Spam e-mail from BSF

Well, Patrick's posting privledges have been removed so he can't reply. The email addresses were gathered by the webmaster of BSF...the ones who received the email from Patrick, were those who signed up for the TAD newsletter. He just gets the blame because he is the "frontman" for BSF. Patrick will give you the "remove link" if you email him for it. I think it's really sad...but his loss...is our gain.
wink.gif
I think BSF will be really big. Thank you Patrick.

-AR

[This message has been edited by Jackyl (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Since Patrick´s posting priviledges were removed (that´s what Jackyl´s post is saying) I am going to copy and paste his reply to my post from KFC. I am more than happy with his reply and if my initial post caused his problems here - I ask BF owners to reconsider their decision.


Patrick´s reply to my post:

david,
the new BSF forum is free for anyone to visit and use. you are very welcome to join, use as you see fit, and perhaps even benefit from it.

as for the "spam", the notice you received is from our webmaster. i do not know how he culled your name for the list but i will see to it that he has you promptly removed.

you may also contact chuck cunningham directly at : buysharp@knifecorner.com or chuck_c@pacbell.net with an email with "remove" in the subject header and he will make sure you will taken off the mail list.

for me personally, i have never heard of you, you are not on any of Triple Aught Design's mail lists, and as per your anxieties, you will never be on any of our lists unless you volunteer or request to placed on it.

the only notices which were sent out by T.A.D. regarding B.S.F. were to folks who requested to be on the T.A.D. newsletter.

thank you.

------------------
PATRICK YORK MA
TRIPLE AUGHT DESIGN


Thank you.

David



------------------
DIVERTI NESCIO

---------------
My Photopoint pictures

Mikov Knives

Visit our region
 
I still have not received any spam from the site and I am registered. It is unfortunate though that Patrick's posting privileges here have been removed over someone else's error.

sarge
 
His posting ability is back on.

I personally do not ever remember joining the TAD list but I will not say I did not. If I had joined it, I am curious as to why I have never received any email before now.

I make no bones about not appreciating what Patrick has done. Any revenue or traffic pulled from this site makes it harder for us to keep this site alive. I have a 3 year contract on my server co-location fees and bandwidth charges so you can bet your ass that I will be forced to make decisions from time to time that are in the overall best interest of this site.

One decision I have already made is that I will not allow Patrick to advertise his forum here. He has agreed to not do it again. We are already his #1 source for hits and that would be a foolish mistake on my part to allow it to continue.

I do agree that the layout for our classified section leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we can work on a solution to that. If that is everyones main beef then hopefully we can make it better for you.

I have no problem with BSF as a site. I do have a problem with how he launched it and then implyed in his post that I had somehow done the same thing myself. Bull****, anyone that has been around since the early days knows exactly what happened and to imply that we did something similar is not cool in my book.

If you have been contacted by Patrick or you have talked to him on the phone about this subject, I would be interested in hearing from you. Call me toll free at 1-800-969-7771 or email me at mike@wowinc.com

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
Show Your Support -Visit Our Sponsors - Click On The Banners!
Visit www.onestopknifeshop.com
All sales from 1 Stop Knife Shop help support this site!
 
If Patrick did nothing unethical, then let us not punish him too severely, I would wager that many of us have been in a position of getting in hot water over something that was done in our name but not in accordance with our wishes. On the other hand, if he has acted unethically, he should be treated accordingly. Since his posting priveliges have been restored, I would like to hear an explanation straight from the horses' mouth. Patrick, are you out there?

------------------
The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
The jury is still out on what has been done. I am waiting to hear from Patrick on several rumors and direct emails in which he has said some things which are not cool in my book. He claims I have done the same thing and if anyone reading this can remember me saying anything about Patrick in public or private you have my permission to expose it right here, right now.

Also if you have recieved any emails from Patrick or if you have held conversation with him and he has said anything against BFC or myself I ask that you mention that as well.

