Spyderco pricing policy

[Mike Turber]

OK Time for a new thread. I just got an interesting email! The new thread is titled CUSTOMER SERVICE!

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[Marvin Edgeworth]

OK, Bill McWilliams, I heard that. Although I'd already returned to the 'world' when I saw the photo of Hanoi Jane, with the troops in Hanoi, it left a lasting impression. Pity she didn't see fit to appear at the Hanoi Hilton - the boys there would have really appreciated her entertainment. Minor correction, not affecting the sentiments. The photo I remember is of her in a Hanoi anti-aircraft emplacement, the same AA used to shoot down MY Air Force buddies! I don't think she'd have wanted to get close enough to Americans to be in howitzer range!


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[This message has been edited by Marvin Edgeworth (edited 26 December 1998).]

 

[James Mattis]

Methinks any comparison between Spyderco's pricing policy and Hanoi Jane is a bit of a stretch.

There are other ways for a knife company to keep the "ELU" price under its control. I don't recall seeing anybody complaining about price fixing on A.G. Russell brand knives. Like Spyderco, but on a somewhat smaller scale, A.G. Russell designs and arranges for the production of some nice knives, including some of the better "traditional" pocket knives out there, and recently the only "traditional" production pocket knives I've seen out there in ATS34.

Discount Knives doesn't carry them. I don't carry them. Fred's Ammo and Bait up at the lake doesn't carry them. Acme Cutlery in the mall doesn't carry them. If you want them, you buy them from A.G. Russell, either through his catalog, or through his web page. The only (though significant) competition involved there is between the A.G. Russell brand and comparable models from other manufactureres.

If deep discounters of Spyderco knives actually become enough of a presence in the market that it becomes irrational for stores to carry them, or for Internet or mail order dealers with any amount of overhead to carry them, Spyderco could well go the same route as A.G. Russell. Add some phone lines, mail a bunch of catalogs, expand the web page, and sell direct - and not at a deep discount either, but more likely for the sort of prices that Spyderco's retail subsidiary, Ironstone (a good professional operation, where I've been a happy customer)(praise for one dealer is not to be construed as criticism of anybody else), is charging.

Steady and easy-to-find retail prices of down close to 60% of Spyderco's list prices will not be sustainable in the long run. If not MAAP pricing, or going the A.G. Russell route, then something else will come along.

I have a bit of a vested interest now in there being choices for people on where to get their Spydercos and other good knives, but I suspect that most of us, in the long run, would want to see choice continue. Handle a bunch of knives at Acme Cutlery in the mall, and buy one or two, and pay full freight. Buy mail order or off the Net or at a store that pays lower rent, and get a modest discount. Hunt around and ask about and dicker a little, and get a bigger discount and/or something extra thrown in. Get it down close to wholesale, and be entitled to brag about it.

Good hunting.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 

[Dan K]

JKM, Et Al,
I seldom even enter the local knife shops. Almost all of my knives have been purchased through Mail-order or over the 'Net. Most often the first time I see or hold the actual knife is when I open the box via UPS, USPS, etc.
Happy Trails,
Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan K (edited 27 December 1998).]

[This message has been edited by Dan K (edited 27 December 1998).]

 

[SDMatteson]

I think this whole thing is being blown way
out of proportion.Telling dealers what price
they advertise is a far cry from telling them
what they have to sell for.Spydercos change
falls in the minor inconvenience category
compaired with Benchmades change last year.
In defence of Spyderco,when they ship a model
,it can easily be found at any dealer who
carries the line and at a discount.Try to find an Axis lock.It can be done , but not
as easily as getting a price quote on a
Spyderco.As for the ELU thing,isn't that an
old rock group ?


[This message has been edited by SDMatteson (edited 27 December 1998).]

