Spanish flea market finds & other stuff that might be of interest!

[gben]

I have a Peugeot pepper grinder that is very hi-quality.

 

[jake pogg]

Man,that is Such a beautiful looking iron!
It doesn't appear to be refined(mixed about)at all...It must've been some nice stuff,and handled very skillfully,to have been incorporated into this good looking little axe with no messing about!
Thanks so much for showing this!

 

[I'mSoSharp]

..It must've been some nice stuff

The funny thing is when it comes to etching wrought it's the lowest quality where the best patterns are found with most contrast, I assume the wrought in this axe head was rolled just once to have such a strong "grain".

Below is one of my " best" bits of wrought, I pulled it out of a canal in Yorkshire, UK, it was just a big piece of rust & took much cleaning, I haven't quite decided what it's fate is going to be yet. I have had a little play at forging wrought as I have a few old wrought barn hinges & reenforcements in my pile of stuff and & it's propertys are so different to steel as I'm sure you know.

Below is an adze (that I've posted before) that was also a lump of rust when I got it.

And a small hatchet head.

And just before anyone starts thinking Wrought Iron is only good for gnarly, below is a lock back knife I made with the body shaped from "well mixed" wrought iron, the liners & bolsters are one piece. It polishes up lovely & is very rust resistant.

 

[jake pogg]

Lovely stuff,all of it,wonderful to see even in photos...Thanks for showing this.

Below is one of my " best" bits of wrought, I pulled it out of a canal in Yorkshire, UK, it was just a big piece of rust & took much cleaning, I haven't quite decided what it's fate is going to be yet. I have had a little play at forging wrought as I have a few old wrought barn hinges & reenforcements in my pile of stuff and & it's propertys are so different to steel as I'm sure you know.

That's a particularly gorgeous specimen,that rod out of canal!
Good for you for having played with such at a forge,yes,the stuff is often marvelous,or has the potential to be.
It also can be quite evil,for example Hot-,or Cold-short,and Very difficult to work with.
(excessive P and S content,respectively).
That rod appears to have plenty of Si inclusions folded in there,it may get very "juicy" in the forge,with molten Silica running everywhere......Actually a rather nice feature that makes it self-fluxing,whereby it is always coated with molten Si protecting the surface from oxidation...
I'd try forging a small piece first to see how it'd behave.

I've corresponded for years with a good friend and mentor,Ukrainian smith Bogdan Popov.
At some point he made several trips to UK at invitation of Peter Crewe,a famed British archaeometallurgist;Peter brought him up there as an expert in experimental,hands-on historic forging... (Wales,i believe...?..it's been a while...).Anyway,one interesting thing that i heard about their studies is how intensely Refined much of that old(pre-Roman)work was...The ancients apparently Really went out of their way to homogenise their material,unsparing in time and effort...
That's what i found fascinating about that first axe you posted above-it looks like an unworked bloom was simply forged into a tool!
But i'm sure you know we all use the term WI only very approximately...It could in actuality be any number of different things,and from the very different periods too,from a simple bloom made by some peasant outside his cottage lost in the moor,to a fairly specialised product out of some mill,prepared by some arcane nowadays process...
And the variations in color and etch can be many things,from C content to any number of slags and contaminants,affecting the visual/textural scene for a number of different reasons.

But,YES-Beauteous stuff,all that non-homogenious iron!!!
And a Really sweet folding knife there boss...Great job on that,looks like it'd be a beloved tool much cherished by the owner...Excellent work.

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Just acquired this........

 

[Square_peg]

Just acquired this........

Old tire? Is it wrought?

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Old tire? Is it wrought?

Yes it's an old cart wheel tire & I thought it was wrought......
I etched a bit & it only showed a bit of dappled grey so I thought it was maybe well refined but after cutting half way through then breaking it, it looks like mild...... So from to !

Oh well, at least I have some heavy mild bar.........

 

[Square_peg]

Have you spark tested it?

 

[jake pogg]

It's probably true that it's a form of mild(technically so is WI,only of a puddled,and or piled sort(where those slag inclusions separate layers or strands of iron,a silica layer-cake).
But this mild in spite of being granular can be quite old;of an interesting composition(may have very little C,or may have very high P,or?);it can be fun to forge,and may have an interesting texture as etched...
Some,or none of the above...that's the world of old steel...