Let's lay all the cards on the table.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
Show Your Support -Visit Our Sponsors - Click On The Banners!
Visit www.onestopknifeshop.com
All sales from 1 Stop Knife Shop help support this site!
 
Wow. The contrast between the administrators of BF and KFC is staggering.

Greetings Patrick,
I hear where you are coming from, and will defiantly support your effort... any thing I can do just let me know
------------------
James Nowka

In addition, James and Patrick have started a banner ad exchange on each other's site.

Contrast that response with Mike Turber's:

I make no bones about not appreciating what Patrick has done. Any revenue or traffic pulled from this site makes it harder for us to keep this site alive. I have a 3 year contract on my server co-location fees and bandwidth charges so you can bet your ass that I will be forced to make decisions from time to time that are in the overall best interest of this site.

One decision I have already made is that I will not allow Patrick to advertise his forum here. He has agreed to not do it again. We are already his #1 source for hits and that would be a foolish mistake on my part to allow it to continue.

I bought a BF hat at the Blade Show, I've purchased knives from 1SKS, and I've probably purchased as many classified ads from this site as anyone (with zero sales I might add), so I'm "doing my part" to support these forums. But I've heard from many long-time BF members that they think the forum quality has steadily been deteriorating, and that the administrators are really blowing it by going back on past promises by opening 1SKS, slamming long-time dealer members by calling them leaches, and displaying the unhelping attitude as displayed above. One of the things I've been amazed with is the incredible helpfulness displayed by everyone involved in the knife community. You walk into a knife show and see makers (custom and production) telling the competition how to improve their products. James Nowka is following in that tradition, Mike is not. I don't expect this to be a popular post, but I know that there is an increasing portion of the membership that feels the same way.


------------------
Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Kelly, your post is OK with me, you've hit several nails right on the head. The reasons you stated are why I post here less and less…
 
Senator, it's good to hear this (what I've been feeling) from a fellow "long-timer." It's about time someone stood out and said something. I love this site, and it's still the only one I post at, with the exception of Microholics where I post my questions on MT's, but it's not the same place it use to be. It's kinda "uncomfortable." I don't like to see the dealers, customers, administrators, and forum members at each other's throat, but what can be done to stop, while keeping the site alive? Maybe BFC should just go back to the ol' 286 in the Mike's basement with a 28.8 connection?
wink.gif
Maybe a merger with KFC?
wink.gif
I dunno, but I like the old days much better.

-AR
 
Gentlemen,

I have no time, desire, or heart for a long drawn out exchange of schoolyard pokes and jabs.

However in light of Mr. Turber's attacks, I will make some important points, in our "defense".

My notice for BuySharpForums was posted equally on Microholics.com, Knifeforums.com and here on Bladeforums.com.

It is there for everyone to enjoy and use. It is free. Any commercial organizations, BFC absolutley included, are invited to place banner ads for only $70.00 per year, every year or $10 a month.

We do not want to be another "BFC", we have neither the talents, skills, nor ambitions of Mr. Turber and WOW, inc.

BSF is a small venue for folks to have fun. We see it as a "club house" for the swapping of knives. Think of it as a treehouse you used to hang out when you were a kid to trade baseball cards.

As stated by Mr. Turber,
...I personally do not ever remember joining the TAD list but I will not say I did not. If I had joined it, I am curious as to why I have never received any email before now....

Not quite sure what you mean by that, but I do not recall sending you any announcments, as your name in not on the TAD newsletter, but are you wishing to join?


BSF was created for the knife enthusiast. The site will only increase traffic for all involved and facilitate knife related commerce, which is the end goal for all these knife related sites.

Mr. Turber's rationale that he had to break his business contract and word of honor to his banner ad dealers to start 1SKS was to keep BFC alive. While we never disputed the need the keep BFC alive, in fact we all lauded it, our only criticism was we felt that a certain breech of faith and that a principle was broken.