 

[James Mattis]

Before I became a "pusher" myself, I got my best customer service from mail order and Internet dealers. That's because the neighborhood knife store that had even better service (and paid high rent and charge full price) closed about ten years ago. A chain sporting goods store will normally have limited selection, and finding a sales clerk who knows the product is luck of the draw.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 

[Cougar Allen]

There's a whole spectrum between boycott and business as usual. For most people, most of the time, a company's policies and corporate ethics are only one factor among others in purchase decisions. Maybe it shouldn't be that way; maybe we should always make ethics our first consideration -- and our only consideration if a company is doing anything at all unethical -- but that would be inconvenient at times, and most of us are willing to do business with companies whose ethics we don't approve of -- when the issue doesn't seem to be a vital one, and if it would be inconvenient to take our business elsewhere. So, when the ethical issue isn't a vital one, it's only one factor we consider along with such things as quality of product, price, warranty, pleasant salespeople, etc.

I can't say I'm proud of it, but I often make decisions that way myself. I justify it to myself by saying it's enough to avoid doing business with companies whose practices I disapprove of most of the time, other things being equal or nearly equal or not too unequal, depending on how strongly I feel about that company's policies -- enough to have an impact on that company's future. For instance, years ago when the Florida orange growers had a spokesperson who was also an active advocate of bigotry and a boycott was called -- well, I happen to like orange juice, so I only cut down my purchases by about 80% instead of boycotting them completely. I figured that was enough; I was doing my share.

Before I read this thread I had decided to put Spyderco farther down my list of preferred companies. Not an absolute boycott because although the practice is unethical it's not *as* unethical as pricefixing, and knives are not a generic product and therefore an absolute boycott could be inconvenient for me. I was figuring if I really wanted a Spyderco knife I would look around and try to find one made by a company with more concern for their customers that I might like as well or nearly as well, and might not cost *too* much more, and only if I couldn't find one would I consider buying a Spyderco -- but I might end up buying it. So maybe I'm not perfect, but that kind of thinking is enough to influence corporations or drive them out of business if they won't listen, so I figure it's enough; I'm doing my share.

Reading the post from the Spyderco representative above has changed my mind and Spyderco has lost an customer they apparently never knew they had (apparently they thought I was an ELU, and an incredibly gullible idiot besides). I can't say it's a high-minded ethical decision, but if I were insulted that badly by a clerk at a local store I would never set foot across *their* threshold again, and nobody is going to insult me with such a pack of pathetic lies and get my business again.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Bill McWilliams]

You generally find that sportsmen, whether hunters, gun collectors or knife collectors, are people with principles. Most are aware of their rights and support organizations like Ducks Unlimited or the NRA to preserve them.
The politics of manufactures of their sporting tools do have a bearing on the "consumer relationship".

Behavior is important to us, as evidenced by all the replies to this thread.
Spyderco can do anything they want to. So can Benchmade,and so can I.
I already have Benchmade's Auto Spike (X2),AFO (X2),Cub (X2), 3500 (X3) and just do not find any further offering attrative.
I used to frequent their forum in the Mark McWillis days, and was there when Walt Welch was banned. I just deleted them from my "favorites" menu, and have not returned to date.

JKM, I want you to know that I gave away over half a dozen Spydercos this Christmas.
I said nothing about the manufacturer. I just pointed out the knives good attributes and sent them on their way to be appreciated.

Marvin, I watched "On Golden Pond" last night.
It was a good movie, and Jane REALLY looked good....really good!!!
Maybe my politics can soften after a quarter century has passed.

Rude Water, I'll take you up on that cold one. I'm anxious to meet all of you.
BTW, I quit Budwieser when they contributed heavily to anti-gun legislation. Coors rocks!


Cougar, damn good reply. Maybe you could teach me to be more diplomatic ?
This has been a good thread. I flew off the handle because I supported Spyderco when they were branded "blue collar knives" or "inferior". I thought I would collect them for a long time. I'll keep a few of them because I like them, but likely will purchase no more.

All of us that depend on marketing can either embrace the web or hold it in contempt. No matter what we do, it is destined to become the preferred purchasing and delivery medium of the future.
Later, Bill



[This message has been edited by Bill McWilliams (edited 28 December 1998).]