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Have you spark tested it?

I hadn't, so today I tried a bit on the grinder with a bit of mild for reference, the mild had shortish "streams" with quite a lot of "sparkles", the cart tyre had long streams with very few sparkles & those being at the end, so now again!

It's probably true that it's a form of mild(technically so is WI,only of a puddled,and or piled sort(where those slag inclusions separate layers or strands of iron,a silica layer-cake).
But this mild in spite of being granular can be quite old;of an interesting composition(may have very little C,or may have very high P,or?);it can be fun to forge,and may have an interesting texture as etched...
Some,or none of the above...that's the world of old steel...

I also cut a tiny cross section & sanded it quite fine, left it in some ferric for a couple of hours & below is what I found.
So it looks like it is a wrought, but as you point out it has the characteristics of mild, I wonder if it's just very refined? Rolled more?

A tiny cross section showing both sides after a ferric soak. The fine horizontal lines are sanding marks.

I may take a couple more cross sections from different areas & see what they etch like.

S Square_peg & J jake pogg thanks for your suggestions & help.

 

[jake pogg]

I wonder if it's just very refined? Rolled more?

I want to say "less"...Or rather,some other way
I really wish i knew.I read about it way more than is healthy,but it goes out the other ear...
They were SO many different processes...Most iron was made from cast iron,by de-carb. of some sort.
Puddling produced strands,and this granulation is due to some other process of decarburising cast.
Puddling takes place in a vat of molten slag,thus the inevitable silica inclusions.
This may be some early Bessemer process...but really not sure...LOCAL sources is often the key...Where were the cheaper grades of irom imported from(further west in Ebro-ish regions?And if so,what did they use?...Actually,the Catalan even had a special smelting process all their own...(see,there's just too much to know...

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Thank you J jake pogg . It makes sense that it probably wasn't rolled, I assume rolling is what creates the longitudinal "grain".
At some point in the future I'll use some & see what happens, the folding knife body I made in post 303 was a bit of the cleanest wrought I had & it was a joy to work with being soft, it polished up lovely & resisted corrosion so if not for forging it has other uses. I will try again in the forge one day, I know it needs to be near enough welding heat, that makes it "interesting" to use!!

 

[jake pogg]

It makes sense that it probably wasn't rolled, I assume rolling is what creates the longitudinal "grain".

Well...Probably just about all steel gets rolled.
"Grain",or rather "stranded" structure is created when a glob of iron is taken out of a molten bath,after it begins to solidify(through loosing C which raises the melting temp),and under a hammer or a roll-mill it is smashed but also folded and turned back on itself,welded several times by folding.
(How many times used to be designated by this often confusing term "refining";in early 20th c.USA WI came in grades ranging from once,to 5-times refined.
Unfortunately the same term may apply to other technical/chemival processes,such as the specialised "fining" furnaces and so on).

At some point in the future I'll use some & see what happens, the folding knife body I made in post 303 was a bit of the cleanest wrought I had & it was a joy to work with being soft, it polished up lovely & resisted corrosion so if not for forging it has other uses. I will try again in the forge one day, I know it needs to be near enough welding heat, that makes it "interesting" to use!!

That's a great attitude,respect,and good luck!

About the welding heat specifically,it too can go either way:
If it has over a certain critical amount of Sulfur,it'll turn to cottage cheese-like consistency and melt right through your tongs...condition known as Hot-shortness.
The opposite,that you may be referring to,is the Cold-short quality(caused by excess of P),which may make it brittle or cause it to "broom out",to delaminate...
(AND,there's all sorts of grey areas inbetween...AND,very high Phosphorus can,and historically has been,rather useful:It adds killer resistance to corrosion(the Column of Dehli),has bright-shiny appearance(used in composites in early Middle Ages for visual appeal),and also gives such steel an uncanny work-hardening qualities,where practically carbon-less steel can be used to edge tools....).

So as you can see precious little can be Ever said with any certainty.

I have a large stash of many different types of WI.And use it,or try to,when feeling particularly brave.And of course,get in All kinds of trouble...Just lost a forging yesterday!
We all still love it dearly...just not for the predictability!

You know,Ghengiz Khan was a title,of course,the man's name was Temujin.Apparently,in translation his full tribal name means:"The look in the eye of a horse when rider looses control".
I often get to see that WI looking at me Just like that!

