Some Thoughts on the Military, Calypso Jr

[kel_aa]

I would like to share some thoughts about the Spyderco Military and Calypso Jr I acquired over the past week. Yes, I know I'm quite a few years late to the party.

Two and half years ago I set out to a store to acquire a Spyderco Military. They didn't have one in stock, but showed me a slightly used Benchmade 800 AFCK in ATS-34 instead. It was so gorgeous and smooth so I bought that. Well, now with my tastes more refined, I guess still sought out the Military, and have just recently purchased one. Maybe it was fate.

I have not been able to find a Caly Jr here in Canada, so I jumped on a trade from the US. It is an used VG-10 grey FRN sprint-run from several years ago (2001?).

The Caly Jr matches my tastes and needs fairly well. I like high cutting ability. I use an Opinel 9 quite often, but am also interested in things that open one-handed, lock by itelf, are easy to clean, and just darn fun. The flat grind of the Caly Jr makes cutting something enjoyable. It is very light at 1.7 oz. The one piece plastic handle construction makes it easy to "go all in" when cutting foods as it is relatively easy to clean and maintain. The choil, although reducing the cutting edge length, increases the handling of the blade. Asthetically, I like the more subdued hump as well as the drop point (as opposed to the straight spine of the Delica). The grey colour is also a good diversion from the usual black.

The inverse fish-scale pattern on the handles I don't like. It is a little sharp on the skin, while not being terribly grippy. Additionally, in the grooves crud tend to accumulate. I like the other Spyderco patterns better. There are 3 steel-lined holes on each side of the scale for an ambidex clip for tip down carry. I don't really like clips for knives that go in side pant pockets anymore. I just drop them in the pocket (not much more comfortable, but less obvious). So the clip is removed, and the 6 holes remain to gather crud and possbily corrode. I feel that one of the practical advantages of FRN lockbacks is it's ease of cleaning (just rinse it out, and swing it around a little to get the water out). My opinion is that additional holes and metal parts such as these clip screw recievers and liners in the new Delica/Endura take away some of this advantage.

Overall, I am much happier with this thing than with a Delica: flat grind, drop point, less hump. Oh, this one doesn't have bladeplay!

The Military, well, although I am well accustomed to my AFCK, it feels huge. It is definately wider due to the hump, as well as the handles wider. I rather like the more aggressive texture of the Military handles. Quite a few of the scratches on my AFCK are from dropping it on concrete, asphalt... The blade is held tightly, unflickable for now (but Spydie drops nicely). I'm not sure if this was for the Canadian customs or it is the usual condition. I'll not going to play with the pivot for now. I would have to say the handle is slightly more comfortable than the AFCK, possibly because it is wider. I am also glad Spyderco removed the MILITARY logo on the blade. I so far don't have a problem remembering what model knife I bought.

The edge came very sharp, shaving throughout its length, better than what I have put on the ATS-34 of the AFCK. The flat grind is lovely, although the edge thickness was a little more than I expected or need (still about 1/2 of that of the AFCK). I really didn't think I need 4mm stock, but the blade is only that thickness behind the hole, tapering off nicely towards the tip (But I still don't need 4mm of stock for what I will likely use the knife for). The liner lock contact area hasn't been high. I can see tang scratched about 2 mm through its thickness (of the tang), but only 1.5-1.7 mm of its width. I'll be watching it develope.

To be honest, the AFCK, although it is gorgeous and so smooth on the opening (flicking with just a rotation of the wrist), it is quite incompetent in cutting. After a factory repair, Benchmade put a >20 edge per side after removing quite a bit of material. I have taken it down to 13/14 degrees, but still not happy with its performance and it is still a pain in the butt to sharpen. I guess it is just too "tactical." Although the AFCK carries much better, Military is more what of what I need in the cutting department.

I guess I've found the two Spydercos that really appeal to me.

A picture of an Opinel 9, 800 AFCK, Military, and Caly Jr:

The looker, but not doer:

 

[allenC]

Thanks for giving us your thoughts on the knives.
And thanks for the nice pictures too.:thumbup:

 

[Gryffin]

Yes, I know I'm quite a few years late to the party.

Nah, you're just "fashionably late"!

Overall, I am much happier with this thing than with a Delica: flat grind, drop point, less hump.

When I got my Caly, the first thought that popped into my head is, "this is the Delica, with fifteen years worth of refinement." :thumbup:

 

[orthogonal1]

I fully agree that the Military is a better cutter than the 800, stock or reprofiled edge.

Appreciatte the "thoughts."

Great picts, too.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So the clip is removed, and the 6 holes remain to gather crud and possbily corrode.