 

[bruce]

I am always amazed at the audacity of marketing types (we call them marketing pukes in our industry) to use marketing-speak! Michelle, you should know better than to call an ELU an ELU to their face! That's the secret marketing designation for a customer, you know, the one they told you in college never to divulge to the public! I am sure Spyderco could have diffused many of these replies if Michelle had treated us like "customers" instead of ELU's! I find it very interesting that she didn't include an e-mail address to take personal responses! Another barricade of non-contact between the customer and the company. Well, Michelle, you can catagorize me as an S.N.O. from now on--stands for Spyderco Non-Owner! I don't mind being in this classification since I've never found a Spyderco product I couldn't replace with some other company's products. And as long as I have the floor, Michelle, I purchased a large Wegner from a reputable dealer to use for hunting. The picture on all your "point of sale" material showed a severly dropped point, just right for hunting and skinning. The model I received had a point nothing like the advertisements. Way too pointy! In pointing it out to the dealer, they made a statement to the effect that Spyderco was the worst company they represent at actually making models look like their advertising! They took it back.

Signed: A Former ELU (You are only Spyderco's ELU if you choose to be, I don't)

 

[James Mattis]

Somehow, I didn't expect Spyderco's MAAP policy to be a hit with the Internet knife crowd, an independent-minded bunch who like to stretch their discretionary spending budget to include as many good sharp objects as possible.

I can say that I have learned over the past year that dealers who want to be on friendly terms with a number of knife companies do not deep-discount their products. Indeed, most of the knives that are highly praised and coveted in this forum come from outfits that try to discourage deep discounting, some more subtly or sucessfully than others.

So it goes.




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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 

[marco]

just out of curiosity - why can't we get a Chris Reeve Sebenza at an internet discount price? do they use the same tactics that spyderco is trying to use?

marco

 

[Cougar Allen]

"Maybe you could teach me to be more diplomatic?"

Sure -- the secret is to wait before posting. If I had posted immediately it would have been an incoherent rant. I got the habit on usenet of using an offline news reader and reading over everything I'd written before posting. It isn't as convenient to do that on these web forums, but when I see something that really makes me see red I still wait a while before I post a reply.

I'd like to add that boycotting unethical companies is not as difficult or as self-sacrificing as you might think. Even when it's because they're mistreating their employees like IBM or taking political action against the rights of all citizens like Budweiser, a corporation with that kind of values is likely to mistreat their customers, too. And in a case like this, where Spyderco is willing to sacrifice the interests of their customers to please a few price-gouging dealers, and willing to lie to us about it -- is it difficult to predict Spyderco is likely to sacrifice the interests of its customers in other ways, too, and lie to them again? Will you believe any Spyderco advertising after that post above?

The effects of a boycott linger for years even after the original cause has been corrected, and not only because people don't get the word. I expect Spyderco will soon reverse this particular policy when they find out how much business it loses them, but that will only be because they'll decide the pressure from customers and net and catalog dealers is worse than the pressure from those few price-gougers. It won't necessarily reflect an overall change in corporate ethics. Many of us will still be suspicious of Spyderco and it will be a long hard road for them to win back customer confidence.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Dexter Ewing]

To all those wanting to give away your Spydercos in protest to the MAAP - just send them to me for "environmentally safe disposal"

For those who do not know, I have a fondness for C36's...

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Dexter Ewing
Knife Reviews Moderator

"The keystroke is mightier than the sword"

 

[James Mattis]

Price gougers?

Selling pocket knives at MSRP in a store is not price gouging - whether the clerk on duty is a walking encyclopedia on sharp objects and eager to please, or a complete nincompoop. Selling for more than MSRP in a boutique in a resort area? Maybe.

Hiking up the price of bottled water after a big earthquake - that's price gouging.

Not all full-fare storefronts are price gougers, and not all gun show dealers are fly-by-night.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 

[madpoet]

I'm almost ashamed to post this in the light of all the well thought out and reasoned responses here.

