sowbelly vs. railsplitter

[neal70]

^^^^someone tell my wife that's what i want for x-mas. Bozack those are lovely examples of two i hope to have one day myself. SupraT thanks for taking the time to explain a few things.i really appreciate your time, and enjoy your posts, for the most part.( not that i'm aware of anything you've written that i personally disagree with, but you never know )

 

[supratentorial]

I have two Railsplitters....

Nice knives!

...I prefer not to make generalizations...

I will make this generalization though... with exceptions...A lot of the old pocket knives had very thin primary grinds even when they were made from thick stock. That was a selling point. They were cutting tools. Strength was also an advertising point but not nearly as much as today. I think this is carry over from modern tactical folders. A thin grind will slice better. There are intermediates but on the other extreme, a thick blade will not slice well. It will work for chopping. Some modern knives have thin grinds. Some don't. A lot of folks that are new to traditional knives and more familiar with tactical folders tend to prefer thick blades and not necessarily for good reason. Give both a shot and see what works well for you.

 

[neal70]

truthfully i would say i'm about equally well acquainted with both to the extent that i've used both most of my life, starting for sure with traditional styles. part of what piqued my interest over these two styles was the scale of the blades, which were noticeably more robust than many other styles of trad.'s(do folks mind the shortening of the word? sorry if so) i personally have gained some insights here which i do appreciate enormously. i actually haven't tried them out yet, but a three bladed surveyor is in my future. thanks SupraT.

 

[WoodenChicken]

haha - I was wondering on that one, but who knows more about Railsplitters.....

best

mqqn

Very true......wow, just noticed your avatar picture is Lucca Brazzi.....excellent

 

[Railsplitter]

I'm not sure how the Sowbelly pattern came to be. I was thinking that it was a Tony Bose design but that might not be correct.

Tony's not THAT old.

Jake, since I made my post I've done some minimal research and I learned that the Sowbelly pattern is in fact much older than Tony Bose. I didn't doubt your statement for a second but I wanted to know what made me think the Sowbelly was a Tony Bose design.

I also learned that some, but apparently not all, Case Sowbellies are stamped with a "TB" in front of the pattern number. Assuming that stands for Tony Bose, how did Tony become associated with the pattern? Perhaps because Tony makes knives based on patterns from days gone by?

 

[black mamba]

The Case sowbelly is a Tony Bose pattern, although not made to his exacting specs by their best cutlers, as the Case/Bose collaborations are. The recent teardrop, the swayback jack and gent, and the backpocket patterns are his designs as well.

 

[knarfeng]

or more specifically, while the general 'Sowbelly" pattern itself is very old, the specific implementation of the pattern by Case was designed by Tony Bose. For instance, the way the blades are offset, instead of crinked.

 

[neal70]

i find the "TB" designation helpful in the sense that it tells me i might like some of the so designated knives due to his interpretations of certain designs, things demonstrated above, as well as differences in grinds on swedges and overall blade shape. one long run-on sentence. i think they did the same thing with blackie collins. wife calling-must go.

 

[supratentorial]

...I also learned that some, but apparently not all, Case Sowbellies are stamped with a "TB" in front of the pattern number. Assuming that stands for Tony Bose, how did Tony become associated with the pattern? Perhaps because Tony makes knives based on patterns from days gone by?

The knife was patterned after old knives. If I recall correctly, he said "reborn" or "rebirthed" or something similar. They aren't exact replicas though. There are improvements in construction and design that would not have been possible for regular production knives then or now. Tony is well known for making mechanically perfect pocket knives. He is also known for sharing his knowledge and patterns with other makers. You'll find many other makers using Tony's patterns. I don't know how closely the Case regular production sowbelly follows his pattern. Unfortunately, I don't have one of his custom sowbellies for comparison. It would be neat to see a well photo if someone has one.

