SPYDERCO news for 2001!

Sergiusz Mitin · Nov 22, 2000

<center><font size=4>SPYDERCO news for 2001!</font></center>

Just while ago I have received SPYDERCO Fall 2000 Press Kit, Dealer Catalog for 2001 and Photo CD with some pictures. Very impressively and tastefully printed catalog in tropical sunset color composition, nice photos and superb printing. All knives are pictured also from clip side. I really do not know should I delight about this or inversely. If all catalogs will be issued so perfectly I'll lose a great deal of my job reviewing knives.
A lot of additional info like one-hand opening diagram, knife anatomy schemes (including new Compression Lock), steel chart, the explanation of main points of steel production and properties and many interesting things more make this catalog bringing great deal of knowledge and attractive for reading.
SPYDERCO did really great work issuing it.

And here are some my very first impressions on their new knives:

I'm happy to know that Peter Herbst's knife is back! I really like this elegant design which joins European classic lines with American high technology. Since this knife wasn't catalogued in Y2K I was afraid SPYDERCO withdrew from it's release. Now it is back and I can't wait when I could review this elegant folder here.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33656163&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=left SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33656162&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>Bob Lum's Chinese Folder (left) looks sweet and at the same time very useful and versatile with it's flat ground VG-10 blade (I like this steel a lot as well as flat ground blades!). Handle's shape looks like pretty comfortable for even heavy cutting. Think it will be nice daily carry utility knife, pretty looking and very helpful in lot of circumstances.

Another Bob Lum's tanto Clipit now is available with plain or black coated blade and G-10 handle.

Frank Centofante's Vesuvius (O-o-o-oh, Vesuvius!) with elegant blade and pretty pearl inlayed handle looks like very strong competitor for BENCHMADE Warren Osborne's Axis Lock folder. I like a lot this group of knives, which I do not know how to call: strong gentleman's? light tactical? or maybe nice utility? Vesuvius is equipped with new Compression Lock. I noticed that SPYDERCO turned back to tried and true ATS-34 steel...
Beautiful SpyderLady Joyce Laituri explained me that the turn to ATS-34 steel was done on Frank's request. The lightweight Zytel version with shell inlay probably will be available even before two G-10 (plain and with shell inlay) versions.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33656165&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=right SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33656164&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>Bill Moran's Featherweight (right) with flat ground drop point blade is nice addition to previous model with upswept point blade. It seems to be even more versatile - really nice hunting/outdoor/camping companion.

Somewhat sad news: Michael Walker's Lightweight is not catalogued more. What a pity! This little but comfortable to handle knife is my strong favorite among small lightweight folders.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33729848&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=left SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33729847&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>The Large Dyad (left) allows you to have two full-sized blades in the single compact package. Flat ground blade with thin high performance edge is hair popping sharp and allows to cope with the most precise cutting tasks. Fully serrated Sheepfoot style blade provides powerful cutting if needed and reduces the harm possibility in emergence situations. Both blades can be operated with one hand. Sure, it is somewhat less comfortable to hold than single blade spydercos but for someone who needs two different blades but do not want to carry two or more different knives it is real goal! I'm inviting police officers, firefighters, rescuers and more people who need a knife in their work but are weighted down with a lot of another equipment to take their look onto this modest but very useful knife.

Very surprisingly looks Massad Ayoob's folder. At the photo it looks like it would be partially opened but lock position displays that it is fully opened! Of course if I got this properly... But if so I really can't imagine how well or bad this knife will serve in utility tool role. I also can hardly imagine this knife in combat. With all respect to Massad's authority I would like more traditional knife design being forced to defend my life. For me this design displays the great deal of knife's basic function sacrifice for very disputable improvement of fighting abilities. In real life sawing fight I definitely would like to have the Starmate in my hand.
Naturally this is just my humble opinion based on pictures only.

I have already shared my impressions on James Keating's Chinook here. From entire Martial Blade Craft line the Chinook looks the least "exotic" but the most "knify". Just my opinion again.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33723085&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=left SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33723086&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>Somewhat funny experience I had with my Tie Clip Knife. This is diminutive but fully functional copy of well-known Police model equipped with tie clips. It looks sweet and for non-experienced person it is hard to believe that it is true knife. About month or so ago we (my wife and I) took part in certain quite boring but obligatory family do, the situation required to look decently so I dressed suit and clipped my tie with Tie Clip Knife. <a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33723088&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=right SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=33723089&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>Additionally tiring for me was the fact that all occurred pretty far from our home, so we had to drive with car. As driver I naturally couldn't drink anything alcoholier than coffee. OK, at the middle of the event aunt asked me to cut a part of pretty large grape twig. I clipped out and opened my Tie Knife making all present somewhat surprised. The lack of alcohol in my organism affected my manual dexterity very heavily, so cutting the twig I hardly didn't cut away aunt's finger. At this point all present were surprised even more because nobody expected this knife is true one. Fortunately no blood was spilt and no victims among humans occurred.
This was very impressive presentation!