My thoughts? This is the type of b.s. that I'll drive a long ways to avoid. Do you know how frustrating it is to the average buyer, let alone someone that knows how to read a wholsaler's pricing book, when all you get out of a catalog is P.O.R. in big black letters, since the manufacturer won't even release suggested retail prices, let alone the dealers cost? Now you're telling some poor schmuck that you cant show them the price, and they'll have to call you to request it?
Its been my experience that such things as price fixing aren't far behind. I do a lot of business with a couple of area sporting goods stores, and one company in particular that 'manages' how their products are sold is Browning firearms. Either you price them at what the factory wants, or find youself paying a higher whosale price than before, or you find shipments delayed or your dealership cut off from them entirely. Not only are the new guns high, but as I found out when I went to buy a steel shot barrel for an old A-5 autoloader of my dad's, they are more expensive than an entire shotgun of another brand!

guess I'm rambling, but I just see things with Spyderco moving in this direction, and don't like it

madpoet

 

[Cougar Allen]

I don't see charging list price for a product as price-gouging, necessarily, even when the same product is easily available for less elsewhere. Surely we all are aware of other factors in choosing a retailer to buy from besides price, aren't we? Customer service, having a storefront with knives in stock to be looked at and fondled -- even having good pictures and detailed and honest descriptions on the net or in a paper catalog is worth a lot more than a simple list of models and prices to many of us, fast service, satisfaction guarantees, various other factors including some intangibles that aren't easy to define....

I certainly don't always choose the dealer with the lowest price.

I have to think, though, any dealer who wants to make it difficult for customers to compare prices must consider himself to be a price-gouger, though, and who am I to say he's wrong in that self-assessment?

I hasten to add that James Mattis of Chai Cutlery is no price-gouger, lest anyone get the wrong impression. He makes no attempt to deceive anyone about how his prices compare with other vendors -- and he doesn't charge list price on Spydercos, either, far from it. I think he's bending over backwards trying to be fair here, and I hope nobody gets the wrong impression from that.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Marion David Poff]

Well,

I am probably going to hurt myself by bringing this up, but, oh well...

Liberty

It seems to me that some want the privelege but not the risks of liberty.

In a free market, there would be no such thing as MAAP, no worrying about whether were cheaper prices to be found or not.

In a free market, the seller and buyer would agree on a price, a value, and as long as the maker got what the maker wanted, no harm, no foul.

Maybe S. is seeing there market share diminishing, and they want to bolster theur numbers through illusion of greater value. Maybe they should be putting their time into education about their product.

Anyway.

BTW, you know how risky it feels to say this??? Here I am having day dreams about working for Spyderco, and I am posting what is probably construed as criticim, right where Sal Glesser can and probably will see it. Oh well, integrity must win out.

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One may want to keep an Eye out for my review of the Bob Kasper designed, Kevin Gentile modified AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.

Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, and Martial Series; Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle; REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu

 

[Mike Turber]

Well Sal has read this and most likely he will post a response as well. We have sent him a password to use. He had the same problem Michelle did.

The internet is a two edged sword. For many, myself included, it seems that when you try to help by answering a question you end up only making a bad situation worse. Part of the problem, that most are having here, is the marketing term "ELU - End Line User". I know it makes it sound like Spyderco has lost touch but this is really a popular term. The only thing is that when talking to people who are not in the marketing loop, so to speak, this term should not be used. I am certain Spyderco was not trying to be condescending in any way.

The other situation is a bit more tricky and I await the response as well. Any type of price manipulation is never well received by ELU's if the overall objective appears to be a higher bottom line price. It also does not help that a dealer may not post prices, but a simple email will rectify that. The problem there is that the simple email is not so simple when your surfing the net.

Net sales are impulse type sales, for the most part, and that is why the net is such a valuable resource. No one wants to wait for an email reply, drive to a store or even make a phone call. They want it RIGHT NOW!

Another problem is that the internet dealer is a horse of a different bread. They react faster to market changes and can create a sale on the fly. This is not so easily done with mail order companies or store front operations. These types of businesses have been the backbone of knife manufacturers sales for many years and their concerns must naturally be addressed by the supplier for the simple fact that they have been around longer and have developed strong relationships. The problem here is that the manufacturer is not really sure of a proper way to handle these situations especially since the internet is such a growing community and you want to make both sides happy. The internet doubles in size every 100 days and I would not want to make internet dealers mad when it appears as their future is much brighter than the stand alone or high overhead of a catalog/mailorder company. The largest of all retail knife companies is now feeling the pinch and their web site is going up as we speak. That is of course SMKW.

