Southard flipper action disappointing

emjay4248 said:
All their flippers have an inherent problem that became most problematic in the Advocate. The knife has a thin washer between the bearing and the knife. The logic was that steel directly on Titanium would eventually eat its way into the knife and give it side to side movement. The problem is that the steel washers are too thin and the steel bearing makes a gully in the washer, this is what is wrong with the knife. The problem was so bad with the Advocate that they halted production until they figure out what to do.and I believe that the also allowed people to bring it back to the store for a refund and I guess they would make good to the vendor
Anyway to make a long story longer, send it back for a referb, it will cost you about $20 and it will be as good as new. I have a refurbed Southard that I want to sell with 2 sets of custom scales. I stopped using it right after I got my Domino. Hope all turns out well.
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At least in the Southard, it's a pretty complicated problem. So, ZT and many other companies don't use washers behind their bearings even on untreated (not hardened) titanium. I'm fairly convinced that Spyderco at least initially intended to use these washers to make up for other tolerance changes in the Southard over its lifetime.

For example, if the Titanium isn't perfectly flat or if the backspacers standoffs are .006 too thick? No problem, use washers that are each .003 thicker than standard to keep the knife perfectly square. However, at some point in it's life they seem to have reverted to one size washer for everything, or possibly they only have one size at the USA customer service center.

I have been told by Spyderco customer service that they are no longer replacing washers in the Southards due to parts not being available. Their stance is that if a Southard has a manufacturing defect they will replace the entire knife. However, dished washers are not considered a manufacturing defect as in their opinion the only reason for a washer to dish is an over-tightened pivot. This puts Southard owners in an extremely difficult situation, as there are plenty of folks who have found dished washers in Southards that have never had the pivot touched. Or, folks who disassemble their knives for cleaning and inadvertently overtighten the pivot, who are now sitting on a $250++ knife that literally cannot be repaired. In the ones I've seen the washers were not hardened, which I think exacerbates the washers dishing out even under normal use.

Anyhow, figuring all of this out is what prompted me to have washers made that can be custom fitted to your particular Southard. I love the Southard as a knife, and was faced with basically selling it off since the factory washers in my opinion have a limited lifespan. Here's the post I made about the kit, let me know what you think:

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You've got the wrong membership level to be selling stuff on here. You should upgrade to the right membership or edit your post to remove the link.
 
Danke42 said:
You've got the wrong membership level to be selling stuff on here. You should upgrade to the right membership or edit your post to remove the link.
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Okay, my intention really wasn't to market or sell stuff and I definitely don't want to come across as spammy.

I'm way more interested in trying to get to the root of why this is such a major problem with the Southards and other washered Spydercos
 
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At least in the Southard, it's a pretty complicated problem. So, ZT and many other companies don't use washers behind their bearings even on untreated (not hardened) titanium. I'm fairly convinced that Spyderco at least initially intended to use these washers to make up for other tolerance changes in the Southard over its lifetime.

For example, if the Titanium isn't perfectly flat or if the backspacers standoffs are .006 too thick? No problem, use washers that are each .003 thicker than standard to keep the knife perfectly square. However, at some point in it's life they seem to have reverted to one size washer for everything, or possibly they only have one size at the USA customer service center.

I have been told by Spyderco customer service that they are no longer replacing washers in the Southards due to parts not being available. Their stance is that if a Southard has a manufacturing defect they will replace the entire knife. However, dished washers are not considered a manufacturing defect as in their opinion the only reason for a washer to dish is an over-tightened pivot. This puts Southard owners in an extremely difficult situation, as there are plenty of folks who have found dished washers in Southards that have never had the pivot touched. Or, folks who disassemble their knives for cleaning and inadvertently overtighten the pivot, who are now sitting on a $250++ knife that literally cannot be repaired. In the ones I've seen the washers were not hardened, which I think exacerbates the washers dishing out even under normal use.

Anyhow, figuring all of this out is what prompted me to have washers made that can be custom fitted to your particular Southard. I love the Southard as a knife, and was faced with basically selling it off since the factory washers in my opinion have a limited lifespan. Here's the post I made about the kit, let me know what you think:

<removed>
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I hadn't realized that Spyderco was taking that position. That's very disappointing.
 
JNewell said:
I hadn't realized that Spyderco was taking that position. That's very disappointing.
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JNewell; Just to clarify, this doesn't seem to be their official policy. Basically I was told that if it's a warranty issue (IE not due to the owner over tightening the pivot......) then they generally replace the non-USA knives. And that for knives made overseas they usually do not stock parts other than pocket clips and screws. It wasn't a direct position from them and their statements were really in general terms.

