spyderco sharpmaker .... not impresed help me love this thing

[Robert Ptacel]

My technique with the Sharpmaker is when I get a knife I take it to a coarse hone and grind a relief angle to thin the edge. I know this requires you to freehand unless you use another jig like the Aligner.There seems to be too much trying to work around the problem instead of coming at it straight on.We have to remember that the abrasives of the SM are quite fine and never meant to hog off a lot of steel.If you want to get frustrated with somebody it is the knife companies that put on too obtuse of an edge but they are getting better.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David,

Let me please ask you about what you said above. As to the first statement, are you saying that a very small microbevel will produce a much greater degree of sharpness than, say, a straight 30 degree inclusive edge?

As for always always using light pressure, I understand that as a general proposition with the SM. But, from one of the J. Davis videos, and if my faulty memory serves, I believe you may also have talked about it in another thread, I have found that in one circumstance, a moderate amount of pressure on the SM can be useful. What I'm talking about is an edge that has gotten quite dull, where "regular" SM technique is going to take a long time to bring it back. I've found that the back and forth/up-and-down "rub-a-dub" method on the flats of the brown stones can really speed up the process. Afterwards, it should be followed with the normal (downstroke) SM technique, and light pressure.

I would be interested in your further thoughts on these two points.

(BTW, you were sure right about the Kai/Japan Indian Ford lockbacks. I have mine in my pocket as I type this and have really enjoyed it---really excellent quality for the money.:thumbup

Thanks,

Andrew

The idea of sharpness noticeably increasing with a microbevel (as I view it) has more to do with guaranteeing a crisp apex on the edge, as well as helping to clear away any burrs/wires that might be left. It's more noticeable the finer the primary bevel becomes. For the most part, I've always tried to do without a microbevel, but have noticed how quickly a micro can quickly put some bite back into an edge, when some of the 'teeth' might've otherwise been worn/polished out of it. This assumes that the micro bevel is done with a minimum of strokes, so it also won't be polished too smooth.

Regarding pressure, I've come to the conclusion that if I either feel the need to press a little harder, or do any up/down grinding on the bevels, both of these things are better done on a somewhat coarser hone. Ceramics load up too quickly with extra grinding, and it makes them counter-productive. Ceramic V-crock style sharpeners were among the first I ever used, going back to the early '90s or so, and I've collected at least 6 or eight sets of them over the years. All of them shared this same characteristic, in that the sharpening process tends to degrade if too much heavy grinding is done on them. Swarf loads up the rods, and fatigue setting in over a long session can introduce inconsistency as well. This is why I say that the Sharpmaker is really at it's best, when the existing edge can be noticeably improved or even radically so, within no more than maybe 10 passes at each stage (med, fine and UF if using them). And I've basically sworn off using anything other than light pressure on ceramics, because it's way too easy to roll/chip an edge on them (even on flat hones).


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

How many strokes roughly per side are you putting and what pressure?
So I basically "Want" to lay the edge over on the knife? Again, this is my first go at sharpening and right now, you're my best knowledgeable source, I truly appreciate all your time and guidance.

Don't worry about counting strokes, there are too many variables to rely on that. The existing condition of the edge, the steel, the pressure used, consistency of angle, etc. will radically influence how many strokes might be needed. The best way is to closely examine the edge as you work, maybe every 3-5 strokes or so. You want to be able to see/feel when the burr is beginning to form, as opposed to just expecting it within a certain number of passes on the hone. If seeing/feeling the burr is still troublesome, it also doesn't hurt to do some test-cutting in paper, as you go. Slice slowly, so you can see how specific portions of the edge are performing (cutting cleanly, snagging, slipping, etc.). If you do see the edge snagging on the paper, that's a good sign to check that exact part of the edge for a burr. Feel for it, inspect under magnification, look for tell-tale glints of light reflecting from it. Get acquainted with how it looks and feels (to your fingers), and correlate that to how the edge is cutting (or not). And, if the edge is simply slipping over the paper without cutting or snagging, chances are it's simply not apexed, or the edge has been rounded off (inconsistent angle control).

The burr is essentially the thin, weak steel that will eventually fold over, as sharpening makes it too thin to retain any strength. In that sense, it is sort of 'laying over', as you describe. Usually, it'll happen in small portions of the edge at a time, leaving some little 'tatters' of steel that tend to snag on almost anything they touch. A wet paper towel or other paper tissue will often leave little fibers hanging on the burrs, when lightly wiping the edge of the blade. That's another easy way to look for burrs (use a magnifier).


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

So I took it out again after watching countless youtube videos and spent about an hour watching, taking notes etc.

Well, my 0350 it either touches the very edge of the knife or the shoulder... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I want a nice "Contact patch" don't I???...

Im assuming just about everything I've tried to sharpen is so far off from what this sharpener is made for however..... How in the hell can that be?

Why would it be barely on the tip of the blade at one angle and then the shoulder on the other?


