Sprint runs!

[KeithAM]

To the people who paid the $600.00 it was worth it to them! I see no greed or selfishness here. They sold something they owned, to a person who was willing to pay the price. The seller was graciously sharing, and offering up an item that they owned, so that the buyer could enjoy it as he or she wishes. The seller was not hoarding or saving the item, which he could do. We are not entitled to the knife or anything else for that matter. Only Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - note the word "pursuit" - it doesn't mean the receipt of!

Any transaction at these prices is between a willing seller and a willing buyer. No one is being forced to buy the knife, and a limited run knife is a pure luxury item, not a necessity of life. To the extent having a knife is a necessity of life, most people seeking limited runs already have plenty of them. If not, there are lots of great regular production knives to fulfull that necessity.

 

[dsmegst]

Any transaction at these prices is between a willing seller and a willing buyer. No one is being forced to buy the knife, and a limited run knife is a pure luxery item, not a necessity of life. To the extent having a knife is a necessity of life, most people seeking limited runs already have plenty of them. If not, there are lots of great regular production knives to fulfull that necessity.

But when a greedy customer buys up the entire stock of all available copies or at least as many as he can of a limited model with intentions of flipping the knives for a profit, I think we can call it a chicken-poop move on his part. It's not illegal or wrong, just greedy.

A lot of people complained and bitched about a certain online retailer when he bogarted a large number of 2009 Spyderco forum Natives and sold them off ebay for a profit. He didn't break any rules or laws. But we came away with a sour taste in our mouths. How is that any different?

I'm getting tired to chasing the illusive Sprints, pre-ordering in several places since they don't know how many they are getting, and even then either missing out or end up with too many. Oh, well. That's what I get for being an addict.

 

[KeithAM]

But when a greedy customer buys up the entire stock of all available copies or at least as many as he can of a limited model with intentions of flipping the knives for a profit, I think we can call it a chicken-poop move on his part. It's not illegal or wrong, just greedy.

A lot of people complained and bitched about a certain online retailer when he bogarted a large number of 2009 Spyderco forum Natives and sold them off ebay for a profit. He didn't break any rules or laws. But we came away with a sour taste in our mouths. How is that any different?

I'm getting tired to chasing the illusive Sprints, pre-ordering in several places since they don't know how many they are getting, and even then either missing out or end up with too many. Oh, well. That's what I get for being an addict.

I understand your point. Like I said before, I have no problem with a 1 or 2 per customer limit, and its in the best business interests of manufacturers and dealers to impose such limits so as to foster the good will of their customers.

 

[230grains]

I much prefer capitalism, thank you. I missed out on the m4 Millie, I REALLY wish I didn't, if I want one now I'll have to pay more money. My mistake, someone elses gain. Everyone should be able to make a profit on something that is theres if they see fit, the early bird gets the worm. I'd respect spyderco less for doing what you suggest than just putting them out there up for grabs. That's the nature of the game.

Now I would like to see more "sprint run" variations offered on a longer term basis, not as limited, but with the same high end steels/locks etc.. Every time a sprint run comes, I get lazy and don't see it in time etc and I miss out.

 

[ZippoThisKnifeThat]

TO ADD

The Irony of flipping a knife for profit is that it does indeed take a willing buyer to pay the PREMIUM price demanded. If NO ONE was willing to pay the higher prices the Seller would have NO CHOICE, but to either horde the sprints or LOWER the prices. If originally the seller purchased to sell he is more inclined to sell lower than keep a bunch of blades at a loss.

As a community we are partially at fault for the inflation of limited knives.
If we work together and control demand as a community we would not have the issue of such highly inflated prices, BUT as many here are addicts, many are willing to pay more.

 

[JNewell]

I understand your point. Like I said before, I have no problem with a 1 or 2 per customer limit, and its in the best business interests of manufacturers and dealers to impose such limits so as to foster the good will of their customers.

I am not trying to antagonize or argue......but does anyone think this could be achieved without having the manufacturer either limit sales to direct-from-manufacturer sales or dictating terms to dealers who might be unable or unwilling to impose a limit? Even if there is a limit, we all know that even a minimally motivated person can easily evade these limits. To me - my opinion - it's a waste of time.

 

[garnto]

But when a greedy customer buys up the entire stock of all available copies or at least as many as he can of a limited model with intentions of flipping the knives for a profit, I think we can call it a chicken-poop move on his part. It's not illegal or wrong, just greedy.

A lot of people complained and bitched about a certain online retailer when he bogarted a large number of 2009 Spyderco forum Natives and sold them off ebay for a profit. He didn't break any rules or laws. But we came away with a sour taste in our mouths. How is that any different?

