Spyderco Siren Lock Issue

Sal Glesser said:
I said I will look into it. We have no way of knowing who may or may not have inventory. That's why I said I would look into into it. You are implying that we are intentionally at fault for something? I am saying I don't know and will look into it. I don't know what you expect?
Click to expand...
It seems like a blanket email to all authorized dealers to stop selling the Siren, as soon as it was decided this was a problem and to redesign the lock, would have been prudent. As it is, months and months have gone by with dealers selling old stock of a knife that Spyderco recognize as defective (defective enough for a redesign of the lock and replacement for all who want, anyway).

I think this is the frustration jux t jux t , as well as many others are feeling about this situation. No doubt it is frustrating for you, Lance, and Spyderco as well.
 
jux t said:
You'll look into it? You basically called me a liar earlier and told me to think more and post less. I have shown how my statements that you took fault in were true. I like the knives your company makes and you usually seem to be a stand up guy, but why talk down to me when I'm stating facts and asking you why they have continued to sell despite being defective and potentially hazardous.

I haven't seen a recall yet, and all the people who bought one thus far paid handsomely for a defective knife.
Click to expand...
It is inherently implied with any folding knife that the lock is there as an added safety measure, not a guarantee the lock won't fail. Locks can and do fail, and to use a folding knife as though it couldn't is unwise. I suspect this issue will be remedied in time, but in the meantime, I don't think the situation is analogous to a recall for, say, an automobile.
 
jstn said:
It is inherently implied with any folding knife that the lock is there as an added safety measure, not a guarantee the lock won't fail. Locks can and do fail, and to use a folding knife as though it couldn't is unwise. I suspect this issue will be remedied in time, but in the meantime, I don't think the situation is analogous to a recall for, say, an automobile.
Click to expand...
Right, I would say that at the authorized dealer level, remaining stock should not be sold but rather sent back to spyderco.

Sal said they do not deem it a safety issue. A guy over on the spyderco forum has a long post about why. So putting aside the safety issue aspect of this, we can all agree that the knife is not operating as intended and is a significant issue. I can see why no "recall", or whatever that would look like. But not selling anymore at the dealer level seems reasonable to do for the customers.
 
Hi Jux t,

I understand your frustration, and I assure you it is also frustrating for us and certainly for Lance. I will try to provide you with more information that may help your understanding.

First of all, there is no safety issue. The knife is a mid lock-back and it has what is known as "pop up". This is an issue that many mid lock-backs have. Most of our lock-backs, for the first 15 years we made lock-backs in Seki had some degree of "pop-up". It is a common issue with mid lock-backs. No one has said that their lock has disengaged and no one has been hurt. We have in Golden figured out how to generally avoid the problem as has our Seki makers. It is irritating if it occurs, but it only can occur when the tip of the knife is under enough pressure to slide the lock bar up at the front of the interface. When the pressure is released, the lock resumes its original position. It is the "hook" on the lock bar that keeps the lock from defeating and the "hook" is not affected by the "pop-up" which occurs at the front o the lock bar. I hope that you can understand this principal?

For some reason, this particular design has its engineering challengers balancing the blade lock cut out, the shape of the lock bar "hammer", the pivot location, and spring tension. Our engineers have been working on it steady since the issue was discovered, on some of the pieces. Not all of the pieces have this issue. Testing a fix is not like cooking a hamburger. There are many steps in development; cutting, surface grinding, heat treat, milling, wire EDM, test fixtures, etc. These take time and our factory is quite busy on top of this issue. Running a manufacturing plant has many issues going on all of the time.

We sell to dealers and distributors, and end line users. Our distributors sell to many dealers that we do not know. Literally thousands all over the world. there is no way, nor is there any reason to do, as you say, a recall.

The factory manager that authorized the engineering, and cut many thousands of more blades and lock bars (that didn't work) has been discharged and Eric has taken over the position as factory manager, in addition to his normal General Manager position.

We stopped selling the knife, but there are many that have and are using the knife with no problems. Some have the "pop-up" issue, which is irritating when it occurs, but does not affect the function of the "hook" on the knife.

I really feel bad for Lance that it had to happen to his design, but we will get on top of it and we will replace the knife for anyone that wants their knife replaced. There are many that have been using their knives with no issues. We have been honest and transparent about the issue since the thread began.

I hope that helps you understand the issue with the model?

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Jux t,

I understand your frustration, and I assure you it is also frustrating for us and certainly for Lance. I will try to provide you with more information that may help your understanding.

First of all, there is no safety issue. The knife is a mid lock-back and it has what is known as "pop up". This is an issue that many mid lock-backs have. Most of our lock-backs, for the first 15 years we made lock-backs in Seki had some degree of "pop-up". It is a common issue with mid lock-backs. No one has said that their lock has disengaged and no one has been hurt. We have in Golden figured out how to generally avoid the problem as has our Seki makers. It is irritating if it occurs, but it only can occur when the tip of the knife is under enough pressure to slide the lock bar up at the front of the interface. When the pressure is released, the lock resumes its original position. It is the "hook" on the lock bar that keeps the lock from defeating and the "hook" is not affected by the "pop-up" which occurs at the front o the lock bar. I hope that you can understand this principal?