Im so lost.:barf:

It's very common for the edge angle to vary along different portions of the edge. On the ZT-0350 especially, the thick grind of the blade and the recurve will also introduce some more variability. And the tips on most blades will have much more obtuse (wide) edge angles; it's actually pretty rare if they aren't. The heel of the blade will also likely be ground at a wider angle as well, as the thin edge transitions to the ricasso/tang.


David

 

[AFAustin]

David, thanks for your reply and thoughts---very helpful as always.

Andrew

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, thanks for your reply and thoughts---very helpful as always.

Andrew

You're very welcome, Andrew. :thumbup:


David

 

[Reignman]

You sir are a wealth of knowledge. I took her out today and Imaybe I'm relying too much on the DVD and people's counting.

All the blades Ive worked wont cut paper but have zero snags, burrs etc. If I run my fingernail they're all smooth. I have gotten it to the point cutting paper on medium, not well, but it would only to end up becoming dull after the white rod third steps. I'll try slowing down again and seeing what happens. I tried the 20 degree chisel grind on my Emerson and it's again "sharp feeling" but won't dare cut paper.

What should I do when I am on step 2 and it's beginning to cut paper?

Thank you so much David.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

You sir are a wealth of knowledge. I took her out today and I suoposenmaybe I'm relying too much on the DVD and people's counting.

All the baladesnive worked winter cut paper but have zero snags, burrs etc. If I run my fingernail they're all smooth. I have gotten it to the point cutting paper on medium, not well, but it would only to end up becoming dull after the white rod third steps. I'll try slowing down again and seeing what happens. I tried the 20 degree chisel grind on my Emerson and it's again "sharp feeling" but won't dare cut paper.

What should I do when I am on step 2 and it's beginning to cut paper?

Thank you so much David.

When you start cutting paper, that's the time to really slow down and think about why the edge has improved. Also a good time to really lighten up on pressure (even more so), and re-check the edge (by cutting/slicing paper) after every single stroke. This is so you can STOP immediately, if you see the edge performance degrade from one pass to the next, and figure out why it degraded. There's a significant danger in over-polishing the edge in the final stages, especially when still trying to learn the process and the system (I did this for years, before finally figuring it out ).


David

 

[Reignman]

I might be doing that David, everyone mentions stroke count.

Let me ask you as simply as I can.

When do you stop each step or start it?

 

[Twindog]

I might be doing that David, everyone mentions stroke count.

Let me ask you as simply as I can.

When do you stop each step or start it?

If you get a good quality 10X loupe, you'll be able to see where the stone is grinding the edge. As the newly ground area approaches the apex of the edge, you'll know you'll be getting close. You can also use a Sharpie, but you'll still want a loupe.

It's a critical skill to be able to feel the burr as soon as it forms. The burr forms when the stone reaches the apex of the edge and begins to smear metal to the opposite side of the edge. This is the point where you stop removing metal and start refining the edge.

There is no correct predetermined number of strokes, which David already said.

Once you raise the burr the full length on both sides of the edge, you have only to remove the burr property, by using progressively lighter strokes and ever finer grit stone.

The Sharpmaker is not as precise as people think. If you cannot hold the blade perfectly vertical, you'll not get a good edge -- on one stroke you can be sharpening and the next dulling the edge. In that case, you might try a different guided system where the angle is easier to hold.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I might be doing that David, everyone mentions stroke count.

Let me ask you as simply as I can.

When do you stop each step or start it?

If you get a good quality 10X loupe, you'll be able to see where the stone is grinding the edge. As the newly ground area approaches the apex of the edge, you'll know you'll be getting close. You can also use a Sharpie, but you'll still want a loupe.

It's a critical skill to be able to feel the burr as soon as it forms. The burr forms when the stone reaches the apex of the edge and begins to smear metal to the opposite side of the edge. This is the point where you stop removing metal and start refining the edge.

There is no correct predetermined number of strokes, which David already said.

Once you raise the burr the full length on both sides of the edge, you have only to remove the burr property, by using progressively lighter strokes and ever finer grit stone.

The Sharpmaker is not as precise as people think. If you cannot hold the blade perfectly vertical, you'll not get a good edge -- on one stroke you can be sharpening and the next dulling the edge. In that case, you might try a different guided system where the angle is easier to hold.

The above is good advice. As for when to stop one step, and begin another, most all of that hinges on the burr. That should be formed at the first stage. After that's established, a few extremely light strokes on the same hone can begin to clean up the burr, and most of the rest should be done using the finer hones in sequence. The emphasis on using lighter strokes, after the burr is formed, is all-important; the goal is to gently abrade the burr away, without otherwise over-sharpening or over-polishing the good steel behind the burr.

The comment from Twindog about the imprecise nature of the Sharpmaker is pertinent, and it's why I think it's important to minimize the amount of 'grinding' done on the Sharpmaker's rods, and therefore why establishing a good bevel by more appropriate means (like a guided system) is important. The longer one has to go, in attempting to roughly shape the edge on the relatively fine ceramics (as opposed to refining it, which is really what this system was made for), the more inconsistency will creep in, and degrade the results.