I'm getting tired to chasing the illusive Sprints, pre-ordering in several places since they don't know how many they are getting, and even then either missing out or end up with too many. Oh, well. That's what I get for being an addict.

in an online retail environment noone cares about you or anyone else, its all about the money(to an extent). if you are going to get pissy over the price they chose to place on a certain item, well then you are the type of buyer noone wants.

I mean no offense by that, it just so happens that thats how it works. sure a few people may be pissed over charging more on sprint runs, but the fact of the matter is, is that they will make more money off selling those few sprint runs at a higher price then you or the other few pissy people would have brought them.


the fact that you would recommend imposing a buying limit makes me think that you are a self entitled whiner. which is no better than someone who is 'greedy' IMO

 

[KeithAM]

Even if there is a limit, we all know that even a minimally motivated person can easily evade these limits. To me - my opinion - it's a waste of time.

I don't know if this is true. Roger has imposed limits with some of the recent runs he's sponsored. I don't know how far he goes to enforce it, though I think 10 knives to one address or on one credit card would be a huge and easily spotted red flag. So I'm not sure "minimally" is accurate. Different name, credit card, email address and shipping address for each knife? Sounds more than minimal motivation would be required to me. If Roger continues to do it he must think it works to some extent, or he wouldn't bother.

Also, there's nothing "anti-free market" about such limits. Part of the freedom of a free market and the freedom of contract, is that a seller can sell impose whatever lawful conditions or limits he wants on the sale of his goods. Roger, having good business sense, would rather make 200 customers happy with a sprint run of 200 rather than only a few. It's just good business.

 

[CharlesIV]

This is how America gets down. There are people in this country who can't eat due to greed. I would expect nothing less from them. My only question is since spyderco sees how much their sprints go for on the secondary market why don't start charging the retailers more per unit. I think they should get more of a piece of the pie since they are the ones who made it in the first place.

 

[pinetreebbs]

Shocking news, the world is not fair, not everyone is a winner, everyone will not be handed a trophy for 'participating' and not everyone is going to get that next hot sprint run knife.

 

[Reeek]

That's a valid opinion but I'd still wager that there is a difference between the "customer" to KAI, Spyderco, BM or any other well intended MFG versus what the "customer" is to a Knifeworks or any other dealer for that matter. It's not totally invalid to argue that even though the MFGs cherish their customers and rely on them to pay the bills and turn their profits, the wonderful dealers we have the opportunity to buy from these days have a much more personal relationship with their customers. The Knifeworks of the world are certainly going to try their best to not only make all their return customers get in on the gravy when these sprints are sponsored but to also reward their best customers which can easily run into the hundreds and thousands for a premium dealership like Roger's. It makes more sense to me from a dealer's perspective to try and spread the love amongst their many loyal customers who enjoy a more personal relationship than with the MFG (in general) and it doesn't smell as much like the notion of the MFGs imposing a limit or God forbid, our government.

Obviously, we, the members of such a great forum like BF, are a grey area because we do manage to develop a closer relationship with the MFG through this medium but I still think we represent a numeric minority for the MFG. The flip side is a single forum of BF's magnitude can probably come pretty close to keeping some dealers in business single handedly too.

I don't know if this is true. Roger has imposed limits with some of the recent runs he's sponsored. I don't know how far he goes to enforce it, though I think 10 knives to one address or on one credit card would be a huge and easily spotted red flag. So I'm not sure "minimally" is accurate. Different name, credit card, email address and shipping address for each knife? Sounds more than minimal motivation would be required to me. If Roger continues to do it he must think it works to some extent, or he wouldn't bother.

Also, there's nothing "anti-free market" about such limits. Part of the freedom of a free market and the freedom of contract, is that a seller can sell impose whatever lawful conditions or limits he wants on the sale of his goods. Roger, having good business sense, would rather make 200 customers happy with a sprint run of 200 rather than only a few. It's just good business.

 

[Buffalohump]

Well, I'm pleased my thread has generated some debate as I feel its a thorny issue that needs to be looked at.

The bottom line is that a limited edition of anything will always generate intense interest. Unfortunately I fear that some of this interest is there purely because there is money to be made.

I don't have an issue with someone buying a sprint run out of genuine interest, deciding they don't like it or want it, or need the money, and then flipping it for a profit. Fair game!

But I DO have an issue with people buying several of the things and selling them off piece meal purely to turn a profit.

The only way I can think of that might prevent this is for the dealers to limit sales to one per customer. As has been noted, Roger at KW already does this with sprints that generate considerable interest. Kudos to him!

I hope other dealers follow suit. I believe Spyderco could influence this if they wanted to and I honestly believe it would be in this community's best interest.

And by community, I don't mean communism.

 

[garnto]

Well, I'm pleased my thread has generated some debate as I feel its a thorny issue that needs to be looked at.

The bottom line is that a limited edition of anything will always generate intense interest. Unfortunately I fear that some of this interest is there purely because there is money to be made.