For some reason, this particular design has its engineering challengers balancing the blade lock cut out, the shape of the lock bar "hammer", the pivot location, and spring tension. Our engineers have been working on it steady since the issue was discovered, on some of the pieces. Not all of the pieces have this issue. Testing a fix is not like cooking a hamburger. There are many steps in development; cutting, surface grinding, heat treat, milling, wire EDM, test fixtures, etc. These take time and our factory is quite busy on top of this issue. Running a manufacturing plant has many issues going on all of the time.

We sell to dealers and distributors, and end line users. Our distributors sell to many dealers that we do not know. Literally thousands all over the world. there is no way, nor is there any reason to do, as you say, a recall.

The factory manager that authorized the engineering, and cut many thousands of more blades and lock bars (that didn't work) has been discharged and Eric has taken over the position as factory manager, in addition to his normal General Manager position.

We stopped selling the knife, but there are many that have and are using the knife with no problems. Some have the "pop-up" issue, which is irritating when it occurs, but does not affect the function of the "hook" on the knife.

I really feel bad for Lance that it had to happen to his design, but we will get on top of it and we will replace the knife for anyone that wants their knife replaced. There are many that have been using their knives with no issues. We have been honest and transparent about the issue since the thread began.

I hope that helps you understand the issue with the model?

sal
Click to expand...

Thank you Sal, its not always easy for the end user to comprehend how this all comes togheter.
 
Hi 353,

One of the things that makes our company a little different, in our core values, is that we work for the End Line User (ELU). We service dealers and distributors so we can get the product to you. Since we work for you and your help us do that work, we can be be transparent with our partners, you. The more educated you are, the better for all of us.

There are a few companies around that make very high quality product of one kind or another. I think it's important to appreciate the effort that it takes bring such a product to us, and the passion required.

sal

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................

As I've said before, "Passion is the spice in the spirit that makes excellence possible".
 
That’s on the dealer. Sal can’t make them not sell them. He would have no idea who still has stock and is still saying they are still selling. Call out the dealers in question and give him a list if you’re so concerned and holy.
 
If you say Sal is a stand up guy, and for many many years, maybe give him the benefit of the doubt and realize how hard it’s be to resolve the issue with every dealer (especially if he didn’t know more are still for sale) and relax.
 
I think this is a significant safety issue, and to suggest it is not is pretty surprising. No one would have purchased this knife if they knew that 39% or whatever the number is, do not stay locked and fixed when downward pressure is applied to the cutting edge. The idea that this is expected or normal function is absurd.

I am very disappointed in my experience, and with how this has been handled. All dealers should have been notified and asked to return them for replacement or repair. Consumers should be able to obtain a refund or replacement.
 
Elgatodeacero said:
I think this is a significant safety issue, and to suggest it is not is pretty surprising. No one would have purchased this knife if they knew that 39% or whatever the number is, do not stay locked and fixed when downward pressure is applied to the cutting edge. The idea that this is expected or normal function is absurd.

I am very disappointed in my experience, and with how this has been handled. All dealers should have been notified and asked to return them for replacement or repair. Consumers should be able to obtain a refund or replacement.
Click to expand...
Your opinion is valid, but so is mine and I fall into the camp that it is not a significant safety issue. I do not believe that there is any evidence that anyone has been hurt by the failure of the lock to hold the blade in place. Please point me in the right direction if that is not true. The blade edge and spine move upward with this issue. Even if there was a complete failure of the locking mechanism such that it could not hold the blade, the spine of the knife might rotate up and over to make contact with the user's hand. How would the edge make contact? Contrast that with the myriad of spine whack enthusiasts who are all too proud about getting a liner lock to disengage, yet nobody seems to be asking for those knives to be recalled, at least not that I have seen.

I have no doubt that had this issue been discovered prior to the Siren's release, Spyderco would have in fact not released the knife. Of course that is just conjecture on my part and perhaps I'm not correct, but I think that Spyderco's history suggests that they would not release the knife. I know you read the thread and Sal's post (151) that everyone with a Siren will get their knife replaced, so I guess I don't understand your last statement and why you think otherwise.

Perfection in life does not exist in anything and the expectation of perfection is foolish. Nobody however expected the knife to have this issue, but now that it is known, I think Sal and company are doing their very best to address it. Maybe they could release an apparent fix more quickly, but I don't think anybody wants this to be an issue with the replacement Sirens and that takes time. It is what it is.
 
Purchasers have been waiting for about a year for a replacement, fix, or refund. At some point it is reasonable to ask how long we will have to wait. Refunds could be offered immediately, credit for another Spyderco product could be offered immediately, and a repair or upgraded knife may someday come but there is no way to know when.

