Some Thoughts on the Military, Calypso Jr

[kel_aa]

Oh, previous damages to the Military include a small nick when it accidentally touched a steel cable, and a light dent behind the tip when it cut through some chicken ligements and hit the plate underneath. Both are not outside of what I consider acceptable, although the nick from the cable doesn't speak very highly of the S30V over hard 440C ( nicked a BM 530 off a hex key).

 

[gud4u]

My own Military is pretty much off-topic, since it's 440V/S60V.

My only S30V folder is a Strider SMF, with 10 degree main bevels and 15 degree micro-bevels. Any micro-bevel angle less than 30 degrees is likely to produce micro-chipping when pointing hardwoods with high pressure (no metals, no impacts).

My suggestion for the Military S30v blade would be to hone the main bevels to get rid of the chips, and try 20 degree micro-bevels for better edge-strength. If the SAK could cut copper wire with blunter final edge taper, the S30V blade is likely to perform same task adequately (I know, more expensive steels should not require more obtuse final edge tapers, but reality creeps in).

My own experience indicates that more obtuse micro-bevels make very little difference is general slicing performance, but really dramatically contribute to greater edge strength.

 

[kel_aa]

Thanks for your advice Gud4u. I think I need to re-examine the one knife concept since I am not willing to live with this kind of damage. I've been lazy, thinking this nice knife is the only one that I'll need for EDC.

I used the SAK as I know it had a clean edge. My VG10 Caly Jr is in a dull phase right now, and the Aus8 Twitch going out on as part of a Canadian passaround. As for the ATS-34 AFCK, it shouldn't even be bothered for comparison.

It's really ironic that one expects a POS knife to fail, but I can beat it into metal until it's serrated from deformation and then sharpen it out quickly. But do a pushcut with a high end steel it and craps out on me with chipping issues.

 

[gud4u]

It's really ironic that one expects a POS knife to fail, but I can beat it into metal until it's serrated from deformation and then sharpen it out quickly. But do a pushcut with a high end steel it and craps out on me with chipping issues.

Too true! The implication is that an inexpensive SAK with a final edge taper of 40 to 50 degrees included offers the same performance as an expensive folder with exotic steel.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Did the Military snap to the side in the cutting? Did you notice any difference between the SAK and Military in how they felt when cutting through the wire.

Thanks for your advice Gud4u. I think I need to re-examine the one knife concept since I am not willing to live with this kind of damage.

I don't think that concept is flawed, but simply the steel which is chosen for such tasks should not be one which is optomized for wear on dies and other blunt metal forming objects.

My suggestion for the Military S30v blade would be to hone the main bevels to get rid of the chips, and try 20 degree micro-bevels for better edge-strength.

Considering the extent of the damage in the largest chip I don't see a micro-bevel preventing it, the damage is easily ten times as extensive. In general the more obtuse bevel doesn't need to be the full width of damage to prevent it because once the edge starts to go it is weakened massively, but in this case the failure looks like a much more gross issue and I would the action micro-bevel under the chip could even be free of damage.

I know, more expensive steels should not require more obtuse final edge tapers, but reality creeps in.

The idea that "superior" is a uniform property really needs to die. Materials can be very high in certain attributes and very low in others.

I guess it's not a bright day for high carbide steels for me.

Or more specifically stainless. Lots of high carbide steels are made to cut metals. What is ironic is the behavior given the promotion of the steel as setting some sort of extreme benchmark for toughness and of course the whole ostrich reaction to the problem whenever it is mentioned.

Given the nature of the Military I would pick a 420HC class steel as a superior material to S30V. What is ironic is that this type of decision is well known for fixed blades but for some reason the same decisions are absurd when suggested for folders.

Note for example how many makers will pick steels like L6 for fixed blades, even small fixed blades, over the high carbide steels like D2. This is exactly the same as picking 420HC, AUS-4A, 12C27m vs ATS-34/S30V for stainless.

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

It's really ironic that one expects a POS knife to fail, but I can beat it into metal until it's serrated from deformation and then sharpen it out quickly. But do a pushcut with a high end steel it and craps out on me with chipping issues.

