someone's trying to copy Jerry

Jeff,

No sadly it is very much debateable. So what you are saying is a BM would perform just as well thin slicing vegetables as professional chef's knife?

No, that was never said.

Or is it just "personal preference that chefs use what they do instead of a Busse? Like I said this is very much debateable because performance does have many variables.

Head to head performance tests of knives that are designed for similar tasks using controlled tests with duplicable levels of resistance, abrasion, etc… are not debatable. . . they are factual.

Sorry amigo, but a Busse or ANY other knife is not the best performer at ALL chores that knives are used for. If you believe that then you're fooling yourself.

That was never said.

Case closed...next taker?

You didn’t close any case, you simply danced around the ring and declared yourself the winner.
 
Sorry, thatmguy, just trying to use a little humor to lighten the mood...

You are right on, Eric. Design some MEASURABLE performance tests, and put knives head to head, and Busse knives do well. This is much harder to do than the usual head bobbing, "Yep, that's a good knife." Defining "good" is not at all obvious.


-- edited to avoid further flames.
 
Is this thread about Jeff or about the Fehrman Knives?

-SB (Hoping to keep this on track but dreading a flame war:( )
 
Good point, Sharpbits.

I have to say that I like BOTH Busse and TOPS designs of their knives, so I will look forward to seeing some actual pictures of these new knives.
 
Ok, lots of folks cut up vegetables in camp. This IS a knife chore. So, would you be willing to put your Busse up in a head to head test thin slicing vegetables and judge performance? What? You don't consider my vegetable test fair because it doesn't fit into the scope of your Busse?

Ok, will you put your Busse up in a head to head test with an RTAK in secondary jungle growth and see who wins? True performance testing. If not jungle growth lets try blackberry vines and/or Kudzu? Real world tests baby and I'm willing to bet the farm that the RTAK and MANY other blades will beat your Busse. You're the one always bragging about performance testing so put your money where your mouth is.

Now, if you want to test by YOUR standards of cutting concrete blocks and bend test then the Busee is going to win hands down. I admit that. You see, I'm willing to admit that not much beats a Busse on what it's great design is for, BUT I do know it will get it's ass smoked in performing and performance when it comes to other knife chores that folks do apply in the field. Your problem is your are so entrenched with the Busse-only mindset that you have never taken yourself into the realm of other possibilities.

Again, a Busse is no where close to a "do-all" wilderness knife, neither is the RTAK or anyone elses. It's just common sense.
 
Hey Jeff..

You know I was watching Martha Stewart the other day,, and I could have swore she was making Radish Roses with a Battle Mistress, but now I'm not so sure...:)

Theres no knife that will do everything 100%...

If you want to pry Taliban out of T42's then the Busse is the knife for you...

ttyle

Eric...
 
Originally posted by JeffRandall

Your problem is your are so entrenched with the Busse-only mindset that you have never taken yourself into the realm of other possibilities.
Click to expand...

Jeff,
I'm glad you know me so well as to determine what my problems are. You don't know me. I've owned and used numerous styles from many different manufacturers. I've chosen Busse because it can perform, and won't fail.

How do you propose we proceed with a real world challenge? What criteria? How will we know the winner? What other tests besides cutting vegetables, (last I checked my Busse Satin Jack or Badger Attack 3 will handle that)? I'm interested in your answers. Please stick to the facts.

I think it is strange how your posts always become about the person posting, rather than the facts.
 
I’ve been hanging back on this one, but if we’re going to start tossing around performance data, I’m going to have to jump in. Jeff, I’m glad you finally found our forum it’s one of the largest and friendliest manufacturer forums on the internet. You are more than welcome to join in on our discussions at any time but you seem to be getting a little aggressive in your posts.

When you refer to “your Busse” in your post I’m working off of the assumption that you’re referring to the Battle Mistress and not just any Busse model. I make this assumption based on the fact that you bring up the RTAK as a comparative blade model which has a nearly identical blade shape to the original Battle Mistress. If I am mistaken in your intent, I apologize for that.

Ok, lots of folks cut up vegetables in camp. This IS a knife chore. So, would you be willing to put your Busse up in a head to head test thin slicing vegetables and judge performance? What? You don't consider my vegetable test fair because it doesn't fit into the scope of your Busse?
Click to expand...

Would you be willing to put your vegetable cutting knife against a Battle Mistress in heavy impact chopping or prying? Only if you're insane. ;) And by the way, the amazing GINSU knife would smoke your RTAK’s bacon in vegetable slicing, so what’s your point? I fail to see where Eric stated that a Battle Mistress or any other single Busse model was the best knife for ALL knife chores. Who are you responding to?

