Some advice for college

[GWashington1732]

It's around that time of year when high school juniors and seniors are starting to look at schools and I do have some advice as a graduating senior for incoming students and their parents. Pretty much all of the things that I either did wrong or see lots of others doing wrong. When making college decisions the important thing to consider is money, and where it's coming from. If you're like me, it all comes from loans and scholarships, which means big time debt that doesn't go away until it's paid, and remember, no one, anywhere is doing anything to make it easier to pay.

The speech I would like to give to a room full of incoming freshmen is this, "For your first year after graduating, you'll be lucky if you can find a job that doesn't involve cheeseburgers." In many cases this is the truth, too many people go to college assuming that they'll go to class like high school and be graduating with a great job and lots of money. In most cases, no, you're more likely going to be graduating with a great job waiting tables at Applebee's and $50,000 to $100,000+ in student loans to pay off. This leads to the first question you need to ask yourself, "Do I really need/want to go to college?" Ask yourself what job you want, and look at the way to get there, you may not need college. Also ask yourself what you want to do with your life, don't pick something you hate just because there's a chance of making a lot of money at it. If you hate math, don't go to be an engineer, because it's nothing but math, and even if you make lots and lots of money, you're still going to be unhappy and probably bad at your job. Parents, don't force college on your kids, sit down and help them make the decision, not all good careers require a college education, don't assume that college is the best choice for them.

If you decide that college is your best choice. Remember that you may get into your first program and realize that you hate it. I did this, I was in an animation program, hated it, and did a complete turn around to biology, and I love it. Just remember when switching majors that you're still going to have to pay for it and you should ask again what you really want to do.

Then you have the wonderful world of housing. On campus housing is a ripoff. You can expect $12,000+ for about 7 months of housing per year, about $6,000 per semester. This was a big mistake I made because all residential living departments are filled with people who... well lets just say I have nothing nice to say about them. Normally, this cost, is to live in a small cinder block room shared between two, three, or even four people, share a bathroom with 20-30 other people, and just hope they're not disgusting. Best case scenario, you get the deluxe single apartment room with a shared bathroom with only a few other people who you just hope aren't disgusting. Plus, you almost never get paired with someone similar to you unless you request them. I got in with one group that was tolerable, and that's because I put in several less than polite complaints with the college. I don't know how they choose who your roommates are, but I'm sure it involves cutting the head off a chicken. Besides this, dorms are always loud and smell like barf and urine. My suggestion would be to try to find someone you like to share an off campus apartment with if you're serious about your education because it will likely be cheaper and cleaner. If you're only going to college to waste money and get plastered, dorms are just the thing for you.

I've got more but I'm having a brain fart, I'll try to remember for later.

 

[Matt Markell]

Subscribed as this is very applicable to me right now. Thanks for writing this up.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

College has become more business than education. They've added so many worthless degrees, so that everyone can attend, since America has bought into the idea that you have no chance of making it without going to college.

For some, college is a great idea. For some, it will really just saddle them with debt and put them into their careers later in life.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I think I heard it put best: College is a great experience, but you'll learn most of your job in the real world. From dishwashers to doctors, I guess this holds true. I would prefer that doctors know a little bit before their residency...

 

[NateReed]

I'm a sophomore in college. I think my biggest mistake was applying to only 2 colleges. I got into both, one a large UC (Fresno). I hate warm temperatures so that was out. My other was a relatively small private university. Pricey, but an excellent school and close enough to home where I wouldn't have to live with weird people and share bathrooms, plus I get home-cooked meals every night. Despite my great school I am moving on out of California. Things have gotten really bad here lately regarding a few laws. I thought I could stick it out until grad school, but I couldn't. I'll be moving to Wyoming and going to school there in August. Moral of the story: I spent $70,000 on an AA degree

 

[Gollnick]

The critical decisions are money (as mentioned above), but also your choices of school and major.

I know what you've been told all of your life: pursue your passion; you can be and do whatever you want to. And that's great; it fits on a Hallmark card. But when it comes time to invest $100,000 and four years of your life, most of us have to temper that with some common sense. This tempering is required by two facts: First, most of us are not independently wealthy such that $100,000 (or a lot more) isn't a very significant amount of money for us. Furthermore, that lack of an independent fortune means that most of us will be depending for the rest of our lives on what we do with those $100,000+ dollars and those four years. And, second, despite what is often preached to children today, the fact is that most of us are not exceptionally-talented. Only a handful of people win Nobel Prizes per-year; your chances of being one of them are quite small.

