sowbelly vs. railsplitter

[neal70]

i was wondering what folks know about these two patterns. they're both heavy duty stockman style knives and i wondered if they were originally competing patterns-say two different companies-stylistically different but very similar in heavy duty construction. any pics are always appreciated my favorite railsplitter, though i don't own one, is the rams horn ontario/queen rat knife. gotta go 1 yr old raising havoc

 

[Rookie82]

I don't own any railsplitters, but I really do like the looks of them. My main EDC is a S&M stag sowbelly. I very rarely leave home without it. I like how it has 3 different blade profiles, but all 3 are large blades. I've seen a few pics of railsplitters here on BF that are a Tuna Valley in buffalo horn, and wow they look impressive. Here is my sowbelly.

 

[neal70]

beautiful knife R82. really nice stag. i have looked at the buffalo horn sowbellys and railsplitters from queen and been impressed. that sowbelly looks like it would ride nice in the pocket.

 

[Railsplitter]

I'm not sure how the Sowbelly pattern came to be. I was thinking that it was a Tony Bose design but that might not be correct. The only Sowbelly I've ever owned is this Rough Rider. I carried it steady for a couple months and I did like the knife but I couldn't get used to the way the spey blade is angled (in line with the curvature of the knife) when opened. Some folks like that feature but I found it awkward. I don't have a photo to show what I mean but just imagine the spey blade being fully open in this photo.



I believe the Railsplitter pattern is Queen's rendition of the Surveyor pattern. They made it a little more robust but it follows the same lines as the Surveyor. Queen has made the Railsplitter in a few different blade patterns other than the Stockman configuration. There is a Schatt & Morgan Railsplitter with the Whittler blade pattern (which I don't own) and this Queen made Northwoods sports the Moose blade pattern.



Colt made a knife that most folks, myself included, like to call a Railsplitter but the manufacturer actually calls it the Rancher Stockman.



Here's a Queen made Ontario Rat Railsplitters in Ram's Horn. Similar to the Queen branded version mentioned in the original post.

 

[neal70]

yah that'd be the one. i've been watching fleabay for examples at a reasonable price, but they keep getting away. they have that one and the ontario/queen rat stockman as well, but both are listed a little out of range around x-mas. the colt knife is interesting. i wonder if you know what type of steel it has?

 

[Peter Parker]

Mine are on the left side here. They are at the top for how good a knife feels in the hand but I slightly prefer the sowbelley. The railsplitter to my eyes is slightly better looking. I hate the thought of not having either one in my collection!

 

[Railsplitter]

yah that'd be the one. i've been watching fleabay for examples at a reasonable price, but they keep getting away. they have that one and the ontario/queen rat stockman as well, but both are listed a little out of range around x-mas. the colt knife is interesting. i wonder if you know what type of steel it has?

I'm not sure really but it's nothing fancy. Maybe 440A, 420HC, or the equivalent.

 

[D.B Cooper]

I prefer the look and blade selection of the railsplitter, but in practice, the sowbelly is much easier to carry IMO. The Queen railsplitters are very thick.

 

[supratentorial]

... i wondered if they were originally competing patterns-say two different companies-stylistically different but very similar in heavy duty construction....

You should burn whatever source you read and buy a copy of Levine's Guide.

Some manufacturers sold both patterns. The surveyor (what you called a "railsplitter") is at least as old as the 1890s... maybe older. It is a cattle knife derivative. The sowbelly is at least as old as 1910. It's a stockman with a big curve.

Most of the early examples of surveyors that I've seen were skinnier and longer like the Maher & Grosh knives that I've previously shown. I've only seen the shorter and stubbier knives in catalogs in from the early 1900s.

I'm not sure where the name Railsplitter came from... the first time I heard the name used was by Queen. "Surveyor" and "Sowbelly" are collector terms.

I'm not sure how the Sowbelly pattern came to be. I was thinking that it was a Tony Bose design but that might not be correct...

Tony's not THAT old.

 

[Railsplitter]

Tony's not THAT old.

Sorry, Tony.

 

[neal70]

thanks for the information SuperT, i actually came up with the question on my own, based on certain (perceived) similarities in style .i would like to pick up a copy of "Levine's..." . the particular knowledge you cite is in the nature of what i was originally wondering about.

 

[supratentorial]

LGIV mentions a "Premier Cattle" pattern that is somewhat of a transition to the stockman pattern. I have never seen a catalog or actual example of this pattern. I asked for one recently and nobody was able to produce an example. They are supposedly a bit bulkier than stock knives. To some extent the old sowbellies fit that description and the old catalogs sometimes refer to them as "cattle knives" ("sowbelly" is a modern collector term, not a term of art). But it is my understanding that the "premier cattle" is different. One modern example of a Premier Cattle MIGHT be the recent Tony Bose collaboration knife.... at least you could make that argument. It was patterned after an oldie. But it is my opinion that it was patterned after a knife that was made well after the first stock knives. An earlier example is something that I'm still looking for in old catalogs.

 

[quattromori]

So now a "lateral" question on the topic...
On the S&M sowbelly pictured above, how many springs are there? Is it a three spring design, or a sort of whittler construction? I had never noticed that the S&M has both secondary blades opposite to the main blade (more like a whittler and less like a stockman).