David

 

[Reignman]

What do you mean burr on both sides? That confused me.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

What do you mean burr on both sides? That confused me.

When the burr forms, it'll fold away from the side being sharpened. Abrading on the other side, to which it's folded, will (usually) fold it in the other direction. Seeing the burr fold to both sides is a good way to ensure both bevels meet in straight lines, at a clean apex.


David

 

[Reignman]

When the burr forms, it'll fold away from the side being sharpened. Abrading on the other side, to which it's folded, will (usually) fold it in the other direction. Seeing the burr fold to both sides is a good way to ensure both bevels meet in straight lines, at a clean apex.


David

Got it! What do you use to index everything to the sm?

 

[Twindog]

What do you mean burr on both sides? That confused me.

This chart shows a 40-degree (inclusive – 20 degree on each side) knife edge as the lines in ink. The goal is to reprofile it to a 30-degree edge, which is shown as the green line[edit: the green doesn't show well, but it's the inside angle]. The yellow represents the metal you have to remove to go from an 40-degree edge to a 30 degree edge.

The pencil lines numbered 1 through 4 represent the position of the sharpening stones as they grind away the metal. On the left, line No. 1 represents the first pass. You’ll see it just barely scrapes the shoulder. If you had painted the edge with a Sharpie, you’d see only this little bit of Sharpie ink scraped away. Lines 2 and 3 represent progress as you grind down the shoulder. If you looked at the edge with a good loupe, you’d see the grindings marks progress up the edge, getting ever closer to the apex.

Line Number 4 is the green line. This is when you stop removing a lot of metal. You’ll see that when the stone reaches the apex, it starts to smear metal to the other side, which is shown by the little green line at the apex. This is the burr.

The finger shows how you can feel that burr.

Now look at the No. 1 line on the right side. This line represents the stone as you just start to sharpen the other side. Notice that it won’t touch the burr. You have to keep progressing on the right side just like you did on the left in order to get the stone to grind up to the apex, at which point it will push the burr to the other side.

In reality, it’s best to grind both sides as evenly as you can to keep the edge centered. If it gets off center, just grind more on the side that will even the bevel out.

Unless you create a burr on both sides, the edge won’t be sharp – or it will have just a wire edge (the burr) from one side that will quickly break off and leave a poor edge behind.

 

[Reignman]

This chart shows a 40-degree (inclusive – 20 degree on each side) knife edge as the lines in ink. The goal is to reprofile it to a 30-degree edge, which is shown as the green line. The yellow represents the metal you have to remove to go from an 40-degree edge to a 30 degree edge.
The pencil lines numbered 1 through 4 represent the position of the sharpening stones as they grind away the metal. On the left, line No. 1 represents the first pass. You’ll see it just barely scrapes the shoulder. If you had painted the edge with a Sharpie, you’d see only this little bit of Sharpie ink scraped away. Lines 2 and 3 represent progress as you grind down the shoulder. If you looked at the edge with a good loupe, you’d see the grindings marks progress up the edge, getting ever closer to the apex.

Line Number 4 is the green line. This is when you stop removing a lot of metal. You’ll see that when the stone reaches the apex, it starts to smear metal to the other side, which is shown by the little green line at the apex. This is the burr.

The finger shows how you can feel that burr.

Now look at the No. 1 line on the right side. This line represents the stone as you just start to sharpen the other side. Notice that it won’t touch the burr. You have to keep progressing on the right side just like you did on the left in order to get the stone to grind up to the apex, at which point it will push the burr to the other side.

In reality, it’s best to grind both sides as evenly as you can to keep the edge centered. If it gets off center, just grind more on the side that will even the bevel out.

Unless you create a burr on both sides, the edge won’t be sharp – or it will have just a wire edge (the burr) from one side that will quickly break off and leave a poor edge behind.

thanks so much twin!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Got it! What do you use to index everything to the sm?

Any of the guided systems can do it. I've used the Lansky, Gatco and DMT Aligner sets. Doesn't have to be exactly indexed to the SM (at only 30° or 40°). Anything that puts a clean, symmetrical edge of 30° or less (inclusive angle) is ideal, in making maintenance a LOT easier on the SM. You can do it at something in between 30° - 40°, but that'll limit your touch-ups to the 40° setting.


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Excellent post & illustration, Twindog. :thumbup:


David

 

[galactorrhea]

I (and many others) found for bringing forth edges from truly dull knives, it helps to cut out and "sheath" a stone with sandpaper, as the coarse stones do not take off much metal for reprofiling and restoration.

 

[Reignman]

I (and many others) found for bringing forth edges from truly dull knives, it helps to cut out and "sheath" a stone with sandpaper, as the coarse stones do not take off much metal for reprofiling and restoration.

Cover the sharpmaker rods with sandpaper? What grit/type?