Steel is always a matter of give and take. If you want good wear resistance, you have to give something up. In this case, you gave up toughness. It's all a matter of what you want to use the knife for. People on Bladeforums complain endlessly about the Victorinox steel, but it really does have its place. I carry my Military and ParaMilitary for normal cutting duties, and leave my SAK or multitool for the nasty stuff, that I would never subject my Military to. Victorinox steel isn't very wear resistant, but it doesn't chip easily, and is extraordinarily stainless.

Also remember the intended purpose of the Military's design. It was meant as a backup to a bayonet, not as a standalone solution. The Military gets the cutting chores, and the bayonet takes the beating. A suspect that for metal to metal contact, the bayonet would have faired much better.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The Military gets the cutting chores, and the bayonet takes the beating. A suspect that for metal to metal contact, the bayonet would have faired much better.

There is no need to reach for the bayonet as the SAK easily cut the wire. It would be hard to argue that a knife so designed and marketed should be beyond the ability to cut light wire, especially when it is so readily performed by a SAK.

Note as well this is a yield failure and there is no need to have low yield failures at high wear resistance. In fact both properties tend to increase at the same time. Ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363599

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364976

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

How light was the wire? I've had many knives chip when pushing through 3-strand household wiring. It was maybe 12 or 14 gauge. He mentions the diameter of the wire, but I have no frame of reference to determine its gauge for comparison.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It was light enough to be cut without damage by a Swiss Army knife with a 15/20 degree edge.

-Cliff

 

[Buzzbait]

I'd like to know the specifics of the wire, so I can attempt to repeat the test.

 

[Dog of War]

kel_aa - thanks for sharing your work, nice job. The VG-10 Caly Jr. is one of my favorite folders of all time.

The fact that you were cutting a fairly heavy stranded cable, clad in plastic - sounds like seven strands of 19 or 20 gauge copper, BTW, Buzzbait - could have subjected the edge to a lot of lateral stress. On cable like that, individual strands can easily shift and squirm around. You might want to see if your Mili chips cutting a single strand of copper, resting on a solid surface.

 

[The Mastiff]

I'd like to know why a wire cutter wasn't used. If you use the wrong tool for the job things likely won't work out like you want them too. In an emergency, I can see doing it, and if the knife breaks then oh well. In this case the Millie would have still lived to cut another day even after being used as the wrong tool for a job not intended.

As far as the SAK not chipping or rolling I'd bet a whole different method of cutting was used. More a pulling, with more force exerted by the hands pulling or stretching the wire.

More importantly, why didn't Kel use a wire cutter? There are even different types of wire cutters as there are different hardnesses of wires of the same guage.

What have we learned here today? Joe

 

[kel_aa]

I'll sharpen up the VG10 Caly Jr and try the same (no point in comparing a dull knife to a sharp one).

I'll repeat that I wasn't trying to cut through the individual strands, but only to cut a portion of their diameter so they can be broken with bending. But upon the reflection upon cutting say some of the wires and bending them to break it, the rest might work harden and thus present a tougher job on the knife.

Did the Military snap to the side in the cutting? Did you notice any difference between the SAK and Military in how they felt when cutting through the wire.

I did not notice a snap, and there didn't appear to be much difference. Just push until I thought I made enough of an cut in the strand(s). Bend until target strand(s) break, and repeat as necessary.

Or more specifically stainless. Lots of high carbide steels are made to cut metals.

But don't the stamping dies have square edges, and the cutter tools have large angles, 60+ degrees? Not exactly the same as a 24/30 degree total edge.

As far as the SAK not chipping or rolling I'd bet a whole different method of cutting was used. More a pulling, with more force exerted by the hands pulling or stretching the wire.

They were done the same way, supported on solid makeshift surfaces. When using the Miltiary the area wasn't well lit, however. The cut on the middle strand was made by pulling the wire/pushing the knife.

More importantly, why didn't Kel use a wire cutter?

Because it is not an occupational thing, only an occasional need to splice/cut/repair wires or to salvage/savenge equipment, as was the case here. I had a SAK Classic on me as well, but that doesn't offer much of an alternative for this job. I admitted to being "lazy" and not carrying another knife that is more expendable/repairable or a multi-tool.

You might want to see if your Mili chips cutting a single strand of copper, resting on a solid surface.

I'll do that.

------------------

About a more suitable steel

I have mixed feels on that. Prehaps the Military is at the price point and target base where it is less expendable and has less utility than a 40-60 dollar FRN. It's a shame as its blade geometry/shape, ergos, lock make it a nice package.