Ok, will you put your Busse up in a head to head test with an RTAK in secondary jungle growth and see who wins? True performance testing. If not jungle growth lets try blackberry vines and/or Kudzu? Real world tests baby and I'm willing to bet the farm that the RTAK and MANY other blades will beat your Busse. You're the one always bragging about performance testing so put your money where your mouth is.
Click to expand...

Geez, you sound kind of worked up there Jeff. I’d be very willing to put my money where my mouth is. Will you? I'll put my money on this. A lighter, thinner edged blade might very well cut faster than a Battle Mistress in your little vine cutting test IF we’re judging on speed alone. But the Battle Mistress will hold its own, get the job done, and NEVER fail. However, if we take your RTAK and subject it to only 50% of the levels of abuse that a Battle Mistress can stand up to, you'll be getting your picture taken with your handle in one hand and your blade in the other. Now, you're not going to say publicly that a survival knife, in a REAL survival situation does not run the risk of being subjected to high levels of impact abuse or prying are you? I hope not.


I think this thread has gone sufficiently off course. I will be responding to the original subject of this thread later. For now I suggest that we let this die out unless there is some more important information that just can’t wait to be said.

Keep it fun,

Jerry
 
Hey! I thought we were supposed to be talking about those new knives with the cool looking handles and familiar profiles. There's a political forum for people who like to pick each other apart:p
Arguing over which knife is "better" is pointless, 'cause we all have different uses, and no one knife, or one knife manufacturer for that matter is the best in all departments. Steel is just one part of what makes a knife perform, and it's not the biggest part, either...
I just want to know if Jamie was right, and F-3V is F(ehrman) CPM-3V, and not a mystery steel at all.

btw, my Basic 9 is superb for food prep. You oughta see how much peanut butter you can get on that blade, and it's long enough to reach all the way to the bottom of the jar without getting any on your fingers:D

oops, cross-posted with Jerry, and he said let it die. Cool, but I'm leaving the peanut butter performance testimonial where it is.
 
Well at least you admit other brands do exist.

Bottom line is Busse makes a great knife, but there are others that will out-perform it under various conditions. Such as:

1) Cutting vegetables
2) Cutting vegetation
3) Cutting bush

Staying on topic:

Websters Dictionary

Performance (n.) - act of performing; execution or carrying out a task

A real world challenge to me is actually doing something that a knife does in the real world. Sure your knife *might* be sharper or cut a million pieces of rope, but at what efficiency does it do this? How much pressure does it take for your heavy edge angle to slice a vine, rope, whatever, compared to a thinner blade? As a side note, has a Busse ever entered the cutting efficiency contest they have at the Eugene Orgeon show? I have never been there and done that either but I hear the thin edged blades always win. This is a good "performance" test in my opinion for cutting efficiency, although these blades would probably get beat when it comes to toughness testing. Free hanging rope seems to make a pretty good efficiency test although it's still not "real world" to me the same as cutting cement blocks.

I don't cut cement blocks in two when I'm in the bush. I don't bend a knife to 70 degrees when I'm in the bush. I do cut bush, vegetation, food, vegetables, and even light chop and split for firewood. No doubt the Busse will out-chop a lot of other brands I use. I never said that Brand X was better than Busse, simply that Brand X will do a lot of things a knife is used for better than Busse. My whole argument is this: a Busse (or any other knife) is not the one do-all blade for the wilderness. Can we agree on this?

You implied there was no other knife that could out-perform a Busse, or maybe I just misunderstood you? Maybe your implication is true when it comes to your realm of testing but to make such a broad statement over the full spectrum of outdoor use is an inaccuracy at best. I proved that by my vegetable slicing scenario. Now, if Busse came out with a thin slicing blade then it may very well be the best in the business.

I'll be real honest with you, although I like Busse blades because of quality and toughness, they're one of the worst I have used in jungle conditions. We had one participant that had a BM and it wouldn't cut worth a damn going through secondary jungle growth but was a cutting beast when it came to cutting down Chonta and Black Palms.