The case & point from that 1SKS example, is that Mr. Turber created another venue due to his necessity. BSF was created out of necessity as well. The minutia of "necessity" can be debatable and argued til we are all blue in the face, that's not the issue. What is, are the
...the ends justify's the means....
, in Mr. Turber's own words.

...build it, and they will come....
"Field of Dreams"

and so BSF was created....

Unlike 1SKS where it is an overt and direct venue for revenue that goes directly to WOW inc. The very small volume of revenue(if any) created by BSF goes 99% back into BSF, with maybe 1% going to burgers and fries for it's webmaster Mr. Cunningham.
wink.gif


Yes, I am in the business of selling knives, any traffic generated by any forums helps TAD out. The traffic generated from BFC for TAD is appreciated and paid for with our banner ad and posting "privileges".

I think the whole flashpoint is that Mr. Turber somehow feels that BFC is "threatened" by BSF. I think he is very wrong. BFC is a "skyscraper". BSF is a very small unit under it's shadow. BSF never wants to be giant. All we did was create another "clubhouse" for knife folks.

Alot of "sore" feelings are being tossed back and forth. My post here is to declare our reasons behind BSF, not to engage in diatribes or personal attacks, I turn the other cheek and suggest it be taken elsewhere. And even "elswhere" I am saying right now to Mr. Turber and any here who might be interested; I choose not to inflame, compound, or perpetuate any additional non-knife related jabs, needles, or personal traumas. It is a waste of everyone's time and good heart.

Everyone knows Mike and I have a touchy relationship at best. It was not always that way, but because of differing personal views on principles, we now do. He has every right to his views. And last time i checked this was the USA, so we have the freedom to have our views as well.

I will speak for myself and say if I displayed any "conduct unbecoming" in moments in the past I am sorry, but I will also allow myself to invoke the same Turberspeak that he often applies, "...yup i have bad days too...".

My "dogs' of war" lay sleeping in their doghouse.

Everyone has those "bad days" here on BFC, it is a part of being human. Fortunately many of the folks here eventually move on.

My intentions are that we all try to enjoy any knife related website, there is plenty of room for all of us.
smile.gif


If we caused any unhappiness or irritations to anyone you have our deepest apologies.

After all said and done we simply love knives, period.
biggrin.gif


Thank You.


------------------
PATRICK YORK MA
TRIPLE AUGHT DESIGN
"Audaces Fortuna Iuvat"
www.tripleaughtdesign.com
Your best resource for the elite standard in edged tools & extreme gear.

Also please visit this site:
B.uy S.harp F.orums
Buy, Sell, & Trade Your Knives & Related Gear.
http://www.knifecorner.com/buy-sharp/
velox@slip.net
 
The bottom line that tells the tales is traffic and participation on the forums. One needs only to look at Auctions and Classifieds to see that "It ain't workin".....

Even Forum posts appear to be very low.

 
That's the problem when you are on top - everyone else want's to drag you down into the mud.

There are several problems we have with what Patrick did when he opened up BuySharp, but the actual opening of it is one of the minor ones.

First off, several potshots have been made at us on all of the forums by a number of anonymous users who all seem to have "mythical" based usernames. These are people who we have no information on, yet they are claiming that we did them wrong. This may or may not have happened, but when confronted on it, amazingly, there's no response from them. Of course, naturally they lack email addresses as well, so there's no way that we can contact them to resolve any problems - if they even exist. Hermes would be one of those.

Whether or not these people are actively involved with BuySharp or not - it's awfully convenient that these people have no history prior their slamming us are now come out of the woodwork.

Second, Patricks permissions were turned off because we wanted to see where he was going before he continued to use our site to advertise his own. He already spammed several members. He went out his way to promote his site and two other sites (namely KnifeForums.com and Microholics.com) in the threads (plural) on BladeForums.com. You'll see no mention of them on the other threads, nor any mention of us, so any claims about it being "equally promoted" are pure BS.