I don't have an issue with someone buying a sprint run out of genuine interest, deciding they don't like it or want it, or need the money, and then flipping it for a profit. Fair game!

But I DO have an issue with people buying several of the things and selling them off piece meal purely to turn a profit.

The only way I can think of that might prevent this is for the dealers to limit sales to one per customer. As has been noted, Roger at KW already does this with sprints that generate considerable interest. Kudos to him!

I hope other dealers follow suit. I believe Spyderco could influence this if they wanted to and I honestly believe it would be in this community's best interest.

And by community, I don't mean communism.

are the buyers on the secondary market not part of a community? do you feel you deserve the knife more than someone who is willing to pay more? do you feel that you should be guaranteed a knife just because you want it?


lets say spyderco themselves raised prices enough so that dealers had to charge what the secondary market would normally charge. would you not then complain about why spyderco charges so much?

 

[iandh]

This is America and the capital of capitalism.

I already was starting to formulate my reply to this comment before I read it, because I knew it would be made.

Capitalism is based upon the creation of value by innovation. Multiple resale of an item for profit does not create value, it causes price inflation.

Not to mention which, if most people were exposed to pure, unadulterated capitalism, they wouldn't like it very much. It is a nasty, brutal system. It is unfair by design. Those willing to take advantage, gain advantage... and there's only so much advantage to be had.

Frankly, I find people who do this the lowest common denominator. America was founded on innovation and development, capitalism was only the framework. Without innovation, capitalism is nothing, because there is nothing to fuel market growth.

Anyways, if you haven't guessed, I respect money earned through innovation and hard work. This is neither.

Also, there's nothing "anti-free market" about such limits. Part of the freedom of a free market and the freedom of contract, is that a seller can sell impose whatever lawful conditions or limits he wants on the sale of his goods. Roger, having good business sense, would rather make 200 customers happy with a sprint run of 200 rather than only a few. It's just good business.

Exactly. Voluntary market control can be just as capitalistic as market control prevention. It's all part of the game. If people get the idea that a dealer is watching out for their interest, then the dealer is also watching out for their own interest by default.

 

[Buffalohump]

Dude, what are you talking about? Do you understand the difference between buying and reselling purely for profit and buying and reselling because you are tired of the knife, have seen something else you like, or need to raise money for your wife's anniversary present? I dont know how else to explain it.

are the buyers on the secondary market not part of a community? do you feel you deserve the knife more than someone who is willing to pay more? do you feel that you should be guaranteed a knife just because you want it?


lets say spyderco themselves raised prices enough so that dealers had to charge what the secondary market would normally charge. would you not then complain about why spyderco charges so much?

 

[DavidZ]

Shocking news, the world is not fair, not everyone is a winner, everyone will not be handed a trophy for 'participating' and not everyone is going to get that next hot sprint run knife.

+1 :thumbup: I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Lycosa]

Wut about the sprint-runs?

 

[The Deacon]

Limits sound good, but not all multiple purchases are made by speculators and hoarders. What happens when the dealer for an exclusive run sells CONUS only, you want one, and one or more of your buddies in AK, HI, the military, or a foreign country also want one? Or you live in New York, the dealer won't ship here, you have a friend in another state, but he wants one for himself too.

Paul

My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

 

[dsmegst]

in an online retail environment noone cares about you or anyone else, its all about the money(to an extent). if you are going to get pissy over the price they chose to place on a certain item, well then you are the type of buyer noone wants.

I mean no offense by that, it just so happens that thats how it works. sure a few people may be pissed over charging more on sprint runs, but the fact of the matter is, is that they will make more money off selling those few sprint runs at a higher price then you or the other few pissy people would have brought them.


the fact that you would recommend imposing a buying limit makes me think that you are a self entitled whiner. which is no better than someone who is 'greedy' IMO

No one is arguing against reasonable profit by the retailers. We're talking about hoarding for profit and over-inflated prices. Price gauging is not good for long term business. If I feel I got screwed by a dealer, that's the end of my patronage.

And if you think online dealers don't care about customers, you're wrong. They know who their regular customers are and go the extra mile to ensure return business. How do you think many of us get the rare editions and limited models? Hook-ups happen in the online business as well.

 

[Buffalohump]

See post about the world not being fair.....

In all seriousness, its not a perfect solution. However, I feel something needs to be done. Either Spyderco increases the run on the ones they KNOW are going to be highly sought after, or the big dealers limit it to one per customer. Either way, I just want one!

Limits sound good, but not all multiple
purchases are made by speculators and hoarders. What happens when the dealer for an exclusive run sells CONUS only, you want one, and one or more of your buddies in AK, HI, the military, or a foreign country also want one? Or you live in New York, the dealer won't ship here, you have a friend in another state, but he wants one for himself too.

Paul

My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam