Spyderco Consumer Announcement

ALLHSS said:
That works too, have a good one.

I hope the Gayle Bradley 2 comes out before the change.
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If you can get one at a better price, then grab it for sure! :)

Here in Canada, the exchange rate has ended our days of inexpensive Spyderco's already. :(
Well, I did manage to get one that was handily priced in Canadian dollars at par with American, and free shipping...I noticed that after I bought mine though, the price shot up by $75.
They must have noticed the price needed to change.
 
I haven't bought a Benchmade, or even considered buying a ZT since their MAP pricing decision. I will probably pick up one or two more Spydies before the new pricing starts. I'm not too upset. The size of my collection is starting to border the ridiculous. I do feel a little sorry for the newer knife collectors, though.
 
It's been said already but my opinion is the mfg sets the price he sells to his dealers but after that it shouldn't be his concern what the dealer sells for. That's his business. If he wants to sell at cost and not make money then that's his issue. If he wants to jack his price up to the point no one buys from him then that's his issue as well. The vast majority of dealers will figure out what price the market will pay and which will support the dealer staying business and will sell for that price. When a mfg steps in and starts setting the price it seems as though they are simply trying to control the price (hold it up) to make their product look "better" than the competitors.

I love Spyderco and will continue to buy and own them. However, I'll likely be forced to buy more in the secondary market than new since price shopping is likely to go out the window on NIB knives from dealers.
 
well this is unfortunate :(

i don't have much disposable income so this will definitely impact how many spydercos i purchase
 
As a consumer, I hate price increases. At the same time I also can see problems faced by businesses.

To be a successful manufacturing company you must provide a good product at a reasonable cost, but that is sadly only part of the equation. How do you get your products out to consumers? Amazon has shown that they want to be the one stop shop for everything. Groceries, online entertainment, goods, etc. Think about it, would you like a future where Spyderco knives were ONLY available on Amazon?

I have seen the replies that mention things like survival of the fittest, could you imagine running a business where you only had one customer? Monopolies are a bad idea for a reason. Consider if Spyderco only had one dealer outlet, lets make up a fictional one and call it 'Shamazon'. Say our fictional outlet decided that they needed more profit, so they told Spyderco that they needed the knives to be cheaper to them. What could Spyderco do? If they wanted to stay in business, they would need to make them cheaper, either cheaper steel, less inovation, poorer quality, etc. On the other hand our fictional entity Shamazon may decide to make more money by raising the price to the consumer, since they are the only dealer left what would we do? I support Spyderco.

To avoid that type of scenario, Spyderco has to do something to protect and promote a healthy and diverse group of dealers. MAP pricing is possibly the most effective way to do this, and while it may mean a modest increase of price to some consumers, I support Spyderco's efforts to take the longer view and be around for my grandchildren to be able to buy a spyderco, 'Just like Grandpa used to carry.'

Many people won't buy a knife without holding it first, and not every knife consumer takes a trip to Amsterdam, Blade, or Golden Colorado. To reach those consumers there must be a network of brick and mortar dealers. There have been reports of people getting counterfeit knives from Amazon, I support other dealers that insure I am getting what I ordered.

Grizz
 
It is too early to comment on Spyderco's new MAP policy. First, we have to wait and see what happens, how it is implemented, and what its impacts are for the dealers and consumers.

As far as MAP policies are concerned (I'm talking about MAP in general, not about what Spyderco is planning to do), they look like a way to protect the big dealers from the smaller, nimbler dealers, that have more streamlined operations and less overhead costs and, therefore, can charge lower prices. It's like a big guy vs. little guy thing (isn't it always?). I can't help but see it as a way to stifle competition and, possibly, innovation. The funny thing is: the big guys were once the little guys. They were given the opportunity to grow and become big guys in their own terms. Now, they seem to prefer to shield themselves behind MAP policies and would like to deny the same opportunities they had then. I just hope Spyderco doesn't forget that they once were the little guys, too.
 
MAP is designed to protect the little guy. Spyderco doesn't make any more money, in fact it will cost us to implement MAP.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
MAP is designed to protect the little guy. Spyderco doesn't make any more money, in fact it will cost us to implement MAP.

sal
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This makes perfect sense, folks. Think about it - the little guy is not squeezed out of selling Spydercos or squeezed out of business altogether by the big boys because the big boys can afford to undercut them. It eliminates perfect competition in the marketplace, but ultimately affords us as buyers more choices about where we would like to buy.
 
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on_the_edge said:
This makes perfect sense, folks. Think about it - the little guy is not squeezed out of selling Spydercos or squeezed out of business altogether by the big boys because the big boys can afford to undercut them. It eliminates perfect competition in the marketplace, but ultimately affords us as buyers more choices about where we would like to buy.
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Maybe I need help understanding the whole MAP idea. How is this not going to squeeze out smaller dealers?

Here is an example-
Big Box Store/Large Online Retailer- charges $66 for a Delica, but offers free shipping because they can afford $3 to $6 dollars to do it. Amazon gets a ton of sales for this very reason. Or they'll offer combo deals, another way to up your sales.

Small Online Store/B&M- Charges the same $66 for a Delica but can't offer free shipping because they can't afford to throw the $3 to $6 away for 1 knife purchase. It gets even worse for a Mom & Pop whom also have the overhead of employees. They also can't do stuff like free junk or combo deal offers. It will not give us more choices.

Now be honest, I mean it, 99% of people are going to go for the free shipping. MAP does nothing but undercut the smaller businesses in a different, although less noticeable way using either free shipping or cheap junk freebies. This will do anything but help out smaller dealers. It will literally kill them.

A lot of folks buy from forum sponsors here, including myself. We are not the real world, we are likely 1 in 100,00 or 1 in 500,00 or even more. We are a small community of like minded folks. This will hurt sales for forum sponsors, I myself bought my first Spydie from Amazon. If I wasn't so scared of getting a fake I might have continued to do so. I have to spend $90 or more for some of my favorite sponsors to include free shipping. Amazon does it at $35.

I've been thinking about this subject since I posted in the other thread. I was kind of in the wait and see category, I hate to say I'm in the "No more" category now. I bought 11 Spydies this year-Delica 4(Gifted), Sage 3, Manix 2 G-10, Manix 2 Black DLC, Manix 2 Lightweight CTS-BD1, Tenacious Black Oxide Coated(Gifted), Stretch VG-10(Gifted), Caly 3.5 VG-10, Para Military 2 Digicam, Endura 4 Blue FRN, Para Military 2 Digicam DLC, and I bought the Sharpmaker. I'd say I'm a pretty dedicated customer. That's why this seems so terrible.

I know it won't make much of a dent by my no longer buying Spydies. Add up all the guys like me not buying anymore and it might start to sting if not outright hurt. I feel kind of sad saying this, collecting Spydies has been enjoyable and I'll miss it. Unfortunately for the companies going with MAP, other companies are stepping up their quality and prices are usually the same if not less for comparable knives built in the same countries. It's a sad day indeed:(
 
mastiffhound said:
Maybe I need help understanding the whole MAP idea. How is this not going to squeeze out smaller dealers?

Here is an example-
Big Box Store/Large Online Retailer- charges $66 for a Delica, but offers free shipping because they can afford $3 to $6 dollars to do it. Amazon gets a ton of sales for this very reason. Or they'll offer combo deals, another way to up your sales.

Small Online Store/B&M- Charges the same $66 for a Delica but can't offer free shipping because they can't afford to throw the $3 to $6 away for 1 knife purchase. It gets even worse for a Mom & Pop whom also have the overhead of employees. They also can't do stuff like free junk or combo deal offers. It will not give us more choices.

Now be honest, I mean it, 99% of people are going to go for the free shipping. MAP does nothing but undercut the smaller businesses in a different, although less noticeable way using either free shipping or cheap junk freebies. This will do anything but help out smaller dealers. It will literally kill them.

A lot of folks buy from forum sponsors here, including myself. We are not the real world, we are likely 1 in 100,00 or 1 in 500,00 or even more. We are a small community of like minded folks. This will hurt sales for forum sponsors, I myself bought my first Spydie from Amazon. If I wasn't so scared of getting a fake I might have continued to do so. I have to spend $90 or more for some of my favorite sponsors to include free shipping. Amazon does it at $35.

I've been thinking about this subject since I posted in the other thread. I was kind of in the wait and see category, I hate to say I'm in the "No more" category now. I bought 11 Spydies this year-Delica 4(Gifted), Sage 3, Manix 2 G-10, Manix 2 Black DLC, Manix 2 Lightweight CTS-BD1, Tenacious Black Oxide Coated(Gifted), Stretch VG-10(Gifted), Caly 3.5 VG-10, Para Military 2 Digicam, Endura 4 Blue FRN, Para Military 2 Digicam DLC, and I bought the Sharpmaker. I'd say I'm a pretty dedicated customer. That's why this seems so terrible.

I know it won't make much of a dent by my no longer buying Spydies. Add up all the guys like me not buying anymore and it might start to sting if not outright hurt. I feel kind of sad saying this, collecting Spydies has been enjoyable and I'll miss it. Unfortunately for the companies going with MAP, other companies are stepping up their quality and prices are usually the same if not less for comparable knives built in the same countries. It's a sad day indeed:(
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It's the opposite.

It is to stop Amazon and Walmart from selling these knives for near/at wholesale cost, which regular retailers could not afford to do and would therefore consider dropping the line up from their stock. Now whether the retailer is big or small, they are on more level playing field.

I have already watched this same thing occur in other industries I have interest in, and it is not all bad and evil like some show and twist it to be...
 
SpeedHoles said:
It's the opposite.

It is to stop Amazon and Walmart from selling these knives for near/at wholesale cost, which regular retailers could not afford to do and would therefore consider dropping the line up from their stock. Now whether the retailer is big or small, they are on more level playing field.

I have already watched this same thing occur in other industries I have interest in, and it is not all bad and evil like some show and twist it to be...
Click to expand...

Here's the problem, Amazon is not always cheaper. For instance the beloved black/satin PM2
Knifeworks.com/Small retailer

Taken from their page-http://www.knifeworks.com/spydercopara-military2.aspx#.Vk1i3HarTIU

Spyderco Para-Military 2, CPM S30V, G-10 Handle
Suggested Retail: $197.95
Sale Price: $110.15
You Save: $87.80

Amazon/Big Box Online

Taken from their page- Almost forgot, no posting non forum sponsor links. Here is the price though,
Spyderco ParaMilitary2 G-10 Plain Edge Knife
by Spyderco
282 customer reviews | 4 answered questions
List Price: $197.95
Price: $126.14 & FREE Shipping. Details
You Save: $71.81 (36%)

Hell, NationalKnives is selling the same PM2 for $110.99, also beating Amazon.

How about the DLC PM2s?
NK-Black and Camo-$122.99 for both
KW-Black and Camo-$121.55 for both
Amazon-Black for $149.95 and Camo for $159.95

The only PM2 that Amazon wins at (just barely mind you) is the Camo/Satin at $109.94.
KW-$110.15
NK-$110.99


Amazon is not always cheaper, it's really hit or miss and the prices can change daily. And they are cited the most as the reasoning for the MAP. Knifeworks on the other hand have very steady prices and are usually cheaper than most places. Now equal them out at 40% and Knifeworks is not going to do very well. You can't just glance over the other aspects of shopping like free shipping, freebies, or combo deals. Knifeworks will ship free at $99, Amazon at $35. Yeah the knife will be the same price but the extras mentioned will make it so most(as in close to all) will buy from Amazon. Save one PM2 variation, all of those sales pre-MAP would have no doubt went to KW or NK.

A very large amount of Spydercos are in the less than $99 category on Knifeworks site (166 out of 256, over half!) and most are the types of Spydies that got myself and others into Spyderco. All those potential sales will go directly to Amazon with free shipping or Walmart with free store pickup. You can't just look at it in one dimension. The overall outlook for places that can't afford to ship out the bulk of Spyderco's knives for free or give away freebies will lose and lose badly.
 
mastiffhound said:
Maybe I need help understanding the whole MAP idea. How is this not going to squeeze out smaller dealers?

Small Online Store/B&M- Charges the same $66 for a Delica but can't offer free shipping because they can't afford to throw the $3 to $6 away for 1 knife purchase. It gets even worse for a Mom & Pop whom also have the overhead of employees. They also can't do stuff like free junk or combo deal offers. It will not give us more choices.

Now be honest, I mean it, 99% of people are going to go for the free shipping. MAP does nothing but undercut the smaller businesses in a different, although less noticeable way using either free shipping or cheap junk freebies. This will do anything but help out smaller dealers. It will literally kill them.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, I think you and I should agree to disagree. If I can have the knife today by going down to my local mom and pop shop rather than waiting for Amazon to send it to me in a week, that has value to me. If I know the mom and pop shop will give me good personalized customer service and that buying from them will keep a local business around, then that has value to me. If I can put my hands on three different knives all of the same model and choose which one has the smoothest action, that has value to me. If I want to buy from an authorized seller vs somebody who may or may not be an authorized seller, then once again, that has value to me. Don't get me wrong - I have never had a problem with Amazon's customer service or any product that I have received through them. But don't overlook the fact that mom and pop shops can offer things to the prospective buyer that Amazon cannot offer. That some of these intangible benefits may ultimately result in a slightly higher priced knife does not necessarily result in a worse deal for all buyers.
 
I know all of us hate the potential for a price increase. Also, I don't love the idea of artificially determining price. That said, I do understand both sides. I've bought fewer knifes from Benchmade because of their MAP policy, but I'm optimistic. Hopefully, and from what it looks like so far, Spyderco's prices might not rise so drastically.
 
mastiffhound said:
Here's the problem, Amazon is not always cheaper. For instance the beloved black/satin PM2
Knifeworks.com/Small retailer

Taken from their page-http://www.knifeworks.com/spydercopara-military2.aspx#.Vk1i3HarTIU

Spyderco Para-Military 2, CPM S30V, G-10 Handle
Suggested Retail: $197.95
Sale Price: $110.15
You Save: $87.80

Amazon/Big Box Online

Taken from their page- Almost forgot, no posting non forum sponsor links. Here is the price though,
Spyderco ParaMilitary2 G-10 Plain Edge Knife
by Spyderco
282 customer reviews | 4 answered questions
List Price: $197.95
Price: $126.14 & FREE Shipping. Details
You Save: $71.81 (36%)

Hell, NationalKnives is selling the same PM2 for $110.99, also beating Amazon.

How about the DLC PM2s?
NK-Black and Camo-$122.99 for both
KW-Black and Camo-$121.55 for both
Amazon-Black for $149.95 and Camo for $159.95

The only PM2 that Amazon wins at (just barely mind you) is the Camo/Satin at $109.94.
KW-$110.15
NK-$110.99


Amazon is not always cheaper, it's really hit or miss and the prices can change daily. And they are cited the most as the reasoning for the MAP. Knifeworks on the other hand have very steady prices and are usually cheaper than most places. Now equal them out at 40% and Knifeworks is not going to do very well. You can't just glance over the other aspects of shopping like free shipping, freebies, or combo deals. Knifeworks will ship free at $99, Amazon at $35. Yeah the knife will be the same price but the extras mentioned will make it so most(as in close to all) will buy from Amazon. Save one PM2 variation, all of those sales pre-MAP would have no doubt went to KW or NK.

A very large amount of Spydercos are in the less than $99 category on Knifeworks site (166 out of 256, over half!) and most are the types of Spydies that got myself and others into Spyderco. All those potential sales will go directly to Amazon with free shipping or Walmart with free store pickup. You can't just look at it in one dimension. The overall outlook for places that can't afford to ship out the bulk of Spyderco's knives for free or give away freebies will lose and lose badly.
Click to expand...

None of those places where you pulled prices from are necessarily "the little guys" they are trying to protect. More like the shop around the corner from you where you otherwise would have never gone nor priced any Spydercos at... many of those little shops often get "showroomed", where people go in, handle a dozen knives and ask all the questions about steels/materials. Then after being educated many consumers turn around and screw the shop by going directly onto one of those sites you pulled prices from and buying there.
 
mastiffhound said:
Here's the problem, Amazon is not always cheaper. For instance the beloved black/satin PM2
Knifeworks.com/Small retailer

Taken from their page-http://www.knifeworks.com/spydercopara-military2.aspx#.Vk1i3HarTIU

Spyderco Para-Military 2, CPM S30V, G-10 Handle
Suggested Retail: $197.95
Sale Price: $110.15
You Save: $87.80

Amazon/Big Box Online

Taken from their page- Almost forgot, no posting non forum sponsor links. Here is the price though,
Spyderco ParaMilitary2 G-10 Plain Edge Knife
by Spyderco
282 customer reviews | 4 answered questions
List Price: $197.95
Price: $126.14 & FREE Shipping. Details
You Save: $71.81 (36%)

Hell, NationalKnives is selling the same PM2 for $110.99, also beating Amazon.

How about the DLC PM2s?
NK-Black and Camo-$122.99 for both
KW-Black and Camo-$121.55 for both
Amazon-Black for $149.95 and Camo for $159.95

The only PM2 that Amazon wins at (just barely mind you) is the Camo/Satin at $109.94.
KW-$110.15
NK-$110.99


Amazon is not always cheaper, it's really hit or miss and the prices can change daily. And they are cited the most as the reasoning for the MAP. Knifeworks on the other hand have very steady prices and are usually cheaper than most places. Now equal them out at 40% and Knifeworks is not going to do very well. You can't just glance over the other aspects of shopping like free shipping, freebies, or combo deals. Knifeworks will ship free at $99, Amazon at $35. Yeah the knife will be the same price but the extras mentioned will make it so most(as in close to all) will buy from Amazon. Save one PM2 variation, all of those sales pre-MAP would have no doubt went to KW or NK.

A very large amount of Spydercos are in the less than $99 category on Knifeworks site (166 out of 256, over half!) and most are the types of Spydies that got myself and others into Spyderco. All those potential sales will go directly to Amazon with free shipping or Walmart with free store pickup. You can't just look at it in one dimension. The overall outlook for places that can't afford to ship out the bulk of Spyderco's knives for free or give away freebies will lose and lose badly.
Click to expand...

While I respect the work you put into compiling this info, you're looking a a very narrow example that backs your argument, and there's a flaw in part of it. The flaw is that the DLC PM2 prices you listed for Amazon are not being sold by Amazon, they're being sold be a dealer who fulfills through Amazon. That dealer won't necessarily be able to price as aggresively as Amazon could if they were selling it.

Let's look at a few different examples.

The Endura

Cutlery Shoppe gives 45% off MSRP on all FFG models for a price of $63.25 regardless of color.
Amazon beats that price on all 6 colors with prices ranging from $60.62 (49% off MSRP) to $62.39 (47% off MSRP)

The Delica gives semi-similar results.

Cutlery Shoppe sells at 45% off MSRP for $60.50
Amazon doesn't beat that on all colors, but they have three (green, grey, & purple) that clock in under $60, with the green ringing up at $56.36 (49% off MSRP).