So you want my idea of a good performance test? Ok, lets take two random women or men off the street who know nothing about the knife industry, put a factory Busse and another factory brand in their hands and let them go to simple set of chopping and slicing chores for a few hours. Using each blade equally during their tests. Chopping through 2x4 blocks, cutting an area of grass that is a definite number of square feet in size and the same height, same type, etc., slicing meat and vegetables, cutting through the same size of Bamboo, splitting Bamboo, carving bamboo for pots, slicing 1 inch hemp rope, and yes we'll even throw in some prying to make it fair to Busse. Then at the end of each test let them decide which worked best for them. None of this Cliff Stamp "scientific" stuff, instead average folks applying an edge and judging what they like best.

I would think that you would agree that the end consumer is the ultimate tester for a manufactured product. If this is true then they should have the ultimate say on what works best during their tests. An in-experienced end user is even a better qualifier since you are not always selling blades to highly experienced people. We test a lot of gear this way and have found that generally the best survival gear is that gear that doesn't take a lot of thinking or technique to use.

If you're selling a BM as an all-around survival knife then I can tell you it's not, there are MANY out there that are better for general survival use. Just look at the old mountain man knives and their design. If you're selling a BM as a tough as nails "nuclear" tough tool, then I'll buy that.
 
Jerry, you and I were posting at the same time but after reading your post I think my post to Eric answers your questions. In fact, we are actually in agreement on most points.

BTW: Eric is one hell of a good Busse salesman. I'd put that boy on the payroll :D
 
I own a Busse and really like their designs, and appreciate what they are intended to do. An excellent camp knife.

Yet I agree 100% with Jeff Randall on this one. His response to the "perfomance" challenge issued by Eric is correct, and I have no trouble believing him when he says Busses are not very good for machete-like work. I can't imagine they would be, given their length to thickness ratio.
 
We gon' party at TAG Extreme deciding all this stuff!

:D

Just make sure everyone stays calm during tests -- if one knife is outperforming another, and people get angry, and they all have knives in their hands, then we may have a bit o' trouble, bubba!...

:eek:


:D
 
Originally posted by Eric Isaacson
However, it is too bad no one competes with Busse where it really matters and that's in the performance.
Click to expand...

Just so we are keeping this to the facts and what was actually said, I decided to copy over Eric's blanket statement that implies that Busse out-performs everyone. Now, go back and read webster's definition of performance and the fact that performance has many variables, and tell me where I am wrong in debating Eric on this foolish statement. That's the reason I brought up the kitchen knife scenario to show how foolish of a statement that really was.
 
Would it be possible to start another thread on the discussion of testing, relative performance, etc. and keep this thread on the original subject? It just a click of a button to start a new thread...
Both subjects are interesting, but NOT in the same thread. Please?

-SB
 
Hmmmmm.. . . not bad. . .I say let it die. . . and we get 8 posts in record time. . . . Okay, since that didn't work. . .let's try this.

Let it Live!!!! (There, , , ,that ought to kill it!) ;)

Jerry
 
Jerry:

What we have here is a battle of the "Keyboard Kommandos". (Myself included) By now, these people should realize that there is no way to win this battle. One person types something and the other person replies and it goes on and on and on...........:yawn:
 
Yes, I believe performance is debateable, that does not mean it is not excellent, but blind faith in Busse does the company a disservice. I have handled a Badger and a Steel Heart 2. both are excellent for those who prefer them, however I find that their handles ergonomics are not very good for my hand, I would prefer other knives over them for that reason. Also if you are a hunter, you would choose Busse first as for to skin/dress your game?- fish, fowl, rabbit, deer as well as cariboo?? Can it do the job, yes probably it can serve effeciently, is it going to be your first choice- for most hunters I doubt it.
It is excellent OVER ALL, however obviously this requires compromises in some tasks in balancing the knife's over all usefulness.
Martin
 
Hey...I bought a knife at my local gas station for $3.95 that could beat the snot out of any knife Jerry makes! ;)

You're a class act, Jerry, with products to match. Keep up the outstanding work! There's only one brand of knives that wear the name "Busse."
 
Originally posted by martin j
It is excellent OVER ALL, however obviously this requires compromises in some tasks in balancing the knife's over all usefulness.
Martin
Click to expand...

Excellent post and you summed up everything that I was trying to beat home here. I have never doubted the excellent quality and usefullness of a Busse knife, but as with other makers there are certain points they excel at and some points where other knives are better (EVERY knife is that way). Not as much from personal preference but rather a need to do a certain job more efficiently, which DOES equate to performance. Like I said somewhere else, if Busse would make a machete / kitchen / thin woodsman's knife, then I would bet they would be first class. I'm not trashing Busse here. I couldn't do that and be honest with myself, but I do challenge blanket statements that are misleading.
 
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