Keeping both sides happy is a task in itself and I am facing the same problem myself at WOW. As many of you know I am a manufacturer too and I am trying to overcome these very same problems. My solution is quite simple. Publish suggested retail prices at let the dealers sell at whatever price point they want. I do not want to police my dealers and never will. I will however tell them what the manufacturers policies are but I will not police this, and if a manufacturer tries to cut me off for this reason so be it. Unless a dealer is breaking the law I will not get involved as I feel it is not my place to police it. I have enough stuff to worry about and I do not need some manufacturer calling me telling me that X dealer is selling stuff to cheap. This has happened before with Benchamde and Columbia River. I called the dealers in question and told them what the manufacturer said but it is their decision as to comply or not. If I loose my distributorship over something I do not have direct control over, I feel I do not need to promote that makers product. Simple as that.

I have only stopped selling to one dealer for the simple fact that he was breaking the law. I did this for Benchmade and the dealer is very well known in these circles. I know you will ask who so I will give his initials. JAB.

I wish there was a solution that would work for everyone, but as with many problems there is no perfect solution.

This is a free market society. May the best dealer and maker win.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[bald1]

Madpoet:

I'm quite surprised at your experience with Browning Firearms as their products are routinely discounted in these parts (bought a Boss Euro-Bolt II for my son a while ago). The firearms industry is more affected by minimum order dollars imposed by some manufacturers/distributors to limit dealer access (e.g. HK, etc.).

Mike:

You state: "Net sales are impulse type sales, for the most part, and that is why the net is such a valuable resource. No one wants to wait for an email reply, drive to a store or even make a phone call. They want it RIGHT NOW!"

I must strongly disagree. I think if you opened a new thread (hint) and polled your members here you'd discover that by and large we research what's available or soon to be available before making a committment to buy. The only "impulse" buying I'm aware of is in response to posted specials. In the last year I've bought quite a few production knives and all but one were researched -- meaning I knew what I was getting and how the piece stacked up against competitive models. The one exception is a Martiini Urban Lynx that I ordered after asking James Mattis about a sound inexpensive puuko to buy to see what all the fuss was about. BTW it's as James represented! I also researched custom makers before soliciting them for the Talonite projects I've commissioned.

The Net affords amply opportunity to research abeit no "touchie - feelie" stuff. But as I've previously posted, the vast majority of InterNET dealers offer return rights if one is not pleased. I've yet to have reason to return anything.

My endorsement and positive reviews of the Spydie Moran started with a post to Dexter and gathering info from other owners before I made my purchase. I read the many reviews about the AFCK in M2 before buying one (although I later sold it in deference to the Genesis). Same with the EDI Genesis I, H.I. Ang Khola khuhri, etc. I had info from Allen on the Elishewitz Mission before I jumped on a heavily discounted special. I already had a Buck 110 and 532 so when I found a 110DM I bought it, same for a 532MS. I always wanted a Sebenza so when faced with an inordinate queue for a MadDog Lab Rat I rolled my deposit into a 'Benza purchase. And so it goes....no true impluse buys. I correspondence with others I see a similar pattern.

Now as far as the waiting on e-mail for pricing, I tend to agree here. When racking and stacking it's much simpler if pricing is also readily available.

Mike, no disrespect intended, but you're in the wholesale side now and have long gotten away from the retail storefront. Do a "sanity check" and see if I'm wrong about this "impluse" issue. Frankly I'll be *very* surprised if it turns out I'm wrong and you're right about the nature of Net sales.
It could be fun finding out though

!


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-=[Bob]=-

Bald is beautiful! Rub a dome for luck today!



[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 30 December 1998).]

 

[Bill McWilliams]

Bob is right.
I spend a great deal of time researching before purchasing. There is just so much information out there that is easily accessable. Plus you have free discussion, opinions and suggestions c/o the forums.
I find myself far more educated about the prospective knive's specs. than I would in a person-to-person sale.
The ONLY drawback in web-based sales is that you can't hold it first.
Hi bald1

Bill





[This message has been edited by Bill McWilliams (edited 30 December 1998).]