Well Friends, a lot of nice knives are coming. Your wallets are really in great trouble

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Sergiusz Mitin
gunwriter
Lodz, Poland

Classified00 · Nov 22, 2000

Serguisz,
Was there any mention of diamond rods for the Sharpmaker? I've been hearing about these for awhile now.
Thanks!
Brent...

Burke · Nov 24, 2000

I'm curious as to what you base your comments on the Ayoob on Sergiusz. Are you just assuming it won't handle as nicely as a typical blade design, or have you experience with similar "dropped-handle" knives? To me, at least, it looks as though the handle should align the blade better for thrusting (as with Szabo's UUK), and perhaps even give a more secure grip for slashing. I can see, however, that it might not prove as comfortable for a saber grip, as is often used in general utility cutting. Just my two zlote.

PhilL · Nov 24, 2000

Originally posted by Sergiusz Mitin:

Somewhat sad news: Michael Walker's Lightweight is not catalogued more. What a pity! This little but comfortable to handle knife is my strong favorite among small lightweight folders.

[/B]

I agree this is a great little knife, I know most people go for the Native or Calypso, but the Walker lt/wt has always been one of my favorites it was my EDC for over 2 years.

At the NYCKS Sal had a whole display case with new Spydie prototype knives, including some large fixed blades. There's a lot of exciting things happening for Spyderco fans.

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"Will work 4 Knives!"
My PhotoPoint Site

Sergiusz Mitin · Nov 25, 2000

Brent,
I searched sharpener section in catalog carefully but no diamond rods for Sharpmaker were mentioned. What a pity, I'm waiting for them also!

Burke,
When I saw Massad Ayoob knife I was really curious how it works. Seeing knife detailed image and knowing dimensions it was no problem to make cardboard dummy trying to understand this design better. I also tried to imagine what I could do with partially opened Starmate, Military or Wegner. As result I have considered that "dropped handle" definitely is not for me but maybe it can work well for someone else. Or maybe I'm somewhat old-fashioned and I have missed some this design advantages...
Here is no negative suggestion like "it can't work anyway", simply I can't imagine how it could work for me. So far I'm remaining partial to straight blade-handle line (like Starmate) for defensive applications and curved in rear part handles (like Military or Wegner) for utility tasks.

Just my $0,43 - equivalent of 2 zlote

hybr1d · Nov 25, 2000

Hey Sergiusz, do you think you can post some pics of the other knives, since i have no idea what the other ones look like, such as the Vesuvius and the Ayoob folder. It would greatly be appreciated. Thanx

[This message has been edited by EiNLaNZeR (edited 11-25-2000).]

Full Tang Clan · Nov 26, 2000

But, what of the Gunting? What of...the Gunting?!!!

Sergiusz Mitin · Nov 26, 2000

Sorry Friends, I didn't post these photos because they were not included on Photo-CD. Here are some scans from SPYDERCO Dealer Catalog for 2001.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022620&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=left SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022619&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>This is a fragment of catalog rear cover (left), from top to bottom: Frank Centofante C66 Vesuvius, Bob Lum C65 Chinese Folder, Bram Frank C68 Gunting.

Dimensions and materials:

Vesuvius - 3 1/8" (79 mm) long ATS-34 blade, G-10 handle, weight 3.4 oz (96 g). Compression lock.
Chinese Folder - 3 3/16" (80 mm) long VG-10 blade, imperial green Almite coated aluminum handle. Liner lock. Eccentric pivot pin adjustable for wear!
Gunting - 2 7/8" (74 mm) long CPM 440V blade, G-10 handle is supported (if I remember well) with double steel liners, weight 5.9 oz (168 g). Compression lock. It is one very thorough knife!