Combine that with the fact that this is a direct attempt to sabotage our classifieds and you can see the concern we have. In addition, you'll notice here, in announcement from the administrators of BuySharp they denigrate us as well -
the place for the everday "Knife Nut" to be able to buy and sell knives and related material without having to give up his or her's first born.
If they are willing to sell their first born for $1.49, that's their business... You guys are willing to criticize us for our actions, but I am not seeing any reciprocity for stuff like this.

If Patrick wants to promote TAD, that's fine - he's paid his money and has a banner, he's earned the right. We'll make no bones about that. But promoting a competitor site while trying to sabotage our own is asking a bit much.

Third, we're getting forwarded tons of email that hits below the belt - talks of Boycotting BladeForums.com, how we're mercenary and the like - again, instead of contacting us directly, some people choose to just talk about us behind our backs.

Finally, our opening 1SKS was out of necessity. We've done everything we can to make BladeForums.com work, and yet nothing from it seems to put food on our tables. How many of you would do something like this, and incur the expenses we have, without getting anything in return? None? I thought so. Without 1SKS, BladeForums.com would have closed in March or April. If you are going to fault us for trying to earn an income, please walk a mile in our moccassins.

So, yes, we've had to make some hard decisions. When you take the risks, that's what happens. If you don't do anything, it's easy look pretty. Anyone can take shots at you when things go wrong - but at least we're trying to make this work.

But the result is that BladeForums.com is the largest knife related site in the world - we have the most traffic, the most members, the most bandwidth, the most manufacturers, the best content, etc. That's a result of the discussions that you guys create. But in the end, someone has to foot the bills.

Anyone want to compare stats? I'll be more than happy to. We'll pass over 60GB of information this month. Even including the days that our server logs were down (6 out of 27 so far), we've had over 8 million hits this month. We've passed over 41 Gb of information as of today, even without the 6 days of available traffic analysis. We show more than 100,000 pages each day. All of this has a cost.

I've looked at the stats of the competition. They aren't even 1/5th of the size of us. It's a whole different ball game when you aren't dealing with the same issues. BladeForums.com is still the best bang for the buck when you are trying to sell, find information, buy, etc.

I'd love to go back to the days where we only had to pay $100 per month to keep this site going. But those days are long gone. And if we go down, what makes you think that the next person isn't going to have to pay the same bills *if* they can reach the same levels you guys brought us to?

You can criticize all you want. Hell, I'll even agree with you on certain things.

So, in the interests of making everyone happy again, we're willing to work with you guys.

You want free for sale forums? Fine, we'll turn them back on. Dealers want free for sale forums? No problem, we'll make them free for dealers as well. That should make everyone happy.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Personally, I want BFC, specifically, to remain operational. Others may do it, but nobody does it better!

Maybe some of you folks don't understand how the numbers work in network delivery, but Mike and Spark have been paying out of their orifices for our pleasure, and for some people's business - even when that business directly competed with their own. I'm sorry, but THAT'S not fair.

Mike and Spark are in a tough spot here, because we all gab so much, and every time they try to find a FAIR, REASONABLE way to get it paid for, a bunch of people who seem to believe that some things in life actually are free, close ranks and start moaning.

Frankly, I'm finding the "Who? Little old me?" attitude from Patrick to be more than a little condescending. At least admit that you're in this to take advantage of the BFC decision. Admit that you're helping to stir the pot of dissension. Admit that you know that this will kill BFC's hopes to defray their costs with the classified ad revenue stream (if anyone believes that $1.49 counts as a revenue stream) before they get a chance to build it in a way that both users and the proprieters can live with. Admit that you knowingly did this in order to drink directly from BFC's well.

Patrick, you may say that you're doing this "for the knife community", but don't try to bullsh1t me by saying that you don't think this will ultimately hurt the knife community through it's divisiveness and it's potential to hamstring BFC's attempt to break even. You're too smart NOT to know these things.

At least fight standing up, and let everyone know what your intentions are instead of hiding behind a forced smile and saying sweet, condescending things through tightly gritted teeth.

Frankly, I find this "for the knife community" line you're spewing far harder to take than $1.49 charges and having to read small type (until they figure out how to make it bigger).