Many people use Spyderco knives in serious situations, so imagine a commercial fisherman that is unable to cut himself free of a hazard on deck because the lock fails - maybe he doesn’t slice himself, but he might drown in a tangled rope or net. Or a sea kayaker that uses his knife to cut free from a capsized boat? Or a scuba diver? The lock needs to function properly, without possibility of failure. This is a knife made from special steel for dangerous marine environments.

I don’t have all the info on failure rates, or knowledge of the physics of exactly how this knife locks, so I cannot assess risk very well - I just know I cannot use this knife because my copy has a problem with the lock.

I am not saying Mr. Glesser is a bad person or Spyderco is an evil company. They have an great reputation for customer service and standing behind their products, and that is one reason I own quite a few Spyderco knives (starting from way back in the VG10 days), but at some point we need resolution and I believe it is unreasonable to make us continue to wait. Spyderco’s response to customers on this product is very out of character.
 
on_the_edge said:
Your opinion is valid, but so is mine and I fall into the camp that it is not a significant safety issue. I do not believe that there is any evidence that anyone has been hurt by the failure of the lock to hold the blade in place. Please point me in the right direction if that is not true. The blade edge and spine move upward with this issue. Even if there was a complete failure of the locking mechanism such that it could not hold the blade, the spine of the knife might rotate up and over to make contact with the user's hand. How would the edge make contact? Contrast that with the myriad of spine whack enthusiasts who are all too proud about getting a liner lock to disengage, yet nobody seems to be asking for those knives to be recalled, at least not that I have seen.

I have no doubt that had this issue been discovered prior to the Siren's release, Spyderco would have in fact not released the knife. Of course that is just conjecture on my part and perhaps I'm not correct, but I think that Spyderco's history suggests that they would not release the knife. I know you read the thread and Sal's post (151) that everyone with a Siren will get their knife replaced, so I guess I don't understand your last statement and why you think otherwise.

Perfection in life does not exist in anything and the expectation of perfection is foolish. Nobody however expected the knife to have this issue, but now that it is known, I think Sal and company are doing their very best to address it. Maybe they could release an apparent fix more quickly, but I don't think anybody wants this to be an issue with the replacement Sirens and that takes time. It is what it is.
Click to expand...
Imagine this scenario: you're using the Siren to cut something thick, say a rubber mat. You grip the knife hard because it's necessary to make the cut. The blade and lock pop up during the cut, and you continue to grip the knife, keeping the lockbar depressed. Now, if you wiggle the knife free from the material, it can come unlocked because the cutting pressure unlocked the knife, and pressure from your grip kept it unlocked. Seems like a safety issue that would not have been present had the lock been working correctly.
 
IDK. It seems we all could imagine some scenario, however common or rare in reality, that would be supportive of our beliefs. IMHO, some scenarios are pure fantasy in that they simply do not occur. Still, if my life truly might rely on the proper functioning of a locking mechanism, I am going to utilize common sense and remove the possibility of failure by using a fixed blade rather than a folder. It's the same reason folks sometimes prefer a revolver to a pistol--fewer things to go wrong.
 
on_the_edge said:
IDK. It seems we all could imagine some scenario, however common or rare in reality, that would be supportive of our beliefs. IMHO, some scenarios are pure fantasy in that they simply do not occur. Still, if my life truly might rely on the proper functioning of a locking mechanism, I am going to utilize common sense and remove the possibility of failure by using a fixed blade rather than a folder. It's the same reason folks sometimes prefer a revolver to a pistol--fewer things to go wrong.
Click to expand...
But but but.. my fixed blade doesn't fold and while I'm drowning because my boat capsized, I got stuck in the net. I could stab myself trying to put it back in the sheath! Oh, wait.. I'm drowning, it's not going to go back I'm the sheath. It's going to the bottom of the ocean, while I swim to the top!

Or or or.. my lc200n UKPK doesn't have ANY lock to keep it from folding up, on my hand, while I'm using the cutting edge! Oh, Wait... The blade can't fold on my hand, because I'm using the Cutting edge, Not the spine!

It's a Knife, it's Sharp and pointy.. We All cut ourselves in MANY situations, of which most have Zero to do with the lock, no lock, fixed, folding, functioning, or non functioning..

Spyderco does more for most of us, than any other company.

For whom it may apply..

Grow up!
CALL THEM DIRECT AND SEND IT BACK, INSTEAD OF CRYING..
 
We just built up the last fix and it passed all tests. we'll begin building them now. Best way to replace the knives for our customers that want a replacement (not all pieces "pop up") directly than to try to go through many dealers that we don't know.

Sorry for your disappointment.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
We just built up the last fix and it passed all tests. we'll begin building them now. Best way to replace the knives for our customers that want a replacement (not all pieces "pop up") directly than to try to go through many dealers that we don't know.

Sorry for your disappointment.

sal
Click to expand...

So simply speaking, they can send in the old one and get a replacment? Or how is the original purchase verified?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top