There are jobs out there for new-college-graduates... just more in some fields than others.

If you choose to major in Zoroastrian Literary History, ok... but just be aware that there are about three jobs per-year that open up in that field world-wide. And the people hiring for those three jobs know that even better than you do, so they allow themselves to be very, very selective. To land one of the three jobs available, you will have to make yourself one of the top three graduates in that field that year... in the whole world. This is exactly equivalent to standing on the prize stand at the olympics, three medals for the top three people in the field in the entire world. The rest of the graduates in that field end up behind the counter at McDonalds and will eventually have to figure out how to fund going back to school for a degree in something like business administration.

Whether or not you can land one of those three openings depends as much on your school as on you. Therefore, as you select your school, think much less about the amenities of the campus, how far away it is from home, or the student life experience. Focus on the school's reputation in the field and its ties to industry. Focus on its placement assistance and, especially, its historical results in placement. Those factors will ultimately be much much more important to you than how nice the dorm rooms are.

But, of course, even the best-reputed school with the best placement office can't get you over the fact that there are only three openings per-year in Zoroastrian Literary History. Unless you are absolutely certain -- and willing to make a $100,000+ and four-year bet on it -- that you can make yourself one of the top three people in that field, then you really do need to re-think your major, do some of that tempering with common sense that I spoke about. So you're interested in Zoroastrian Literary History? Got "a passion" for it? Great. Everyone should have a hobby. But not everyone gets to make his hobby into his profession. Consider, instead, a degree in International Business with emphasis on the Persian Gulf region. This field has a lot more job opportunities per-year and it will use and feed that interest of yours in a peripheral way. Job in that field is likely to involve travel into that region where you can explore that interest a bit in your off-time.

Finally, you must understand that not all bachelor degrees are intended as "terminal degrees." Some of these are obvious; pre-med is a good example. There is no job for that degree. That degree doesn't even qualify you to be a nurse or a medical technician. That degree has one -- and only one -- purpose: to get you into medical school so that you can spend four or five more years studying (with accompanying tuition bills, of course) for an MD. (Want to go to medical school and become a doctor? Great; that's an admirable goal. But, consider doing your bachelor's in biochemistry; it's just as good as a ticket to medical school, but if you can't end up in med school, a biochem degree has some value itself.) Many other non-terminal bachelor degrees aren't so obvious. Interdisciplinary Studies is a good example. There is no job for that degree; it is purely an academic credential to get you into a graduate program. If you take one of these programs and, for whatever reason, are not able or willing to go on to graduate school, you are stuck with nothing but four-years of tuition bills because your chosen bachelor's degree is not a terminal degree.

Select your major and your school with an eye toward what will happen to you at the end of your bachelor's degree. Unless you are independently-wealthy or truly are mega-talented, you have to be sure that the $100,000+ and four-year investment will have some value for you at the end of the bachelor program.

 

[wouldestous]

twenty-five years ago a professor told our class that 'an education is probly the one thing that americans are willing to pay for and not get'. so dont skip class.
when you are in class do your best to stay awake and pay attention. (of course its hard sometimes. shut up and do it; its good practice for having a job, performing well and getting promotions).
when you study find someone who is doing better than you are and try to study with them. they will hopefully pull you up.
yes, of course you can drink and have sex and play frisbee golf or whatever you kids do these days. but as my uncle put it, 'do well and have fun. in that order.'

my dad started in a 2-year college near where he is from before transferring to a big school farther away. look into that; its cheaper and paradoxically you can often get a better 'core curriculum' education than in one of those giant state schools.

 

[GWashington1732]

my dad started in a 2-year college near where he is from before transferring to a big school farther away. look into that; its cheaper and paradoxically you can often get a better 'core curriculum' education than in one of those giant state schools.

There it is, I was hoping someone would say something to remind me.

