sowbelly vs. railsplitter

neal70 said:
... at what precisely(or even vaguely) is a " carpenters knife "? i'm somewhat familiar with traditional carpenters tools and knives(check out a striking knife sometime if you're not already familiar with it : a blade slightly angled ,much less than say half of a kiridashi, to cut around corners on boards following a line with an awl at the other end. about 7-8" long. folks make modern versions out of old spade bits.) but i have no idea what a " carpenters knife " consists of. at a guess i'd say : folding(duh), two or three hearty blades, one a sheepfoot of some variety, possibly a spear-point blade and then i don't know:). marks for being close or way off base?...
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Neal, Here's one example of a Carpenter's Knife. There are variations but they always have two full size blades and one blade is always sheepfoot. The handle varies. Some have curved handles (unlike this example).

 
Only just checked out this thread. Excellent well-informed posts, as always, Jake, the old catolgue pics are a bonus :thumbup:
 
yah ,no kidding. as a formerly paid and still annoying to my wife carpenter, i'd venture a guess that the size of that sheepfoot would make coping an inside corner cut easier in trim carpentry, help with outside corners and make an excellent mark ,while cutting fibers as well when cutting with a saw to a line. it seems like some vintage queen models(purported, you never know for sure) and other brands i was looking at on fleabay, but after re-checking i'd say i was mistaken. some of the Bill Ruple trappers could be modified,i suppose, but that dosen't answer the call for modern factory re-pros. are the carpenters pattern knives generally single bolster or does that vary in addition whether or not they're swayback as well? what is that style of very abbreviated clip called? or is that simply a nameless version of same? on a model with that intended market, and my own personal preferences, it would seem a bail or ring would be a good addition(or simply a bail-hole(( can't think of the appropriate name-need more coffee)) or whatever). the size of the blades also makes me think it would be a good handful to use,tho' it be not overly long. thanks,Neal p.s. i'm suprised that gec hasn't made a,ahem, stab at it.(sorry)
 
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Thank you, Jack.

Neal, Now might be a good opportunity for someone to do a carpenter's knife SFO with GEC. They're doing a run of the 47 pattern soon and it could be easily adapted to match the carpenter's knives with curved handles. I don't know if the bolsters are a defining feature but most of the ones that I can remember were bare ended. They can be a handful but they can be designed with the blades sitting low (see the page from Levine's Guide below). Also if you put the pulls for the blades on opposite sides, then both blades can sit very low inside the handle so that the knife is more comfortable to use.

473212-black1.jpg

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Blues said:
More HSB, 1886 catalog

HSB1886708.jpg

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thawk said:
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well SupraT- would you consider the two bladed #47 hayn' helper with pen blade an example or does the second blade need more robustness? i don't know what it takes for a SFO but it dosen't sound bad. did you catch the knife on the gec blog site (#15 "sailors" knife)?!? i also note that Mr.Campanga has one coming up soon as well. what would you like to see as the secondary? i suppose a wharnie would be perhaps too far from the mark, but after looking twice at the above pictures perhaps not. a heavy blade sheepfoot and wharncliffe would be a stunning(overselling it a little,but...) combination, and one that i can't recall seeing very often.between the two of them they could account for quite a number of jobs, if you were inclined to use them.(i almost always use my knives-i just don't buy safe queens.no safe-no money:) plus it's such a pleasure to use my knives as intended) i have to confess that lately i've been filing down the stops on a few knives to make them more pocket friendly; it's surprising to see how pointed and tall the old stops are and would have left the blade(s). i have to say that the idea of nicks(possibly long draws?) on opposing side makes alot of sense-and i agree that would help lower the overall profile in hand and pocket. thanks,Neal
 
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neal70 said:
.... how large and how much does it run to do a SFO?
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That's not a question for this forum. We try and keep the commercialization to a minimum here. It's a constant struggle.
 
my apologies Peregrin. i should have known that was a no-no and asked to pm or e-mail. sincere apologies and i'm really not trying to be difficult-i just get lucky.
 
neal70 said:
my apologies Peregrin. i should have known that was a no-no and asked to pm or e-mail. sincere apologies and i'm really not trying to be difficult-i just get lucky.
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Been there done that! :D
 
SupraT : i noticed an older northwoods in the exchange, that i'd probably describe as a type of moose,northwoods calls a railsplitter and i believe answers the criterion for a surveyor. right or wrong? (they also have some lovely stag scaled versions at DLT) ((hope they're approved to mention)) thanks,Neal
 
A curved jack w/ a sheepfoot and a pen blade could be considered a "New England Whaler". GEC's Hayn' Helper is basically a shadow (bolsterless) version of this old pattern. A "Carpenter's Knife" always has 2 full size blades and one blade is always a sheepfoot.