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022615&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=right SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022614&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>This one I took a shot at SPYDERCO booth at IWA'2000 in March where I had an opportunity to play somewhat with it.
To illustrate my impression on this design I will quote some fragments of my discussion with Joyce Laituri:

Me: Bram Frank's Gunting was discussed on BladeForums numerous times. Honestly I do not like the idea on which this design is based. The knife is deadly weapon by nature and all ideas about "partial killing" or "less than lethal cuts" stand far from my conception how to use the knife in weapon role. On the other hand, if we are going simply to bang someone without cutting him each knife's handle will serve equally well, Tim Wegner's for example.
Joyce: I thought this too until I met Bram and understood his philosophy. The sharpened protrusions on the handle work as well as an actual Yawara stick. Bram demonstrated to me where and how to apply the protrusion to his hand/wrist and I could not believe it but I had him on the ground with tears coming out his eyes, completely controlled. His idea is that the knife be used in a non-lethal manner by controlling someone with the pressure points but also having a knife blade should the situation turn lethal. Interestingly (I had never thought about this before) where Yawara pressure points are applied, it hurts like the dickens for days afterwards but leaves no marks or bruises. A consideration for law enforcement people in our happy American court system where an officer can be sued for using non-lethal force even in a justifiable situation.
Me: No way I can consider myself as hand to hand combat expert (though I was forced to pass some credits in this subject during my life) so I can ask only one question here. Don't you think that knowledge where to press and good reflex, skills and physical condition to do it properly are more essential than used tool? My humble opinion is that key, pen or even plain finger (of course if strong enough) could cause the same effect if used properly. Additionally, I think this techniques are more useful to break passive resistance when fellow does not allow to put him handcuffs and to get him into police car but at the same time he does not attack officers. I can hardly imagine the use of these techniques in real-life defensive action when one or more bad guys attack you with knives, baseball bats or even with plain hands. Again, I can be wrong.
No problem, if someone thinks that if he will buy Bram Frakn designed knife this as itself will make him as good in hand to hand combat as Bram - let him be

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022611&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=letf SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022609&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a> Here is Massad Ayoob C60 (left). It has 3 5/8" (92 mm) long VG-10 blade and the black Almite coated aluminum handle, weights 4.3 oz (122 g). The deep carry clip can be placed on the either handle's side so this knife is fully ambidextrous. I would like this design much more if it would have straight blade-handle line.
I never saw this knife "in person" but playing with cardboard dummy I have made I considered that handle ergonomics could be very nice.

<a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022617&Sequence=0&res=high" target="_blank"><IMG align=right SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=222944&a=1651093&p=34022616&Sequence=0&res=high" border="2"></a>And here is Peter Herbst C53 (right). It has 3 1/16" (78 mm) long ATS-55 blade and titanium handle, weights 4 oz (113 g). Liner lock. As I already said I like this design a lot and I'm happy it is back. SPYDERCO probably had some technical (?) problems with this project realization. But if they have put this knife into next year catalog this should mention that problems gone and this elegant and stylish CLIPIT should appear soon.

Well Friends, some words in justification of my evaluations. They are extremely subjective and very biased but as I'm repeating continuously - I'm writer but not judge. One design I like more, another - less, another I do not like at all. So please let us do not start endless discussion what is better: red hat or small dog? Let everyone choose the knife which he or she likes the best and let he or she share impressions with us. Here is really enough knives to choose from and I hope we will do not run out of impressions.
To share our impressions honestly - this is something this Forum exists for, right?

[This message has been edited by Sergiusz Mitin (edited 11-26-2000).]

Carlos · Nov 26, 2000

I've heard that the Ayoob is supposed to work using a "straight wrist."

I think it may be too specialized for day to day use, but I'm waiting to hear how it works in the real world.

I can't wait for the Chinese folder to hit the stores. It is supposed to start shipping in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for these two reports.

[This message has been edited by Carlos (edited 11-26-2000).]

Burke · Nov 27, 2000

I like red hats on girls, and I hate small dogs. Seriously, Sergiusz, I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into writeups about knives, and I was definitely not trying to contradict you or argue about I knife I haven't even held. I was just trying to get at a little more detail about why you thought the Ayoob was a poor design for you.

Full Tang Clan · Nov 27, 2000

Sergiuz,

Thanks for the in depth review.

Once again, knife purchases are a very subjective thing.

RE: Bram Frank Gunting comments. I don't think it should deter anyone from buying it just because one doesn't practise knife-fighting. One can appreciate it simply from an "artistic" or aesthetic point-of-view, rather than it's functional form.