Reeve offers (or did anyway) plates which filled the clip holes. Spyderco could offer something similar if there is a demand. They could also be in various patterns/colors allowing user customizing. On the smaller and more precise knives like the Calypso Jr. I think you can make an arguement for a smoother finish as they are generally used for lighter work.

After a factory repair, Benchmade put a >20 edge per side after removing quite a bit of material.

Write "do not resharpen" on both sides of the edge with permanent marker.

I have taken it down to 13/14 degrees, but still not happy with its performance and it is still a pain in the butt to sharpen.

When dropping the primary edge grind down so it gets wider ease of sharpening takes a dive unless you really cut it back and micro-bevel. With that knife the primary grind is too low and shallow to compete with the Military. You need to either flatten the primary or hollow it out and reduce the edge thickness. You could flatten it in about 15-30 minutes on a decent stone with a *lot* of effort, or about 1-2 minutes on a belt sander. Once the edge is 0.005" thick it will sharpen easily and cut fairly well.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

I think I may fill in the holes with superglue, but at the cost of removing the option of using the clip at a later time.

Write "do not resharpen" on both sides of the edge with permanent marker.

Yeah, if I need to again I think I'll cover up the blade with masking tape and write that on the tape.

I think the AFCK suffers from too much design trying to make it marketable. You really are not sure what it is supposed to do. It has a pretty fragile tip like the Military. The 3.5mm stock is thinner than the Military, but the grind is thicker throughout. Benchmade put a steel that was pretty hot at the time, but it really doesn't do well here. The titanium liners makes the handle worry proof in terms of corrosion, but the ATS is not terribly corrosion resistant, and not helped by the rough finish throughout the tang.

It's a great knife to be walking the lawn and see some a little spot of grass that you missed with the mower, flick the knife open, trim the grass... but its that all it's good for? Okay, then it's a self-defense knife. But how on earth did a self-defense knife get rated to be one of the best folding survival knives?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It has a pretty fragile tip like the Military. The 3.5mm stock is thinner than the Military, but the grind is thicker throughout.

Sabre grinds really appeal to some visually and they are a lot cheaper to make, less steel stock and less grinding. The high stock thickness on most folding knives is often just for user visual preference, if you do heavy prying through that region it tends to effect the pivot readily and thus there is little functional use to the thickness. It appears to be stronger but you are increasing strength not at the actual weak point. In general you are always better served with tapered thicker steel, aside from odd issues like clamping on flats to sharpen with jigs. Not everyone buys for performance though and the end goal of Benchmade is obviously to sell the knife.

Benchmade put a steel that was pretty hot at the time, but it really doesn't do well here. The titanium liners makes the handle worry proof in terms of corrosion, but the ATS is not terribly corrosion resistant, and not helped by the rough finish throughout the tang.

In general the fad market for steels is really strong and once a steel gets a common "perception" as being superior it tends to sweep through the industry ignoring tasks/scope of work because of the propoganda and hype which gives the impression that this isn't an issue.

... get rated to be one of the best folding survival knives?

People pick up a Sebenza now and can't fathom the reputation but ten years ago it was very different in relative standing. Batoning on a knife was crazy and extreme abuse used to promote extreme toughness and people do it to 1/16" stainless steel Mora's and even folding knives. It would have been interesting to read the responces to your commentary on the AFCK had it been made in 1998. Similar to the Sebenza it developed its reputation based on a very different, and specifically much weaker, competition pool.

-Cliff

 

[Joe-Dirt]

Nice review. Thanks! :thumbup:

I have a Paramilitary and I love it. It's like the little brother to the Military.

 

[DGG]

kelaa

Good review and pictures.

If you want to dump your AFCK, PM me. I'm sure that I can get it very sharp.

I like the Military model, carbon fiber. I like the Wayne Goddard Spyderco also but you rarely hear about them.

 

[kel_aa]

Here was the 1996 article by Mr Chris Janowsky (who has passed away this year) that found the 800S AFCK to be the best surival folder.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263461

Specifically, the criteria for the survival folder were:

" Field dress both big and small game
" Quarter and butcher big and small game
" Gut and or fillet large and small fish
" Cut large diameter rope with a single slice
" Cut and carve hardwoods (Oak, Walnut, Hickory etc.) to improvise tools and shelters
" Drill holes in hardwood with the point
" Small enough to fit in your pocket
" Light weight (5 oz. or less)
" Strong enough to split firewood by pounding on it with another piece of wood.
" Hold an edge sharp enough to shave with
" Large enough for close quarter combat
" Lifetime guarantee

I can see all this being done with quite a few of the FRNs out there today.

-----------

As nice as the Military is in the cutting department, I can think of instances where the 1.5 oz or so it has over say an Endura 3 will make it less preferable.