------------------
AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
C'mon Brian. Yes, Patrick's taking advantage of an opportunity in the marketplace by opening BSF. But Mike and Spark are also reacting to market forces by re-opening the free For Sale Forums. You don't really believe that they're doing it because a handful of people complained, do you? You aren't that naive. If that were the case, they would've done it a month ago. The free F/S forums are re-opening for a couple of reasons. First, the traffic and number of ads in the classifieds sucked. Secondly, because traffic and the # of ads increased drastically at KFC, not to mention the fact that another free F/S forum opened at BSF.

Also, you didn't really believe that $1.00 - $1.49 ads were going to come close to paying the yearly fees for BF ($60K IIRC), did you? If so, simply multiply $1.49 by the number of total posts in all of the F/S forums combined. You do the math.

I'm glad the F/S forum is back. I also hope Mike and Spark find a way to make this site self-sufficient. Pay-per-ad might work, I just don't think it will work in the format they used.

------------------
Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
No Kelly, that's where you are wrong.

I took notes on what happened when we closed down the For Sale Forums. KnifeForums.com did get an increase in for sale posts, but their traffic did not increase anywhere near the number of for sale posts we got daily. You'll notice that there wasn't much of a spill over on the other posts either. If you want to play a numbers game, just look at the daily active topics - it's there for anyone to see.

Likewise, we saw a minor dip in the number of posts in the other forums, but again, it was minor. We still wound up with nearly the same level of daily traffic in the other forums - it's almost like those who want to buy or sell for the most part, don't bother hitting the other areas.

Second, if it wasn't for the unbelievable amount of complaining over a piddly fee and minor format nits, I have every confidence that the classifieds would have worked. But, you can't make everyone happy, and the overall effect here was that you had a few people making enough noise about it that it had problems. It takes a certain amount of time to overcome inertia no matter what you do. Looking back, I can see a number of things I probably should have done differently. But, those are lessons learned.

Third, there's a matter of tactics. We've done everything we have out in the open - and have been more than forthcoming. Any question anyone has had, we've answered. Others have been less than honest in what they've done - the calls for "Boycot BladeForums.com!" is one example. The new trolls are another example. Then coming in with BuySharp was a nice "hamstring" move. Whether all of these are related, I don't know. But, I do recognize some underhanded maneuvering when I see it.

Cutting someone down is a lot easier than building something up. That's where the hard work is. It's easy to register a profile and just cause trouble. It's a bit more difficult to get out there and actually help people with their problems. Taking the high road is the most difficult one.

Heck, if we were acting this way, you wouldn't see any other dealer banners (other than 1SKS), or any Dealer For Sale posts, and there'd be all sorts of sudden trolls on the other sites making mischief.

Regarding the revenue stream comments, no, $1.49 wouldn't have paid all of the bills, but it would have helped, as will the auctions. Every little bit helps - which is why we don't just expect hat's and bags, or BladeForums.com knives, or banners, to cover all of the expenses.

But, that's fine. You guys can do what you want... we're more than happy to help you out where we can - because we don't just mouth the words, we're actually out there doing it, actively building a community. Heaven forbid we get any fruit from our labor.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
There's no doubt that they're re-opening because of the free forums eating their lunch.

But we, as a community, didn't give them the chance to modify the format to suit our needs. Those increases in traffic were our community members bailing as soon as things became slightly inconvenient or involved the slightest bit of expense. If we were behaving as a community, we wouldn't be so quick to leave Mike and Spark twisting, and we certainly wouldn't take advantage of a short-term hiccup to start our own new communities.

Mike and Spark have up until now, done this at great personal expense in both money and effort. We have benefitted from their effort. How hard would it have been to stick with them and help them make their idea work? How much longer do you suppose it would have taken? Do you suppose that the effort and time it would have taken from us would have even compared to what they've put in?