You can use the same argument with people who buy/collect medieval armour and swords. Most of these people probably can't even use one.

I must admit that I did not like the Gunting the first time I saw it as I thought the design was way too radical in appearance. I also felt -- and still do -- that it is somewhat small for a fighting knife. I think a REKAT Sifu is a much more formidable self-defense knife and you can use the butt end as a kubotan-type stick as well.

I also agree on your opinion on nerve attacks and that it takes a good degree of proficiency to make them work; along with factors such as leverage. Having a bit of experience with it, I know that finding a nerve point (as well as joint locks) in a real-life attack is critical and complex.

In martial arts classes, it is often practiced statically while the opponent ALLOWS you to find the point. You will not be afforded this luxury in a real-life attack against a moving target.

In other words, I realize that simply buying a Gunting will not make you a martial arts expert. However, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is a unique knife, handy size, has the new compression lock, and...it's a Spyderco!

anthony cheeseboro · Nov 27, 2000

Although the Gunting is getting the most press because it out in a limited fashion, the compression lock knife that really has me excited is the Vesuvius. Like Seguisz, I believe that this will be a great, elegant folder in the mold of the Spyderco Viele and BM 940. I can't wait for this knife to come out! I hope this knife is a high priority for Spyderco and it doesn't get delayed.

Joe Talmadge · Nov 27, 2000

Serg --Thanks for the post! Keep with the opinions,it makes the reviews more interesting.

Like Anthony, the Vesuvius is my most-anticipated folder. Looks like it'll be the first knife that will even come close to challenging the Axis as my 4"-blade fave.

I'm not at all impressed with Mas Ayoob's knife designs. With some specialized training I might come to like the more pistol-shaped folder. But in training I've found I use both straight and hooking thrusts, and a traditional-shaped knife works much better (for me) for hooking thrusts.

That Lum Chinese folder will definitely be worth a look.

Joe

Jody · Nov 28, 2000

Serg....I was so enjoying coming onto the forums and reading everyones opinions regarding their knife preferences....but you continue to have negative posts regarding the GUNTING. I don't see how you can enjoy your little neck clip knife or (toy knife) as I would call it, but the GUNTING and non-lethal cutting system doesn't compute with you?

I've found through the many, many.....many seminars I have participated in with Bram that most of the participants have little or no knife skills. Gee, we have managed to take all of these "unskilled" people and taught them very effective knife defense and GUNTING techniques in a matter of days. Yes, they will need to practice on their own to become better.....but they left the seminars knowing how to effectively use the GUNTING. We have handed the GUNTING to elderly ladies in their 70's and up and all of them were able to pick up the GUNTING and strike hard with the ramp in a tomahawk type strike. These women have no idea of how to defend themselves and are certainly no martial artists. But with only a five minute explanation on the GUNTING and how it can be used these elderly ladies were able to Tomahawk strike the Heck out of my hands and collar bone. You see my confusion and disagreement over your opinion that one would need to be as good as Bram in hand to hand combat to make the GUNTING work.

As for your opinion that a key or a finger can apply a joint lock as effectively as the GUNTING....Yes, you can apply joint locks with fingers and keys and hands or whatever....but I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that when you use the GUNTING for the same techniques it becomes much more effective and painful.

I see that the only way to change your mind is to let you feel the effects of the GUNTING first hand. You are not the first person I have invited to my school for a demonstration....But you are invited to come to my dojo in Miami Beach anytime you like and I will be more than happy to use the GUNTING to apply finger and joint locks to you and then you can tell me what you think of it.

I don't want you to take this as a threat, because it is not..I simply want to show you how effective this knife can be, I will be more than happy to hand over my practice GUNTING and let you apply the same locks to me or one of my students so that you can see first hand what a wonderful self defense tool the GUNTING is.

And no, my combat skills are nowhere near the level of Bram Franks, but I guarantee I will take a plug out of any "bad guy" standing in front of me with my GUNTING, either closed or open.

I don't know how the laws are in Poland, but here in the great UNITED STATES OF AMERICA lethal cutting can get you thrown in prison for a very long time. Bio-mechanical cutting can be effectively used to defend yourself against an armed attacker, and to defend yourself effectively in court.

BUT WE ARE ALL ENTITLED TO OUR OPINIONS NOW ARENT'T WE. I just gave you all a big dose of my opinion.