But in general it is hard to see how it fits in the scheme of things (for us civilians). Say you are camping, and choosing being a SAK plus either a Kershaw Antelope Hunter (3.5 inch fixed blade=, $30) or a Military. The fixed blade with the possible exception of edge retention (Aus8 vs S30V) is generally superior. So is the Military is big box-dissassembler? A big melon cutter at the picnic? Oh, but it does make a nice bread slicer!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I can see all this being done with quite a few of the FRNs out there today.

Generally yes, however the Zytel folders were generally made from the "lower end" steels such as AUS-6 or similar. The perception of such steels being incapable of such use still exists today as well as the general viewpoint of Zytel in general being incapable of heavier use. In general much of such work as done by Janowsky and others usually has little actual benchmarks and thus it is difficult to judge the strength of the recommendation. Just what are the knives being compared to which makes them impressive. There is much more comparison work being done now than ten years ago but still there are many promotions which lack such work especially when makers are promoting their own work. For work to be meaningful you want at least one example of something which can't do the tasks.

The fixed blade with the possible exception of edge retention (Aus8 vs S30V) is generally superior.

You only carry folders if you can't carry a fixed blade, they are inferior in every other aspect and usually many to one. Comparing a Military vs SAK/Opinel you are usually arguing for more versatility due to longer blade length and higher weight and strength. This has to compete with the higher cutting ability of the Opinel and properly sharpened SAK and of course the tools of the SAK. The Military also has an advantage in cutting abrasive media and in other aspects such as grip retention an general durability plus ease of one handed opening, carry, etc. . I prefer it in the kitchen over a SAK for most things usually significantly though it loses to an Opinel unless a lot of acidic foods are cut.

-Cliff

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Kel_aa,

I'm pleased that you were able to find something made by Spyderco that works for you. As I remember, you've had difficulty in the past with Spyderco designs / quality.

The AFCK was designed by Chris Carraci as a linerlock version of the Spyderco Police Model. If you lay one on top of the other, you will see the influence. His primary focus for the design was self defense.

The Military was designed as a "2nd" knife to be carried by a soldier for cutting power when his "duty knife", which was used for digging and prying didn't cut well. Focus was as large a folder as is practical, high cutting performance, light weight for the size. G-10 is impervious to many chemicals and temperature extremes that FRN cannot tolerate.

sal

 

[kel_aa]

I understand the "inspiration" for the AFCK design. I guess it's not worse than some of the other knives in its class in terms of cutting ability. But it is still curious how people come to think it's a good utility or surivial folder (other than Mr Janowsky and to this day still).

A lot of the "survial" blades in general makes me think the only thing to survival is to have a blade with a lot of flat to crush garlic with.

G-10 is impervious to many chemicals and temperature extremes that FRN cannot tolerate.

I understand FRN is the the greatest in terms of thermal stability. But the chemical aspects I am curious about. I'm not sure if we can stand what FRN cannot stand. Something to think about foring labs next semester...

 

[orthogonal1]

The 800 series are fairly good utility designs.

The handle allows a secure hold in a variety of grips and it is long enough to get your hand around (the Military has these attributes, too). Also, the relatively deep finger channel, or whatever you call it, fixes your hand against sliding forward well on thrust movements (my biggest issue with the Military). To me, the handle is the best feature of the series.

The knives came with "good" steels. ATS34 (not my favorite), M2, and D2 (if we include the axis versions and, BTW, were there any 154CM versions?). A good steel stays sharper, longer, and allows reprofiling to a more acute edge for those of us who like a better slicer.

The 800 has a pretty reliable lock (as does the Military). Modern manufacturing (and regular exposure to "premium" knives) has led many to forget just what a blessing a reliable lock is.

The 800 is relatively small for its blade/handle. Again, comparing to the Military, it's thinner top to bottom and shorter (the 800, anyway, as the 805/806 is longer).

Just some thoughts, anyway.

 

[talonturbo]

I understand FRN is the the greatest in terms of thermal stability.

That's not what Sal said at all...

 

[Artfully Martial]

I haven't touched any chemical that affected G10 or FRN at all, that I can tell.

 

[kel_aa]

That's not what Sal said at all...

I was not aware of any restrictions on bringing new comments into a dicussion.

By thermal stability, what I meant was dimensional stability under changing temperatures. That is simply a property of the material, although I don't imagine it having a real effect on the overall application. I would also expect FRN to get more brittle when it gets really cold as well. But then so does steel.

The knives came with "good" steels. ATS34 (not my favorite), M2, and D2 (if we include the axis versions and, BTW, were there any 154CM versions?). A good steel stays sharper, longer, and allows reprofiling to a more acute edge for those of us who like a better slicer.

I am under the impression that at one point in time 154CM and M2 were the standard versions, then 154CM supplanted by D2.

