things, and I honestly don't care enough to read it all so thoroughly. Like I said, think what you think, and I'll do my own thing.

I think most is just a misunderstanding from both sides, because you are misinterpreting some of the things I am saying as well. I'm not going to bother going through every little detail and commenting, though.

"Another way to explain.

You should not expect better F&F from a 710 than from a Grip. I think you agree.

You should not expect better F&F from a Dodo than from a Native. I think you agree."
​

I agree.

"The Grip and Native have similar QC. Not the same, but that doesn't matter. You'll see.

The 710 and Dodo have similar Qc. Not the same, but that doesn't matter. You'll see.

So how can I compare across brands? You should not expect a 710 to have better F&F than a Native just because it costs more. You should not expect a Dodo to have better F&F than a Grip just because it costs more."​

I agree. I was not really comparing the F&F of the Al Mar to similarly priced brands though, so I'm not sure why you thought I was. I meant that because the knife is from a higher end company (which happens to cost more) it should be nicer than one from a lower end company (in this case I was referring to S&W).

"Now, the F&F will vary, but that is because the companies vary, and not because you are buying better materials."​

I agree. I never said because the materials are better, the finish should be as well, though. Another misunderstanding. I meant the company produces expensive (IMO) knives, and therefore the F&F should be fairly high as well. Making no comparison here. Just saying I feel it should have been better than what I got. You can take a look at the picture to decide for yourself if it is an acceptable flaw or not. To me, it is not, but I don't want to go through their customer service again.

"Here is what you don't seem to be able to get: Al Mar is not Chris Reeve, they are Spyderco. They are Kershaw. They are Benchmade. I don't know how you got it into your head that Al Mar was supposed to be a "higher pricepoint" than Spyderco, but they aren't.

And again, I am talking about knives in general, not your SERE."​

Here is what you don't seem to be able to get: I was only making a comparison between similar knives (both VG-10, similar size, different handle materials, both from good companies) and showing a huge price difference for just handle materials. I was not directly comparing the two, but trying to show that materials don't seem to be the only factor, since I don't believe G10 should increase the price by that much. I wasn't saying AMK should have better F&F than Spyderco, I was only trying to say that there is more to it than just materials. I was led to believe that you meant ONLY material and quantity of material decided cost. Now that you say cost of machining, yes I agree. Machining is all part of the F&F (how precise the machines are, how well maintained, etc). I still don't think G10 should raise the price that much though (this is my opinion, it obviously does raise the price, but I feel it is an unreasonable amount if it truly is 60-70 extra if you only consider materials and not cost of machining, which I initially thought you discounted).

"In other words, if BM does have better F&F than Spyderco (because each company is different), that remains true whether you are comparing a Grip (less money) to a Manix (more money), or a Native (less money) to a 710 (more money). Since the F&F of a Grip is the same as the F&F of a 710, buying a 710 instead of a Native will not get you a larger F&F improvement than buying a Grip instead of a Native would. Hence, the extra money you spend on a 710 goes to materials, not F&F. You could have got the same F&F improvement over the Native if you had got a Grip instead. What would you have missed? The materials of the 710."​

I agree.The problem is that you are telling me that F&F will be the same for a $50 knife and $130 knife from the same company, or similar companies (and I agree). However, I did not compare the knife to a knife from a similar company, and I'm not comparing two similar knives. S&W makes much cheaper knives and do not even specialize in knife making. Yes I understand F&F is different across brands, yet very close at a given price level (my 710 and SERE are close overall). I do expect the F&F of any high end brand to be better than that of a low end brand (i.e. BM vs S&W) when it comes to knives in general.

Like I said, my standards are high for these kinds of things. No I don't expect Al Mar to have better finishing than their direct competitors, but I don't expect to get a knife with grind problems like the two I've encountered (I wouldn't want a BM, Spydie, etc to have these problems either, but I would let my $50 Ka-Bar slide). Your standards may be different, and you let higher end production companies slide with less than excellent F&F, but I don't.

I fail to see how this is a fault of mine, and I see no reason for pointing fingers. But if we must, I feel your first post was a little off-topic.
I've had quite enough of this debate, we are just repeating things we agree on and misunderstanding each other, and it is rather irritating.

No hard feelings, I think we are in agreement for all but one or two points, but fail to fully understand each others long boring posts. I'd rather not go through everything to correct the misunderstandings either.

 

[TorzJohnson]

I wonder if there's a problem cropping up recently with Al Mar's (or I should say, the Japanese factory). Are they still stamped "Moki"? The first ones were stamped "Seki" IIRC, which I take to mean the city of manufacture, not the actual factory name.

Then the next ones were stamped "Moki" at which point some people felt there was a loss of QC - however, I had a Moki one which was as near to flawless as any knife I had seen up to that point. Later I got a Shrike, also Moki, which was a couple of degrees more perfect than the SERE. It's actually quite impressive how perfect it is. I'd be interested to know if they are still made at the Moki factory.

BTW, I don't know if my Blade Tech pro hunter lite (also stamped Seki) has anything to do with the factory that made Al Mars, but that $50 knife has an absolutely perfectly ground blade.

 

[ehhh]

I'd be interested to know if they are still made at the Moki factory.

Yes, the blade is stamped Moki/Japan.

 

[beefangusbeef]

Does the grind in any way affect the knife from doing what it was designed to do? I don't really think it was designed to sit in a glass case and be admired. It's certainly not the most attractive looking thing out there.

 

[ehhh]

Does the grind in any way affect the knife from doing what it was designed to do? I don't really think it was designed to sit in a glass case and be admired. It's certainly not the most attractive looking thing out there.

I seriously doubt it would affect anything very much. Possibly tip strength, but I don't really plan on prying or anything and I doubt it would affect it by very much, if any. I bought it as a user, so I am keeping it, but I do think the knife is an attractive one (personal taste) and I would have liked it more if it looked like it should. I weighed the $5 shipping and 2 week turnaround against being content with my purchase, and I shipped it in. That's another reason I might settle for a flaw on a cheaper knife; it just might not be worth it to me to send a cheaper one in to be fixed/replaced.

At this price point, I feel I should be able to send it back for such a flaw and have it corrected or replaced without having to go through crappy customer service like theirs. Again, their customer service is what really ticked me off.

 

[beefangusbeef]

Beauty is relative, but like I said I don't think asthetics are the main reason for the knife being the way it is. They should have replaced it unless they admit that problems like that are allowable or within their tolerances which they are obviously not.

 

[brewthunda]

I think you just got unlikely twice with your Sere.

I own the following Al Mar's:

Hawk - black pearl
Falcon - ivory micarta (c. 1980's)
Osprey - jigged bone
SLB
Shrike
Auto Eagle
8" Chef Knife
4" Paring Knife

I've given the following Al Mar's as gifts:

Hawk - black pearl
Hawk - jigged bone
Osprey - black pearl
Nomad
SLB
Eagle lightweight
8" chef

All of them are flawless. Great fit and finish. Perfect performance. In my opinion, Al Mar provides one of the best bangs for the buck out there today.

Don't mean to threadjack, but I thought this needed to be thrown in just to give readers a bit of perspective.

 

[ehhh]

I bet there are plenty of great ones out there, and I bet I was just unlucky. What bother's me most is their customer service, and based on my experience I would have to recommend that if you ever do get one with a flaw you can't live with, do yourself a favor and return it to the store.