What about something more expensive like one of the Sage models.

The Sage III goes for $137.50 at CutleryShoppe.
Amazon sells it for $133.34 (47% off MSRP to CS's 45).

The Manix 2 G10 sells for $86.90 at Cutlery Shoppe
Amazon sells it for 51% off MSRP at $77.49.


I found examples that support your argument as well.

The Sage II is more expensive at Amazon that Cutlery Shoppe.
The Manix 2 Translucent Blue is more expensive at Amazon
The Sage I is more expensive at Amazon

And I always get free shipping at CutleryShoppe that is nearly as fast as my Amazon Prime shipping.
 
I object to MAP on principle and there are some legal restrictions that apply to horizontal versus vertical MAP.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...ws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

I'm sure Spyderco is aware of these restrictions and will walk the line but it is still a free market issue to me..

There are no brick and mortar knife stores within 200 miles so I never get to handle knives except at knife shows. Personal service is worth some intangible price to some people, including me, but the value of that service should be a personal decision. If the market supports it great otherwise consumers will pick the lowest priced competitor and others will be eliminated from the marketplace.

I love Spyderco and respect Sal and Eric but I disagree with them on principle. I won't say that I won't buy another Spyderco product but I'll certainly stop and think about it first I I know the number of my purchases will significantly decrease.
 
With all due respect, in the last 7 years I've lived or stayed a significant amount of time in about 4 completely different areas of the country. Bass pro and cabelas were the only places to find any spyderco knives consistently. One place (Jacksonville) had a small "knife store" but it was more of a junk lot than an actual business. Another place (DC) had a couple of places within an hour or two but those places also had a bigger online presence than anything. I couldn't find anything in Tucson. I couldn't find any decent place from San Antonio on south except one small place that charged exactly MSRP, and we all know Spyderco's MSR prices are ridiculous. I don't know how they sold any or even stayed in business. Most of their stock was covered in dust and had to be several years old. I currently live in the mid-Atlantic region and the closest places are SMKW and Knifecenter at several hours away for both, they are also as big or bigger online so why drive hours and hours to pick one up for free when, at most, I have to pay 5 bucks to have it shipped?

And if there are two places selling the same knife at the same price and one offers free two day shipping and the other charges 5 bucks or so for USPS ground, guess which place I'll buy from?

Being able to walk into a mom and pop shop has nothing to do with this for the vast majority of people because there are almost no decent mom and pop knife shops in America. Internet sales are where it's at. Now with MAP pricing it's all about who's willing to take the hit on shipping. Amazon with bulk rate contracts? Nope. The local Walmarts and Bass Pro shops? Nope. It's the local mom and pop shops who can't offer free, fast shipping. It's the local mom and pop shops who don't have the utter domination of Internet sales. It's the mom and pop shops who now feel justification in selling things at above 40% off MSRP.

Does this bring parity? Absolutely not. It only hurts the consumer because they'll continue buying at the same places they always have been, just at a higher price.
 
^
Well said.

I'm the type that gets hit the hardest... A Spyderco "aficionado" with no Spyderco dealers within 100 miles from me, and the two knife/gun shops several counties away price their dozen or so Spyderco models laughably high. All my purchases are online.

While I understand why they are doing it, mainly insuring that MORE dealers continue to sell the brand instead of outright dropping the brand because of getting priced out by loss leaders and big chains.... I'm not at all pleased... Just glad that it's 40%, which really is a saving grace. Who knows, we might even get lucky and our favorite online dealers are able to "add to cart" sale prices like they used to do BM and ZT's before they went full on enforcement.

If it's all about protecting the small guy dealers, then MSRP is another thing to pay attention to, time will tell if Syderco relaxes on the MSRP to compensate and LOOK OUT FOR THE REAL LITTLE GUYS... US. ;)
 
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