Spyderco Consumer Announcement

The internet...

Spyderco's exponential growth the past ten or so years coincides with the internet revolution.

Coincidence?

MAP is targetted squarely at online dealers.
 
Then raise the wholesale cost to those Internet superstores by several percentage points based on sales volume. If they don't like the slight price increase then they can stop buying and the smaller businesses will take up the slack, as long as they try to be competitive.

I didn't bother reading that specific article you linked to but there are several really good, honest dealers and retailers that backed out of dealing with Benchmade and Zero Tolerance when they instituted MAP pricing simply because these smaller guys ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT remain competitive with places like knife center, knifeworks, blade hq, etc. once MAP took effect.

The articles I've read from knife news that talked about this subject didn't mention those guys.

What's not talked about are the smallest dealers trying to gain ground in the market by offering the lowest prices. That's the only way to gain customers away from the well known sellers without dumping a ton of money into marketing. Amazon and Walmart, etc., are their own problem. There's no way Ron Smith, independent spyderco dealer trying to scratch his way up into a viable business, can compete with Blade HQ, not without being able to offer knives at a lower price and giving better customer service. With MAP it robs Ron Smith, independent dealer, from any true competitive standing.

If you were a disinterested buyer, would you buy from Ron Smith or Blade HQ if the product were the same price? You know as well as I do you'd go with the known entity.
That's not true for me. I bought many knives from Jim Howe and have never bought from Blade HQ. I mainly go with knifeworks and CS. Why? Besides better prices, a sense of better customer service. I feel like simply knowing Roger at KW and Jeff at CS makes a difference. They seem like knife nuts. Knife center and bladehq seem more big business like. Sometimes I go with GP because they are 4 hours away and I have bought in person before.

I think those major online stores plus a few others can compete with Amazon and propping up mom and pops and brick and mortars while it makes my heart feel better is not in our best interests. They won't go as low as MAP, so who cares. Their final destination is nonexistence anyway most likely.
 
While it may help knifecenter, blade hq, and other similar large knife dealers, it hurts the small up and coming dealers.

If you're not an already established, well known knife dealer you could not step in and start your own business. Not when you can't advertise better prices AND better service. An up and coming business sells for lower profits because their name isn't known. This takes that away and is guaranteed to crush small guys while funneling most sales to the places like blade hq.

What's the incentive for small guys to carry inventory and make mandatory minimum sales when they have to work much, much harder? Before they could just advertise and sell the knives for 5 or 10 bucks less than blade hq or knifecenter or whatever and draw business that way.


It is the opposite in my experience.
I have little stake in online conversations like this... and typically avoid them... :)

But.....
The way I have seen it is; if you make the prices even, it will eventually help to level the playing field.

It will eventually draw people to shop more local and choose where they spend their money based more on quality of service and location more than saving a few dollars at a high-volume (typically) lower service retailer (which I see many die-hards are nearly religious about defending :eek: ).

A good friend of mine owns 2 local bicycle shops - a Specialized Bicycles, and Giant Bicycles dealer.
Since Specialized has enforced a similar MAP style pricing on current model year products, he has seen a sizeable increase in sales of those bikes, and many more locals now buying local. At a quick glance, it makes little sense to many people who just think of it as less of a deal.
If his prices are the same as his competitors, he has more incentive to offer above par service to gain loyal customers, so that way people no longer travel to the larger next town over to buy at a bigger store just to save a few dollars on final price (which used to happen, because the larger competitors store pushed much more volume so they could afford to undercut profit margins and still be successful.)


For us, as just individual consumers, yeah it may suck right now though (especially those of us with no local shop). But now maybe there's more possibility of seeing a local dealer pop up and hopefully thrive, because of you - shopping local because you will now be able to handle the knife in person, chat with the shopkeeper, AND pay the same price as Amazon/KW/etc.

Wasn't any need for MAP back when we all shopped local anyway. Now everybody undercutting everybody and it eventually devalues the product/service... makes us consumers happy to pay little for high value here and now, but in the long run things cannot last that way. It will move up the chain, from retailer to distributor and up to impact Spyderco, and that legacy may start to crumble if we as consumers aren't willing to pay what they value their own manufactured products at.
Like Sal said, he can lower prices if he lowers tolerances or uses inferior materials. Other than that, there hasn't been one other suggestion as to other ways they can lower prices.
 
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No dealer has to charge more, or less, than they do now.

The dedicated buyer (that's you and me) may need to make a few more mouse clicks to get the same best price as he/she does now. The day I cease to be capable of that, please take away all my sharp things.

The casual buyer just looking at the best advertised price will now be as likely to buy from a small specialist retailer as from Amazon etc, (and 40% off msrp is hardly being being robbed)

Even the doziest casual buyer might be more likely to "smell a rat" at a fake knife advertised at a now obviously too cheap price. Even if advertised at the permitted price they will probably see no benefit from buying from Alibangdotcom or an EBay trader who mainly sells diapers, rather than from a specialist domestic retailer.

I don't really see the problem, to be honest. Or rather, there seems to be only a very modest inconvenience to us, but potentially significant advantages elsewhere in the system .... and down the line those could turn out advantageous to everyone (more/better dealers, less fakes, stronger Spyderco).
 
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No dealer has to charge more, or less, than they do now.

The dedicated buyer (that's you and me) may need to make a few more mouse clicks to get the same best price as he/she does now. The day I cease to be capable of that, please take away all my sharp things.