 

[Rookie82]

So now a "lateral" question on the topic...
On the S&M sowbelly pictured above, how many springs are there? Is it a three spring design, or a sort of whittler construction? I had never noticed that the S&M has both secondary blades opposite to the main blade (more like a whittler and less like a stockman).

Yes, my S&M has triple backsprings. I believe when I bought it, it was listed as a "sowbelly whittler". Main blade on the right rests between the 2 secondary blades on the left.

 

[supratentorial]

...a couple more things that might be of interest...

The sowbelly pattern was around at least until the 1940s but then it seems to have largely disappeared. There are some examples from Ibberson in the 1970s. And Queen, Cripple Creek, Bull Dog, and Fightn' Rooster revived the pattern in the 80s and 90s. Case actually made the pattern about 100 years ago. But it is Tony's pattern that brought the sowbelly back to Case regular production about 12 or so years ago.

Reviving old patterns is one of the great things about custom knives. For a long time, the only way to get a high quality knife in certain patterns was to get one custom made. There are still some patterns that have not yet been revived but manufacturers are cranking out a lot more patterns these days. And folks seem to have much less interest in old knives and much more interest in aesthetics. There are a few recent revivals that have sparked new interest in old knives. Charlie's barlows are a good example. They seem to have also revived interest in the old knives.

 

[neal70]

SupraT-could you list or talk about some of the older patterns you'd like to see? even start anew thread if you're so inclined. i, for one, would be very interested in what you, and some others like Railsplitter, Charlie Waynorth and any of the other long time and extremely well informed members of this forum would like to see re-born, as it were. if you already have done this, post a link ,if it's not too much trouble, or if starting a new thread would be a pain in the fundament. thanks,Neal ( those two names were off the top of my head ,no offense meant to any and all others.)

 

[quattromori]

You folks are pushing me hard towards a Queen/S&M sowbelly to be modded into a single bladed version.
Not the first time Jake pushes me this way...maybe this time you will succeed

Fausto

 

[Railsplitter]

SupraT-could you list or talk about some of the older patterns you'd like to see? even start anew thread if you're so inclined. i, for one, would be very interested in what you, and some others like Railsplitter, Charlie Waynorth and any of the other long time and extremely well informed members of this forum would like to see re-born, as it were. if you already have done this, post a link ,if it's not too much trouble, or if starting a new thread would be a pain in the fundament. thanks,Neal ( those two names were off the top of my head ,no offense meant to any and all others.)

I can't think of an older pattern off the top of my head that I would like to see re-born but I'll bet if you take a look through the "Old Knives" thread linked below you'll likely find a few that you would want to see re-born. Also, these old knives themselves can bring a lot of pleasure to a knife enthusiast and they can make excellent companions if chosen wisely. Finding a vintage knife in good usable condition can be very rewarding and often not very expensive. I have a few myself. Some users and some not but I get the most pleasure from the users. The satisfaction of carrying an 80+ year old knife with a little wear and tear on it is hard to beat. I might someday sell or trade my non user vintage knives but I wouldn't part with my users for anything.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/527126-quot-Old-Knives-quot

Many custom knife makers have already recreated some older out of production patterns. The afore mentioned Tony Bose has an impressive knack for this. I wish I could afford one of his customs but his Case/Bose collaboration knives are an excellent way to enjoy his patterns at 1/5 the cost. The 2015 Case/Bose Cattle Knife, as I understand it, is a recreation of an old pattern marketed by Shapleigh Hardware of St. Louis. I had never seen the pattern before until I saw the photos of the 2015 Collaboration knife. That's just one example but I believe most of Tony's knives are recreations of older patterns.

If older patterns spark your interest I highly recommend searching out a good used vintage knife. They aren't hard to find at reasonable prices and there's just something about them that cannot be experienced any other way.

 

[black mamba]

Here is a comparison between a Tuna Valley (Queen) railsplitter and a Case TB sowbelly.

Closed Length: Railsplitter = 3.72" -- Sowbelly = 3.83"
Closed Width: Railsplitter = 0.58" -- Sowbelly = 0.58"
Closed Height: Railsplitter = 1.01" -- Sowbelly = 1.05"
Clip Length to Bolster: Railsplitter = 2.56" -- Sowbelly = 2.73"

Both knives utilize stock removal to let the secondary blades pass rather than krinking, which is a plus in my thinking, and both are relatively stocky knives, though not overly thick for 3 blades. The well shot makes the sowbelly look wider, but it is widest in the middle, while the railsplitter is the widest at the bolsters. In spite of the Tuna Valley's excellent 154CM steel, I prefer the Case, for both it's ergonomics (the "belly" fits my palm beautifully!) and it's slightly longer, slimmer blades.

 

[neal70]

black mamba : the , ahhh...price wouldn't have anything to do with it too, would it. i've yet to see a tuna valley i didn't like-even patterns i don't normally look twice at, but there prices are outta this world (at least for me, right now-patience patience). thanks for posting the dimensions of the respective pieces. it's really interesting(i want to say cool) that they compare so closely dimensionally, but be so different in aesthetics . Railsplitter : thanks for the link, i'll check it asap, but i don't have time tonight, my mother-in-law is going in to surgery tomorrow. i have looked at both of the Boses' work, as well as some other fine makers whose names escape at the moment. the two traditional styles, although not as old as all that, that i would like are a simple yellow delrin case fishing knife and the largest three bladed buck stockman with the black saw cut delrin scales. they were two knives my grandfather usually had on or about him. i do understand your point about older knives and i will probably start hunting around-for what i'm not sure yet,though. thanks,Neal P.S. : Railsplitter you're starting to sound like Ed Fowler, when you talk about using 80-100 year old knives. that's a good thing, imho

 

[supratentorial]

I can't think of an older pattern off the top of my head that I would like to see re-born but I'll bet if you take a look through the "Old Knives" thread linked below you'll likely find a few that you would want to see re-born...

^^ The old catalog thread also. Just about everything from the late 1890s Maher & Grosh catalog would be worthy of revival. As another example, Remington produced thousands of patterns.

Actually, there's one example in this thread as well.... Those early surveyors with the skinnier and longer handles could be revived.

An easy one would be a "carpenter's knife". A lot of companies could make that pattern with a blade change

GEC brought back the Eureka jack but the Eureka cattle pattern is also deserving of new life.

Etc.

 

[neal70]

alright, darn it , i have to expose my ignorance : at what precisely(or even vaguely) is a " carpenters knife "? i'm somewhat familiar with traditional carpenters tools and knives(check out a striking knife sometime if you're not already familiar with it : a blade slightly angled ,much less than say half of a kiridashi, to cut around corners on boards following a line with an awl at the other end. about 7-8" long. folks make modern versions out of old spade bits.) but i have no idea what a " carpenters knife " consists of. at a guess i'd say : folding(duh), two or three hearty blades, one a sheepfoot of some variety, possibly a spear-point blade and then i don't know. marks for being close or way off base? Railsplitter- jeez ! a 100+ page post?!? it may take a day or three for me to get through but i surely will. i definitely have some pieces that are 40-50 yrs. old and possibly some others, pen knives mostly (all inherited,one way or another) with mop that may be older. i need to look at some tang stamps a bit more closely. gotta go, thanks Neal

 

[Railsplitter]

Railsplitter- jeez ! a 100+ page post?!? it may take a day or three for me to get through but i surely will.

Hee Hee.

Take your time, Neal. There's no hurry and you might find it worth the time. If not, that's OK too but there are some great old knives there. Good luck!

 

[neal70]

hey Railspltter : i got busted for language by Knarfeng , apologized and said i'd refrain in the future("kissed feet" would be the correct old expression, i think. ) should i be o.k. now or is there anything else to say/do that would be appreciated? oh, if my language bothered any one, my humble apologies.