 

[Ernest DuBois]

So as you can see precious little can be Ever said with any certainty.

But surely there are knowable variables involving limited speculations, particularly, beginning, wholly arbitrarily, let's say, for such raw materials from off Enlightenment times with ever increasing or traceable conditions up till modern material made to highly stipulated production parameters included with your acquisition, or at least googelable. We can think about reliable word of mouth transitions within a regulated tradition like a guild structure or even a specialist with solid historical/empirical grounding. Is there no linearity involved? Hopefully I've not quoted you out of context and my excuses if it is so.

 

[I'mSoSharp]

But surely there are knowable variables involving limited speculations, particularly, beginning, wholly arbitrarily, let's say, for such raw materials from off Enlightenment times with ever increasing or traceable conditions up till modern material made to highly stipulated production parameters included with your acquisition, or at least googelable. We can think about reliable word of mouth transitions within a regulated tradition like a guild structure or even a specialist with solid historical/empirical grounding. Is there no linearity involved? Hopefully I've not quoted you out of context and my excuses if it is so.

I agree.

 

[jake pogg]

Well...Certainly,there are parameters...Cultural(how precision-oriented were they);Geographical-what type of ores were involved,and what fuel was used to produce iron from it.
(remember,it took the Brits a Very long time to learn to use mineral coal,and Much very weird metal was produced meanwhile).
The parameters of specific purpose,for just how critical an application?(Eiffel tower is all WI,probably fairly nice stuff,too
People made iron in SO many different ways...In remote Scandinavia rural smiths freely controlled the C in their iron:If too much,they decarbed it right in their forge,not enough-they went the other way,enriching it,then quenching the carburised exterior(in the snow sometimes,it is said) and chipping off flakes of resultant steel to be welded together into an edge of something...
Iron was made Everywhere,and freely imported/exported among places,and mixed in batches and exported elsewhere...

So predictability would be tough.

I am trying to paint the Entire picture admittedly.In practice,one Does run into less forgeble material at times,and less often-into nearly un-forgeble.
(i have a few bridge timber bolts from the gold prospects up the Innoko river,they're wholly unworkable,at any temperature

Many don't realise that behind the whole myth of excellence of Japanese steelmaking(especially as relates to nihonto)lies the simple fact that they had Very poor quality ores,very difficult to work with.
Eventually after much time and skill building they did get on top of it,but often employing complex mechanical constructions of the object to offset the problems with material itself.
So when a connoisseur sits down to admire the sword surface,(wearing their special cotton gloves and with the light falling just So),there at some 10s of thousands of grit polish,just like with polished wood the illusion of seeing Inside material occurs(of course it's just surface).But what they see there,and gaze at for a long time,is the multitude of particles of different contaminants,and variations of structure,and all sorts of wonders of (essentially dirty)metallurgy.

Many people throughout history,especially early on,forged meteoritic iron.There must be tons and tons of it in circulation still,somewhere,farming implements,all kinds of stuff
There's still a big fat meteorite at the temple at Parambanan,and by applying for a royal decree a particularly deserving empu(a master-smith) may obtain a fraction,for a particularly worthwhile project...

I'mSoSharp or i would be Greatly puzzled if we got into a piece of scrap containing 7+% Nickel(and God only knows what else!

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Japan, Damascus & Toledo, all places that got famous for trying their best to mix up the impurities as much & as fine as possible, how many times nowadays do you hear "Damascus" being used incorrectly instead of "pattern welding"!

Changing the subject , a little brother (minus it's handle) turned up for the large Peugeot wood chisel........

Another Peugeot mark.

Two more, the big chisel & an adjustable wrench.

Drawknife.

As regards the meteorite, yes please
.

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Sometimes you find nothing, sometimes you find............

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Made a handle for the smaller chisel out of holly same as the larger one. Shortened the larger one a little, think it's better.
It'll be interesting to see how holly fares in use.

Just a couple of weeks between them, from the same holly log, the larger ones colour is beginning to mellow compaired the smaller ones near white.

 

[Square_peg]

I didn't realize holly had such nice color. I've always just seen it as white. Here it's usually too small to be of any use. And it's a terrible invasive that we're trying to get rid of.