Am I blind to the fact that WOW is a business? Of course not. But Mike and Spark have provided me with relatively free content every day, for a long time now. I couldn't tell you the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that the paltry sum they've made on a couple of bargain basement knives certainly doesn't compare to what I've received.

Mike and Spark at least deserve our patience, and they certainly don't deserve our opening competing sites, or forcing them to give up what paltry revenue they can garner by undercutting them.

Is $1.49 going to easily cover $60,000 in operating expenses? Of course not. But didn't they at least deserve our help trying to make it work before we jumped on another bandwagon?
 

Patrick, you may say that you're doing this "for the knife community", but don't try to bullsh1t me by saying that you don't think this will ultimately hurt the knife community through it's divisiveness and it's potential to hamstring BFC's attempt to break even. You're too smart NOT to know these things....

mr. turner, first there was recdot knives started back the in the early days of knife-related forums, then KFC was created, then after that BFC, and now BSF.

your theory of projected "divisiveness" as a result of starting new knife forums can then be seen as started long ago.

At least fight standing up, and let everyone know what your intentions are instead of hiding behind a forced smile and saying sweet, condescending things through tightly gritted teeth....

uuh, sure okay...
rolleyes.gif



...but Mike and Spark have been paying out of their orifices for our pleasure....

no one can deny the work or effort put into BFC, but please, it is a commercial venture which funds this site, payrolls, but let's not hide under such veils of "altruism". with the inception of 1SKS several weeks after such rallying cry's of how BFC is barely scraping by, mr. turber boasts of enjoying his new corvette on the BFC forums.

mr. turner, that seems to smack a bit of disingenuous behavior.

mine and chuck cunningham's intentions for BSF were already clearly stated. you have the right to believe what you will.

First off, several potshots have been made at us on all of the forums by a number of anonymous users who all seem to have "mythical" based usernames. These are people who we have no information on, yet they are claiming that we did them wrong. This may or may not have happened, but when confronted on it, amazingly, there's no response from them. Of course, naturally they lack email addresses as well, so there's no way that we can contact them to resolve any problems - if they even exist. Hermes would be one of those.

Whether or not these people are actively involved with BuySharp or not - it's awfully convenient that these people have no history prior their slamming us are now come out of the woodwork....

spark, you may imply what you will, but in the language of mr. turner, those "conspiracies" are "bullsh1t".

this is spiralling into a pool of finger pointing and superfluous attacks and counter attacks.

i have already agreed to not advertize BSF here on BFC, my banner covers TAD, and that's all what i will post up about.

thanks to mike and spark for the traffic and the existence of BFC.

folks can visit what sites they wish and enjoy them as they wish.

------------------
PATRICK YORK MA
TRIPLE AUGHT DESIGN
"Audaces Fortuna Iuvat"
www.tripleaughtdesign.com
Your best resource for the elite standard in edged tools & extreme gear.

Also please visit this site:
B.uy S.harp F.orums
Buy, Sell, & Trade Your Knives & Related Gear.
http://www.knifecorner.com/buy-sharp/
velox@slip.net

[This message has been edited by pm (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Patrick, FYI, that Corvette was bought back in 1998, back when WOW-Distribution was still in business. BladeForums.com has never turned a profit, but if you don't believe me you are more than welcome to chip in on the costs here - I'll be more than happy to share the profits that you seem to think are overflowing the coffers. I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Second, regarding the "conspiracy" whether it's orchestrated or not, there's no denying what I've said - there are a number of "new member" who have popped up who's reason for being seems to be to denigrate us, and promote you. Ursa is one. Hermes is another. Their timing is awfully convenient. That their usernames are of a similar theme to your "Prometheus" is interesting. I could be entirely wrong, and I'll be the first one to admit it if I am, but I just find it to be one hell of a coincedence - especially how they pop up right before you open BuySharp.

Third, if you really think that B.S.F. is helping "build the community", I'll be suprised - your version of building and community must be differant from mine.

Best of luck to you in your new venture, Patrick. You'll reap what you sow.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 06-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
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