To be sure, my 800 edge is probably thicker than many of yours, and as a whole the grind is decent. But it is still more than what it needs for utility or self-defense. If the grind were higher, it would run the problem of going through the whole, and as the AFCK lack the Military's hump and width, the blade would be relativelyl weak there. As the AFCK flicks so well (either the linerlock or an axis flick with the 806), it would be possible to omit the hole. I wonder if many maker or manufacture has marketed a pure flicker?

In the end, I guess I don't like the grind geometry functionally. I use the Opinel quite often as a table knife. It gets dulled on the plate, and occasionally it hits a plate or cup rim with a little force and it gets a nick. The damage gets taken off in seconds on a Sharpmaker, and the edge thinned out in under a minute when necessary. I would never dare using the AFCK as a table knife, as the time to repair would be immense in comparison.

It is my experience that the hump of Spydercos in general makes carrying a little more cumbersome (pressumably due to the extra width).

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Kel_aa,

We found FRN became brittle enough to crack when dropped on the ice at about 40 below 0 F.

We received some complaints from customers working in north Alaska.

Heat hasn't been a problem, at least not natural heat.

Unfortunatley, "flicking" a knife is not legal in most places. "Flick" knives are illegal in most countries and all over America.

This problem is especially difficult in Canada, where customs inspects for that feature.

Also, too easy to open can be a safety problem in the pocket or when dropped.

It's challenging to create a knife lock that meets the market's demands (easy open) and the legal demands (hard open) and still provides the saftey needed to avoid unwanted openings.

Knives like our ball bearing locks, and competitors, "easy openers" always push the line.

On the "humps" on our knives, (resulting from the trademark, and sometimes large, round hole), they are more popular generally than "non-humped" models. While being wider, they provide a thumb rest / quillion. Use your Military with gloves.

sal

 

[kel_aa]

-40F = -40C. That's cold. Even Stalin's Siberian political prisoners weren't required to work when it's -40.

From Madeleine Durand-Charre's La microstruture des acies et des fontes (Microstructure of Steels and Cast Irons) originally published in 2003 in French and translated by James H Davidson:

At that those temperatures the toughness appears to bottom out for most steels (these are low alloy carbon steels). But yes, I understand how the handle dropping on ice and then cracking is of concern.

 

[kel_aa]

I've been carrrying the Military now for almost two months now, and lately almost exlusively. I do like it. The factory edge lasted for quite a while. When I tried some bottle cutting with swings (no impressive results to speak of), the edge rolled a little, so I went to sharpen it. I discovered the inital edge to be about 12 degrees. So I sharpened it at 15 + deburring at higher angles. With one try it wasn't as sharp as the factory edge as before after deburring. I left it at that as it was still highly functional.

The clip-screw coating wore off really quickly, but the clip itself is still largely coated. The pivot is a little looser now, up to the point wehre it can be reliably thumb flicked. Still no wrist snap opening though, which as it is is not necessarily a bad thing. The only irksome thing is that while the texture of the scales allow for a nice grip, it does make hard to clean some types of crud from the surface without scrubbing.

It works pretty nice in the kitchen. One time I had to cut interior squares out of some 3/4 inch boards that had paper laminates with some white power filling. This was in the space between the ceiling and the next floor, about 2 and half feet of clearance, it not much from to apply downward push with the arm. So this was done mainly by pushing the point through, and then rocking the blade up and down to create the cuts. The pointy tip and the flat grind geometry was wonderful for this. All the lose powder and junk didn't foul the action of the knife as much I might have expected.

Several days ago I had to cut some electrical wire that was 7 parallel strands of 0.8-0.9mm copper. I only had the Military, and remembering the experience of my S30V Native cutting a coaxial cable and Cliff's advice thereafter, I didn't saw this time, only using strong pushes on supporting surface, and once with with pulling on the wire and pushing with the knife. Actually I wasn't even trying to push the knife through, only to damage the strands enough that they can be broken by bending. The place I was doing this wasn't well lit. When I examined the the edge later I was horrified. The greatest damage blew way past my 15 degree micro to about 20% of of the 12 degree edge. There are about four other places where it was damaged. I consider those near being acceptable, but the main chip is definately not. It'll require many many sharpenings to work it self out.

Later when I had a Rusksack I tried it again out of educational intent, this time under better lighting. The Rucksack had a relief ground from the factory profile (you can see it as a texture different from the flat and the bright edge), 15 degree edge, and 20 micro + deburring. The Rucksack was pushcutting paper the day before and also making magnesium shavings. No damage was visible.



I'm a bit upset that my fairly new Military has a large visible chip now and several noticable chips. It's not in terms of resale value or anything, I just don't like defect. I guess it's not a bright day for high carbide steels for me. Transverse toughness my butt. I guess now I learned to keep the Military away from metal things.