My favorite combination of blades is a clip or spear blade main and sheepfoot secondary. There aren't many that fit that description from modern manufacturers. The 2015 forum knife is one of the few and I've been carrying it every day since I received the knife. I proposed something similar several years ago... a clip and sheepfoot blade on a sowbelly handle (technically a premium double end jack)... but it didn't win the final vote.

Queen made the "railsplitters" (surveyors) for Northwoods as well as their own brands. Queen may have came up with the name railsplitter. I don't know the origin of the name. Their pattern follows the shorter surveyor pattern used on old knives. Here are some photos of ebony and ivory Northwoods surveyors and a comparison photo with one of the earlier and longer/skinnier surveyors. I never collected the later style so I can't do a comparison photo but I have seen the knives and Queen's pattern is VERY close to the oldies except the old knives had thinner grinds. The blades on Queen's "Railsplitters" are usually excessively thick behind the edge--better at chopping than slicing. The Northwoods knives are a bit bulky compared to my old Maher & Grosh. I prefer this earlier and longer/slimmer style of surveyor. Miller Bros made some of these knives for Maher & Grosh. The old Maher & Grosh surveyors are uncommon to find and the there aren't modern versions of this longer/skinnier pattern.


 
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all right - soo...we need a full sized sheepfoot and clip(i love spear points,but the clip would allow for more fine work to be done. from personal knowledge a clip works much better than a spear for splinter removal:) ). what is your opinion on : overall length? 3.75 to approximately 4.125 seem not bad.( by the way the above knives are beautiful-are they yours? i hope a few are , if not all!). next would be pattern-you've:) mentioned aswayback or curved style several times, but i also have the impression that you like opposing full blades. i'm pretty open,really. my question would probably concern bolsters and springs(do the above knives have two springs or one larger spring to support the opposing blades?). i would like a single thicker spring on an opposing blade model. i would guess that type of design would contribute to a more lean, yet very strong type of knife. insofar as the width of the blade behind the edge i would bow to your expertise, but i would guess that input from the originators of the design would be listened to.(in other words it''s my dime, this is what i want;) ). are we designing a knife right here? let me know what you think, time permitting(this is fun, even if theoretical) thanks,Neal
 
oh i forgot, i like the idea of keeping the blades low in the handle, but i think that given that suspension, long pulls would probably be fairly meritorious. the HSB catalogue unanimously shows them and (i believe ) your Maher & Grosh has them. in fact i think the long pull on the sheepfoot, on the top(carpenters-labeled) knife is a match-strike. that i would truly enjoy-even on a single pull, or one side and not the other(sorry, not trying to sound condescending, just a little confusing). i'm starting to assume a lot so maybe i better slow down and see what you think!:). i don't even know if you're thinking side by side or opposing. thanks,Neal
 
I agree about the versatility of the clip/sheepfoot combo. IIRC, most of the carpenter's knives were around 3.5". On a knife with two full size blades, this size works really well. A full size sheepfoot would be MASSIVE on 4.125" knife! I do think 3.74 to 4.125 is also cool but that's going to be a LOT more knife than a lot of folks would carry. I think stock knives and single blades work better in those sizes. I think for a carptenter's knife, 3.5" would sell best.

All of the knives were mine at one time. Some are sold or traded. As far as modern knives, I'm more fond of the modern sowbellies than the modern railsplitters. But it's just a matter of personal preference and I appreciate both patterns.

I like the old and new swayback patterns as well.

As far as the double end design... there's less wasted space. And it allows for a slimmer design. Most single end jacks have wasted space that is either completely empty (a good spot for loose change to get wedged in) or filled by a wrap around spring. A pattern like the carpenter's knife is an exception since both blades are full size. I like knives of all shapes and sizes. But for me, the most practical design for pocket carry and regular use is 3.75-4" double end jack. I'm hoping GEC will make single spring versions of their 68, 38, and 81 patterns with clip and sheepfoot blades.
 
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been a bit so if no response no prob. Old Bowie : nice! what are the other blades on that particular model? it looks as though there might be a punch or hoof pick? if you see this and get a chance i'd love to read or see pics of the other blades. thanks, Neal
 
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