I started out in a private university, in the animation program, this was a mistake for so many reasons. Well, first, they lied to me about the major, several times, that kind of sucked. But, I didn't properly research the school before choosing to go there and found out that it was a pretty bad school with a worse reputation, so don't believe the school's BS, do your homework. After leaving that place, I enrolled in a 2 year math/science program at a community college (actually, I got held up and it took 5 semesters for me, but whatever), guess how much I paid, $0.00 for tuition, a couple hundred per semester for books and gas, that's about it. I had a scholarship from high school that covered full tuition at any NJ community college. That was my good decision following my bad decision, had I waited, I would be more in debt than I am, because the scholarship was only good for the first year after high school. Community college is good for a lot of things, Bio-101 is the same at community college as it is pretty much anywhere else, as long as the school is accredited, you're coursework there is just as valid as your coursework at a $50,000/year school, and most bigger schools will accept those credits. You know what they call the doctor who went to community college?

As a short recommendation don't listen to your high school guidance counselor. They like to plug college on everyone, I've known people who failed in high school or even dropped out, trying to go to college. Know what happens? They fail and drop out of college, sometimes multiple times.

 

[cncpro11]

My oldest son is going to a local private college and living at home rent free.

By doing this, he is able to work part time and save all of his money. He will have enough saved up to pay next years tuition in full.

He should only have about $20K in loans to pay off if any, and hopefully he gets a good paying job when he graduates because the free ride won't last long after.

Edit: GW, you make some really valid points in this thread.

 

[NateReed]

There it is, I was hoping someone would say something to remind me.

I started out in a private university, in the animation program, this was a mistake for so many reasons. Well, first, they lied to me about the major, several times, that kind of sucked. But, I didn't properly research the school before choosing to go there and found out that it was a pretty bad school with a worse reputation, so don't believe the school's BS, do your homework. After leaving that place, I enrolled in a 2 year math/science program at a community college (actually, I got held up and it took 5 semesters for me, but whatever), guess how much I paid, $0.00 for tuition, a couple hundred per semester for books and gas, that's about it. I had a scholarship from high school that covered full tuition at any NJ community college. That was my good decision following my bad decision, had I waited, I would be more in debt than I am, because the scholarship was only good for the first year after high school. Community college is good for a lot of things, Bio-101 is the same at community college as it is pretty much anywhere else, as long as the school is accredited, you're coursework there is just as valid as your coursework at a $50,000/year school, and most bigger schools will accept those credits. You know what they call the doctor who went to community college?

As a short recommendation don't listen to your high school guidance counselor. They like to plug college on everyone, I've known people who failed in high school or even dropped out, trying to go to college. Know what happens? They fail and drop out of college, sometimes multiple times.

What pushed me towards the private university I started at rather than a CC is a couple things. This university, unlike yours unfortunately, has a really good reputation. That and all the CCs in my area are overbooked and I probably wouldn't have been able to get good classes in a decent timeframe

 

[Josh Carrasquillo]

As a short recommendation don't listen to your high school guidance counselor. They like to plug college on everyone, I've known people who failed in high school or even dropped out, trying to go to college. Know what happens? They fail and drop out of college, sometimes multiple times.[/QUOTE]


Failing or dropping out of high school does not preclude success in college. My first piece of advice to those currently in high school that are considering college is this. College is nothing at all like high school. And you are almost certainly not ready for college right out of high school. I highly recommend getting a job, an apartment and moving out on your own. Work some entry level jobs and see if there is anything you like. Do this for a couple years, in order to stay gainfully employed you will develop a work ethic. This work ethic will serve you well if you do decide that college is right. Second, pay for college yourself. Nothing motivates you to attend class like the knowledge that you are paying to be there.

 

[SurpriseGoat]

There is some VERY good advice in this thread. I truly hope it helps even just one person out. College simply uses a fear based business model. If you don't use their product you and your life will be sub par. I can easily say that for fully 50% of friends and family with a degree, they didn't need it to get their current job, or are in a job unrelated to there field of study. But all have massive debt.

But, for the other 50%, college was necessary. But those people are teachers, business managers, and a professor. The important thing to remember is that just wanting a certain job does not mean that a person is ready to really work and sacrifice for that goal. If you have doubts then maybe its not for you!

Nathan

 

[sintro]

My older brother and his friend went for Management of computer systems at Whitewater and in their junior year they both got an internship at WE. They both graduated in december and now have 55k+ a year jobs working at WE. It all goes to show the major is important, don't get some Religious Studies major! Meanwhile, I have an old friend that got some graphic design degree(something like that) and they are working at the YMCA...