BRAM · Nov 28, 2000

yes.. I guess it is all a matter of opinion..
depends on where one stands to see the perspective of each knife...
sometimes one actually needs to understand the starting point...

OwenM · Nov 28, 2000

So now self-defense is illegal in the great US of A, huh? You may be better off with a dead attacker, than a surviving one who sues the crap out of you.
I find the Gunting interesting, but it is a specialized tool that will simply not interest most people. Why would it? The average person does not have any training, and anyone who is more worried about lawsuits or jailtime when their life is on the line, is not prepared to defend themselves, anyway.
Jody, do you practice applying finger and joint locks on people who are meanwhile kicking you in the groin, ramming a thumb through your eyeball, stabbing you with a knife, or punching you in the nose? That's reality.
A great concept, but it's not for me, personally.

Anyhoo, the Lum Chinese looks like it's right up my alley. I love the fact that you can change the clip for tip-up. I think it would be more of an opponent for the BM 940, than the Vesuvius (shoot, it's even the same color!). Curious to see the Vesuvius's compression lock.
Though the Herbst is larger, I can see a resemblance to the Walker. Could they be discontinuing it because of that? The Walker's a great little knife, just needed a better clip. Maybe the lineup's just getting crowded.
I wonder how these three knives (Herbst, Lum, Vesuvius) will affect each others sales, since they are similar in size, and all attractive packages?
Looks like Spyderco is really on the ball!
Thanks, Sergiusz.

[This message has been edited by OwenM (edited 11-28-2000).]

Jody · Nov 28, 2000

Joyce,
I hope you are keeping up with this thread....I completely agree with your opinions. We women have to stick together.

Jody · Nov 28, 2000

Owen,

When someone is in my face trying to bash my head in, no, I don't mess around with finger locks. I know when to use joint locks and when to escalate to more force. Obviously I would need to use more force if someone is in front of me trying to cave in my head.

I have been attacked on the street and I didn't use finger locks. Believe me, a few hard hits to various vital points on the body will do the trick. If he has a knife...so be it...so do I and I will use it. Finger locks do have their place and can be used effectively. You just have to know where and when they are appropriate.

As for the non-lethal cutting system. If you are attacked and the attack warrants the use of a blade, believe me Owen, if you gut someone or cut their throat or try any other lethal cuts....YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DEFEND YOURSELF IN COURT....Bio-mechanical cutting is much less severe, it still stops the attack and you are more likely to be able to justify your actions in a court of law. If you prefer the lethal cuts then maybe you should move to Poland and hang out with Serg.

BRAM · Nov 28, 2000

Unfortunately Owen..defense as "we think we know it" leads to big legal troubles..
Due to these liabilities has led to the design of the knives as they are..
Thats why we have MBC knives and those that aren't...
And my take on this is mitigated and evaluated by the LEGAL TEAM that works with me...
And those that teach for me, using edged tools, especially edged tools with the SPYDER on them need to understand and stay within the limits of the law..
Take anything out of context and it can be used to get your point made...
grab a finger out of the air? hit a moving point?
possible but highly improbable..
Hammer it? slam n jam it..THEN grabb it or strike a specific place?? Yes..its called DTL,
Destroy Trap and Lock... I believe Datu Kelly Worden has a PALADIN PRESS tape on that whole system / way of aproaching conceptual confrontations..with and without a tool....
Thats how its taught..and knife design is what keeps the process going..

Many LEO's and others are successfully using the right tool to do EXACTLY that..control an uncontrollable situation..without the BG's consent or being a willing cooperative person...

A Fisherman is DEFINATELY the tool to use to fillet fish..
A Delica / Endura is the choice for everyday..
Each tool has its place and is designed that way...
no one slips a design that isn't correct past Poppa SPYDER..

Oh well

I think in defending or commenting on this I might be off the thread..even if it is in spirit of the posting..
Plus you know it won't translate into ******* very well...

Joe..I'll leave the thread now...

Guys,and Jody..have a great day...

Joe Talmadge · Nov 28, 2000

I think the exchange here has been civil and informative, no reason for anyone to rush out of the thread as long as the tone stays this way. The Gunting is such an interesting design that I never seem to tire reading debates about its pros and cons. I have my own reservations, somewhat similar to Sergiusz's, but so many people have told me to get a Gunting and train with it before making up my mind, I'm keeping quiet for now. I've read the arguments by those who love the Gunting, and if it really works for me as they state, it'll be a great addition to my carry lineup.

Joe