I've recently noticed on pics of the mantra, domino, southard, and other bearings knives that there are indications that this non-square bearing pocket isn't just a problem with the southard. Take a look at the pics in this thread, note how the bearing impressions are only on about 2/3 of the washer: https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?t=69758

I am really not hating on Spyderco here. I truly LOVE the southard, which is what sent me down this entire path
 
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Wow. Yes, I love everything about the Southward. Except the crappy flipping action of mine...
 
Possible Silver Bullet for Spyderco cupped washer issue!

There are several threads on BF that address and discuss cupped washer issues with Spyderco Southard and Domino knives. I plan to post my findings on multiple threads with the intent to help fellow BF members with what I have found to be a solution that has worked for me. I own 6 Southard C156GPBN knives and all of them had cupped washers when I disassembled them brand new from Spyderco. Their "new condition" flipping action varied from good to average. As you can tell I really like the Southard model since I own 6 of them and my concern over time is the action was going to degrade as the very thin (.005") stainless flat washers continue to cup and eventually fail entirely.

What I have determined is that the plastic bearing washer works just fine and is not a concern for wearing out, the issue as we have all noted is the cupping of the thin (.005") flat stainless steel washer the bearing washer rides on. My silver bullet is that I have found a replacement flat stainless steel washer that perfectly fits the Southard knife pivot and is .010" thick which is twice as thick as the factory .005" flat washer. The extra .005" thickness on each side of the pivot has not impacted the blade centering nor blade play and in my opinion improves the flipping action. Best of all, NO MORE CUPPING!!! I do not own a Domino but I bet a dollar to a doughnut this washer is the same size as the washers used in my Southard. It would be great if someone with a Domino could validate this for the team.

The replacement stainless steel washers can be found at Superior Washer & Gasket Corp. ( www.superiorwasher.com ), part number 300-1044-010. Their dimensions are, ID .219", OD .432", thickness .010". They cost $2.00. I have used them in a couple of my Southard knives and have flipped them 100's of times. It worked for me, I hope it works for you!
 
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Thanks Norgman, sorry I couldn't provide you my washers separate from the kit and at a steep discount. FYI, those specs will not work on all Southards, there are at least 4 tolerance variations through the years that we know of. I will say that these specs do not match my kit, although they will work in some Southards.

Also, to anyone ordering these, make sure that the supplier is able to provide them "full hard". Otherwise you will absolutely end up with grooves over time.
 
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therealPlatonicForms said:
Thanks Norgman, sorry I couldn't provide you my washers separate from the kit and at a discount. FYI, those specs will not work on all Southards. Also to anyone ordering these, make sure that the supplier is able to provide them "full hard". Otherwise you will absolutely end up with grooves over time.
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These washers work for all my Southard knives ranging in multiple years and they are the exact same dimensions as the ones I bought from you...Not saying they are the same washers you offer but they are stainless steel...
 
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therealPlatonicForms said:
Sorry to say that your calipers may be off. Based on the link you provided, both your ID and OD are incorrect.
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ID and OD are manufacture specs. I'm not going to debate this with you since I know you like to sell your washers, bottom line is they work...and work very well.
 
Respectfully, it is not as simple as just ordering a washer (even of the correct spec). Technically what I sell are bearing races. An off the shelf washer is designed to slightly deform under load, as a screw or bolt is tightened down. What I sell are made specifically to my specs, not just ID OD and thickness but most importantly hardness. Not to say yours won't work for some folks, and more power to you and anyone else with the time to dig into this situation, but it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

As far as liking selling my washers - to be totally truthful I'm all for people figuring out what works and what doesn't. The product you linked cannot be returned. So there is a risk of spending $20 on a washer that might not even fit. Versus my kit that is money-back guaranteed to fit, is hardened properly, and includes upgraded bearings, and a detailed installation video at $30.
 
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Life is all about finding alternatives and I found one that works great for me, other can decide for themselves... competition is a wonderful thing...
 
I am done debating my findings with Therealplatonicform the fact that I have found a solution that works very well for me and wanted to share it with other BF members that have experienced the same cupping issue. Bottom line is I have provided an alternate solution that works! Members are intelligent people and can decide for themselves what solution they want to purchase. This was a service announcement and trust me I have no monetary gain either way. BF is intended to share information with members and let them decide for themselves...Chow....
 
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