Also, try to go to a public school. This girl I know is going for a doctorate in the physical therapy field at caroll, and it's pretty expensive. She'll have well over 100k in debt once she's done! Sure it'll be pretty easy to pay that off with a job in super demand physical therapy, but having all that debt has gotta suck.

My metals and manufacturing teacher also recommends to go to WCTC and not all those fancy tech schools, he's in his 30's and still paying off his learning debt.

 

[Gollnick]

I can easily say that for fully 50% of friends and family with a degree, they didn't need it to get their current job, or are in a job unrelated to there field of study. But all have massive debt.

But, for the other 50%, college was necessary. But those people are teachers, business managers, and a professor.

Bill Gates dropped out of college. So did Steve Jobs. You can certainly find examples of people who have done extremely well by any measure without a college degree. But these are "the exceptions that prove the rule." Statistically, you will have less unemployed time, earn higher salaries, and retire wealthier if you get a college degree. Here is what the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (which "has no horse in this race") says:

The salary difference between a high school diploma and a bachelor's degree is, on average 164%. And that's the average. Some majors will double (or even triple) that difference.

Furthermore, while we hear stories about people with college degrees who can't find jobs, the statistic is that last year you were about twice as likely to be unemployed if all had was a high school diploma vs. a bachelor's degree. The reason why we don't see stories in the popular media about high school graduates who are unemployed is that this is not considered unusual; it doesn't "make the news."

College makes financial sense and can pay off in the long run. But it is like any major purchase you make, a car, a house, etc. You need to approach it as an investment and you need to "do your homework" before making your decisions.




(By the way, you may notice those very attractive bars labeled "Professional Degree." What's that? Medical Doctors, Pharmacists, Lawyers, and Veterinarians. Those are nice bars to be on... if you can get there.)

 

[Gollnick]

These numbers are a bit old now, but you can see how you will even live longer, statistically, with more education.

 

[texas gun person]

Best thing I did for college? Go to a community college for two years. Easier, cheaper, friendlier atmosphere. I had loads of friends who went to a university to begin with... And got a shock to learn that for once in their life, school was actually hard! While they were back home and at the same community college I was at trying to salvage their GPA, I had near a 4.0 (of course i knew people who flunked out of community college too) and got into the university I want to go to with no trouble for the last two years.

 

[gregorio]

Another vote for going to community college; I did three years there. Going to community college will in no way hold you back from getting into a good school; in fact if you have a good track record there Universities look favorably on that.

Another tidbit of info for those inclined to graduate school is that majors like chemistry, materials science, EE, physics, etc. are full rides and then some. A bit tough to get in; and usually you have to be signing up for the PhD. If you say you want only a masters they very likely won't consider you. In my program a masters was called the conciliation prize.

And for lordies sake remember you WILL have to pay your student loans back.

 

[Bob W]

Just pointing out a caveat of junior college...

Make sure your credits will transfer! That means knowing what school you will transfer into in two years, and coordinate with a counselor there to get your class credits approved before you take them.

Sure, going to junior college is cheaper than a real university. But if you end up going to college for an extra semester or extra year because your community college credits wouldn't transfer, you've lost much more than the money you saved.

 

[Bob W]

I hear some people say that off-campus housing is cheaper than dorms. Do your math and other research carefully!

Off-campus housing in college towns is frequently unsafe, run down, and very expensive. And if you live far away from campus, add the cost of a reliable car, insurance, and fuel to the calculations. Or the cost of public transport, if available.

Don't forget to add utilities, groceries, and odds-and ends household items like toilet paper and cleaning supplies.

Maybe off-campus housing ends up being cheaper at some college towns, but don't assume that it always is.

 

[not2sharp]

...Select your major and your school with an eye toward what will happen to you at the end of your bachelor's degree. Unless you are independently-wealthy or truly are mega-talented, you have to be sure that the $100,000+ and four-year investment will have some value for you at the end of the bachelor program.

That is a pretty tall order for anyone, especially a 17-year-old. If you can predict that outcome, in the present market, you should skip college and use the $100k as seed money for your own business.

n2s