Fausto

 

[neal70]

maybe you could pardon my ignorance SupraT , but i've never been entirely clear on the difference betwixt the stock patterns and the cattle(or cattleman's) knife. i had thought because of blade number and their positioning were the determining factors-in this case two differently labeled knives,both styles with main and secondary blades opposite a tertiary blade that could be a number of different configurations. does one become labeled differently based on overall size, or having a particular style of blade endemic to all true knives in one category or another? (like cattle knives have almost exclusively clips ((hypothetically speaking-i'm not saying this is the case)) or something like that?). thanks , Neal. p.s. sorry about the verbosity

 

[mqqn]

Sorry, Tony.

haha - I was wondering on that one, but who knows more about Railsplitters.....

best

mqqn

 

[supratentorial]

Neal, Cattle and stockman were terms of art. A stockman is a serpentine pattern. ....The rare exception is the Premier Cattle which is also serpentine.

Apparently, they didn't know what to call the sowbelly. In old catalogs it is sometimes "Serpentine Stock Pattern" (1910), "Cattle Knife; Serpentine Pattern" (1910), "Perfect Cattle Knife" or "Cattle" (1921). We classify it is a stockman with the a large curve to it.





I don't know where the names sowbelly and surveyor originated. They are collector names. I vaguely remember reading a hypothesis that "surveyor" might have come from the association of the pattern with land surveying magazines that advertised the knife. I don't know if this is true. The pattern was also advertised in many other types of magazines. I don't know if Queen was the first to use "railsplitter" for modern knives but it is the first example that I've seen. Colt (SMKW) seems to have picked up the name also. The name surveyor seems to have disappeared except from books.

Modern knife companies don't always stick with the standard pattern names. GEC called one run of equal-end cattle knives a "stockman". GEC sometimes makes up names for each pattern. Like "viper" or "white owl" etc. Someone needs to get them a copy of Levine's Guide.

Here's an early ad for a surveyor. It's a bit longer and skinnier than the modern knives.


Here's a 1920s surveyor (below the whittler). The modern examples seem to follow this version.


Here's a catalog page showing some of the Keen Kutter patterns

 

[supratentorial]

Some old surveyors. Notice the Maher & Grosh ad calls it a stock knife. Levine's Guide classifies it as a fancy cattle knife, not a stockman.

Nice knife, Old Bowie.

I posted a few M&G surveyors in the ebony thread earlier today.

Kerry posted a VF surveyor in the Old Knives thread...

This stout little knife is a 3" Valley Forge Surveyor made in a whittler configuration. Valley Forge is a stamp that goes back to 1892. Sometime in 1902, Boker USA got involved in the company and ended up having controlling interest by 1916. The stamp was used from 1916-1950.

Some intersting features on this knife include:
*The master blade seems to be made from thicker material than it needs to be
*The tapered cut spacer/liner seems to be thicker on the secondary blade end than it needs to be
*The springs are notched on the inside to keep the master from rapping when closed
*The liners are bowed outward slightly in the center on the open side to make room for the blades

Too bad the punch was tipped at some time, huh Charlie

 

[neal70]

did having the true "split springs" result in greater strength? (again perceived possibly?) the whittler in post #16 above the 20's surveyor seems almost hearty enough to qualify as one of today's railsplitters, if the blade proportions are anywhere near correct in the advertising. were cattle or stock knives ,one more than the other i mean, known to have three springs or two more exclusively? say,for example i walked in off the street to purchase a pocket knife would my cattle knife be as likely to have two springs or not. and what of the surveyors, did the spring pattern depend simply on the style of surveyor(whittler,moose,what-have-you) or were they consistent across the styles? (sorry i don't know if i'm being clear anymore, but i'm enjoying this immensely) p.s. maybe this is why i need a copy of "Levine's...",eh?

 

[supratentorial]

Whether split springs were stronger depends on perspective I guess. The main blade rides on both springs and is usually made of thicker stock to accommodate both springs. That could be considered strong. The secondary blades ride on single springs so they were made of thinner stock than the main blade and had lighter pulls. And a handle with full center scales ("liners") would probably be stronger than a wedge center on a whittler.

I prefer not to make generalizations. Some old knives are very "hearty". Some weren't. Some were extremely well made. Some weren't. There were differences in quality between brands as well as between knives from the same brand. The same can be said about knives today. Knifehead is a very talented custom slipjoint maker and made some comments about that old surveyor that a lot of other folks would miss. For example, the liners were bulged out to accomodate the blades. That's something that would not be received well today. Not all old surveyors were made this way. Not all old knives were made this way.

What are commonly called cattle knives or stock knives will typically have 3 blades and 2 springs. There are exceptions. In general, a pattern is defined by the handle and blades. Some knives, like the surveyor, are mostly defined by the handle shape. Sometimes size distinguishes patterns ...such as a double end jack and a pen knife. If you look through the old catalog images that I posted, you can appreciate how much work goes into writing a book like Levine's Guide. There were some terms of art but a lot of patterns names weren't written in stone. Everything is very well outlined in Levine's Guide 4th Edition. If you become serious about old knives, you will also want old catalogs to do your own research.

 

[bozack]

I have two Railsplitters. Both by Queen. Both horn handles, ram and buffalo. I love the thick stocky design. Haven't tried the sowbelly yet. It never appealed to me that much. But as of late, I have been growing more fond of then and my purchase one.