With other knife companies' MAP policies, this is actually not an option anymore. Both ZT and BM enforce their policies such that retailers cannot give you the lower than MAP price at all. I suspect that Spyderco's policy will be enforced in the same way.
 
Interesting. Six pages later and we're still arguing over whether MAP pricing amounts to legalized price-fixing. To quote Mr. Spock, "fascinating".
 
Interesting. Six pages later and we're still arguing over whether MAP pricing amounts to legalized price-fixing. To quote Mr. Spock, "fascinating".

Agreed. I'm honestly not sure why there's a debate.

Price fixing is collusion between would-be-competitors operating at the same level in the economic chain of product distribution to squeeze out the little guys. It's a horizontal dynamic. MAP (advertised price) and MRP (actual mandatory price point) have historically been distinguished in legislation and court rulings from price fixing per se.

The legal arguments say MAP and MRP are vertical—between manufacturer and retailer—and as such create non-price-related competition between retailers. With universal price points, retailers can't rely on deep discounting to sell product. Instead, they have to work harder on advertising and costumer service to generate sales. Manufacturers typically alter their wholesale markups to retailers to compensate for the MRP, as well. The legal logic is that this creates more service benefits to EU consumers as retailers compete to offer more add-on services.

So yeah. According to the law, MAP =/= price fixing.

But here's my issue. What about those buyers (like myself) who couldn't care less about add on services, and just want value reflected in the bottom-line price? MAP and MRP essentially enforce the philosophy that says consumers should value add-on services/benefits. In some industries, I think that's fair and valuable. But in the knife industry where for any issue related to the knife you consult the manufacturer, not the retailer, it's less of an issue for me.

I'd rather just buy a bottom-line priced knife no-questions asked, than one more expensive with all the best service included. Which, to be honest, is why most of my knives come from the Exchange.

When it comes to Spyderco's move here, I'm in the wait-and-see bunch.
 
The problem with that thinking is that somebody has to buy knives at MAP pricing and be willing to take a hit to sell them below MAP pricing on the Exchange before someone like you can buy them for the price they want to pay. Would you be willing to do that?

What this amounts to is American manufacturers pushing American consumers offshore to look for bargains. And believe me, bargains are out there to be had. Five of my last six knife purchases have come from offshore manufacturers. I know I'm not alone by having moved in that direction.

Instituting MAP pricing to save a manufacturer's dealer network at the risk of reducing its price competitiveness and alienating its consumer base doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It also doesn't change the reality of the marketplace. Cost efficiencies available to internet retailers won't just disappear when MAP pricing is enforced. Those efficiencies will simply be passed along to manufacturers savvy enough to take advantage of them.
 
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What this amounts to is American manufacturers pushing American consumers offshore to look for bargains.

This MAP still allows for 40% discounts.
Most stores don't give discounts of that much anyway, and the ones that go beyond it don't go far beyond ("What? Only 40% discount instead of 42%? Screw that, Imma gonna buy my knives at the gas station now.").

This is much gnashing of teeth about nothing of any importance, really.

Of course, the internet IS mainly for whining about stuff that doesn't matter, so continue present course! ;)
 
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I hear you stabman. There's no doubt that Spyderco's MAP policy still allows for generous discounts compared to most. But given how expensive Spyderco knives have become, I still think they're shooting themselves in the foot with it.

Time will tell, of course . . .
 
I hear you stabman. There's no doubt that Spyderco's MAP policy still allows for generous discounts. But given how expensive Spyderco knives have become, I still think they're shooting themselves in the foot with it.

Time will tell, of course . . .

If MSRP goes way up, then it'll likely be an issue.
I think they'll try to price things reasonably though, as I'd imagine they want to sell a fair bit of knives.

Running a business is hard, and involves way more variables than my poor brain could handle. :D
I remember back some years when I was looking into opening a used book store, and wondering how the hell I'd be able to move enough books to pay rent and stuff, with no employees to have to pay...it looked rather daunting, and I wondered how anyone stayed in business.
Since then, I've watched most of the used book stores in Windsor end up closing shop; guess I was right about thinking it would be hard to make a go of it.

Spyderco has remained in business for quite a while though, so they must have a better handle on things than I would have. :)
 
If MSRP goes way up, then it'll likely be an issue.
An S30V blade and two pieces of carbon fiber for an MSRP of $280 is already "way up" as far as I'm concerned, stabman. For me at least, it's an issue right now.
 
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An S30V blade and two pieces of carbon fiber for an MSRP of $280 is already "way up" as far as I'm concerned, stabman. For me at least, it's an issue right now.

But at 40% off, that's $168, which is fine as long as the design is good. :)
 
The knife in question is the Positron. It's gotten mixed reviews. Several dealers are selling it for less than $168, at least for now. That won't last, of course . . .
 
Sure seems like lots of folks complain about the pricing on the collaboration items.

I suspect the price is high because the guy (Brad Southard in this case) wants to get paid for use of his name and design. That sounds fair to me.

Looks like his knives are 2x what the Spyderco versions are.
 
The knife in question is the Positron. It's gotten mixed reviews. Several dealers are selling it for less than $168, at least for now. That won't last, of course . . .

Of course on sites here, they're selling it for $220-$240. :eek:
 

Yeah, I'm not getting one. ;)
Although to be honest, that particular design didn't speak to me.
I would have paid the $300 the Farid K2 was going for most places here, if I hadn't stumbled across that one site that had it for $225 with free shipping.
Of course, I noticed that right after I ordered mine, that site jacked the price up to $300 as well. :D
 
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