What I fancy is something like Aus8 (I suppose hard 420HC/440A/Aus4/6 is okay too), with replaceble blades that go for say 30-40 dollars. Then I would have no qualms about playing around and customizing the edge. If I sharpen away or just want clean bevels every two years or so, I just swap a new one in.

 

[kel_aa]

Okay, here is a shot of the said cable clipped with a multi-tool. All it took was a simple sqeeze. Some of the strands look thicker than others:

I sharpenend my VG 10 Caly Jr up at 15 degrees per side and repeated the sequence. There was no damage. I took out a strand and using a cast aluminum block as an base, push cut through the wire 4 times. Three of the times it snapped through, one time it gently separted. I tried the same thing with my Military 5 times and no damage was observed.

Since the damage the Military had some 40 passes on brown rod corners at 20 degrees in an effort to produce some new stronger edge, but it is still forming blurs at 15 degrees. I guess that speaks to the wear resistance of the steel. Anyways, the microbevel is bigger now, but the edge still appears to be 15 degrees. No damage this time. I carefully cut the whole cable again, and there was only very very slight indentation.

So the conclusion? No, this S30V doesn't chip cutting copper wire. I probably wasn't the using best technique at the time despite making an effort (probably due to the poor lighting). But it does appear that the steel is very unforgiving in terms of mistakes (staple, nail...). Is that a minus? You bet.

Thanks everyone who contributed either advice or critism as it helped me come to a better understanding of the situation.

 

[Buzzbait]

I just tried a little experiment of my own. I used my Spyderco Military, Spyderco Endura4, Benchmade 710HS with M2 steel, Gen4 Strider SNG, and Victorinox Hunstman as test subjects. The SNG, 710HS and Hunstman have a 30 degree included edge bevel. The Military and Endura are more like 25 degrees with a 30 degree micro-bevel. All ofthe knives were sharpened on Sharpmaker coarse hones, with just a few strokes on the fine hones.

I first tried 3 cuts through a computer power cable, at the same spot on the blade, using a plastic kitchen cutting board. This test revealed nothing. There was no damage to any of the blades, other than a slightly rolled edge on the Endura and the Huntsman.

I then moved up to a single soild core strand of standard household wiring, still in its individual casing. This was some tough stuff. Using my off hand to push on the spine, none of the knives were able to push through the strand. I used the same spot on each blade, that I had used on the previous test. I tried to keep my technique straight and true, but it was very difficult to do under the extreme pressure of the push. The SNG, 710HS and Military were unaffected by the test. The Huntsman suffered from a fair amount of edge roll. The Endura bombed out with a large chip missing from the blade, a little larger than the chip in kel_aa's Military.

In hindsight, the Endura was probbaly subjected to the worst torture. It was first blade tested on the solid core strand, and most likely was pushed a little harder and longer than the other blades.

 

[The Mastiff]

Excellent photography there Kel, especially with this last photo.

Kel, are you developing an overall favorite between the VG10 and S30V? This includes price, sharpening, edge holding, corrosion resistance, etc?

What about for a novice user?

Personally I like both but I'd like to see what conclusions you've drawn so far. Thanks, JL

 

[Cliff Stamp]

But don't the stamping dies have square edges, and the cutter tools have large angles, 60+ degrees?

Generally, but the same properties hold. If you take a hawksaw blade for example and draw the temper the teeth don't get "tougher" they actually break doing cutting which they handled with no damage full hard. Note the wire cutting in the above Alvin did with some very thin ground knives.

I probably wasn't the using best technique at the time despite making an effort (probably due to the poor lighting).

Steel is very inhomogenous, there are many states coexisting in hardened blades. It might be simply that the spot which fractured had a bunch of carbides strung together which formed a large fracture line. In general you tend to want to do these types of things a few times to compare mean results rather than one shots.

A point is made though about optimal technique, how many guys for whom this knife is made would cut the cable in the same manner and how many would simply rip the knife through it doubled. Awhile back I stopped to give a buy a boost and the cables he had were damaged so he had to cut the wire and reattach it. He didn't have a knife so I gave him a Kershaw Vapor which he just yanked through the wire, the recurve worked well.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

Great stuff, kel_aa. Looking at that cleanly cut end of cable - excellent photos, BTW, as others have said - I can see how there could be a lot of inconsistent lateral stress on a blade when cutting.

I won't suggest you try cutting the cable with your Caly Jr., simply because the Caly IMO clearly seems intended for different work than that. However my experience with Spyderco's VG-10 has been just terrific; S30V I can't say the same.

Your work here invites a lot of thought on what our EDC's should be designed, ground and sharpened to do. It's always a tough call, same as when choosing a vehicle or other tools: do we plan for those worst case scenarios, or optimize based upon our primary use and general habits? Obviously it's a lot easier to carry two knives than it is to tow a Hummer around with a Corolla. Still it's a good exercise in preparedness, just thinking this through and taking a critical look at how we use our knives.

 

[kel_aa]

Kel, are you developing an overall favorite between the VG10 and S30V? This includes price, sharpening, edge holding, corrosion resistance, etc?

I had a Delica 3 and Assist before, but the circumstances required that they be "donated" to Toronto's "finests." I really didn't get sharpen them than a few times between them. I think it is a solid material, but I had easier times getting Aus8 to be of any given sharpness. I wish I had used my 440A Ti-lite more to get an idea of its edge retention. I was shaving for about two or three weeks with each sharpening, but didn't much else with it. The S30V does seem superb in terms of edge holding. In the month and half (before this chipping issue) I only sharpened it twice. Once because it rolled during 500 ml water bottle chopping and the second time because it was getting too difficult to shave with on the go. So basically a little over 2 weeks per sharpening to maintain an excellent working edge for EDC?

Corrosion hasn't been a problem for me with any steel, outside a few specific cases-- rough tang area of AFCK in ATS-34; nail nick in SAK; Kershaw Chive in bead-blasted 420HC; mulit-tools, some bead-blasted parts. I cannot draw much from that, except I don't like bead-blasted or otherwise rough parts.

About the price vs steel, there really doesn't exist much choice from the manufactures to start with, and even less when you are in a limited consumer market such as Canada. From the most part I think you are just stuck with what the manufacture decides to use. I've bought a CRKT F-4 in 420J2 before and was upset it couldn't keep sharp between when the time I cut an envelope as a test and when I draw the knife from the plastic sheath the next day and do another test slice and find a loss in performance. The one other steel I didn't like much was the Chive. But in general I take what I get, it doesn't bother me much.

So for a novice user, I think something like the Military/Manix/ or some of the Benchmades... is too nice [which basically means too expensive] of a knife to learn on. I would say VG-10 is a more forgiving steel. But Spyderco does offers a nice entry level S30V in the form of the Native. I got an idea of the possible problem from using the Native. Without that previous experience, I would have been sawing at the darn cable and wondering why my Military turned into trainer.

The Huntsman suffered from a fair amount of edge roll.

Yeah, I get mixed responses from SAK's. Often it does roll, but this time the Rucksack didn't during either the magesium shaving or the wire cutting. I was surprised, as I had really thinned the edge too (but that is not really relevient since it never rolls that deep anyways). I just accept that it does what it wants to do. But if want to believe it has something to do with it, I did put this one in the refrigerator icebox.

I won't suggest you try cutting the cable with your Caly Jr., simply because the Caly IMO clearly seems intended for different work than that.

I dont' see why not. The Rucksack has an edge thinner in all respects (except it's microed at 20) than the Caly Jr. When I first pressed down on the Caly Jr I noticed a jump in the lock. I was afraid it was the same lock play problem as before, but realized it was me partially depressing the lock. I had noticed this before in the kitchen too. I guess it really does need the Boye detent.

---------------

I carried the Caly Jr and the Military around for a while, but found out that rather than the Caly Jr being a little more PC, there wasn't much of a need for it (outside of a plate knife, but since I don't eat out much I have acess to an Opinel and the Caly Jr readily at home). So now I'm working back the Caly Jr andthe Opinel back into the rotation, I could use a SAK too, but that'll make the Vic Classic redundent when I carry the SAK and lacking when I carry the other knives. Oh, what to do, what to do...

 

[thombrogan]

The 'problem' I've seen with high-carbon stainless (less so in AUS-8) is that it gives a courtesy chip when cutting any sort of metal. The other metal could be a 14 on the Rockwell C scale and the S30V/VG-10/440C/154CM will at least microchip. Even with that observation, it's good stuff.

Thanks for the review, kel_aa!