The Spyderco urban,for those who might not know,is a plain edged,2.5 inch non-locking blade,with G10 scales. There are a few variations as to color and blade style. A friend is offering one for trade. I no longer keep or carry any locking blade knives in NYC due to the NYPD's interpretation of Gravity knives to include virtually ALL lock-blade knives. I'd like some opinions as to the carrying of the Spyderco urban in NYC. In my opinion,even though it doesnt lock,it appears "tactical". Therefore,I foresee trouble up to it being considered a dangerous instrument under the law. Mind you, I limit the circumstances when I carry a knife in NYC to that when I am very sure I will need to use one. And then I usually carry a Victorinox or Wenger Swiss army knife. Simple,non tactical looking,and has never raised any eyebrows. So Im leaning toward not trading for the Spyderco,just to keep my life simple. What would you do? Oh and my friend is interested in a Surefire flashlight I got a while back but I never use it.
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Spyderco Urban Carry in New York City
- Thread starter MH13750
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If that is the same as the previous slipjoint DK and UK Penknives, I wouldn't worry about it being construed as a gravity knife and the penal law. The slipjoint mechanism wasn't functionally any different than any other slipjoint that I have ever used. IN fact, the backspring was actually weaker than I expected. That said, on a practical level, getting used to a tactical format slipjoint is a bit awkward (I handled a passaround DKPK). Remember that concealment is mandatory- meaning that you effectively can't make use of the pocket-clip (under most circumstances)- which is one of the biggest ebenfits to the Spyderco over a more traditional slippie.
A few years back I wouldnt have given it a second thought,I'd grab the new knife. But I've grown used to carrying SAKs that I've collected over the years. I find them very useful to have at hand. But I'm intrigued by the slippie Spydercos. I will be happy when I no longer need to go to NYC for business. Then I won't need to concern myself with what I decide to carry as a cutting implement.
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I wouldn't think an Urban or Bob Terzuola could be opened by inertia. Mine won't.
Mine are rather stiff to open (mp510 may have had a weak strung one or his slippies have stronger springs than mine).
Mine are rather stiff to open (mp510 may have had a weak strung one or his slippies have stronger springs than mine).
The Urban and the Bob T slippies do not lock,therefore there is no way they can be deemed "gravity knives" according to the law. However,the gray-area interpretation of "dangerous knife or instrument" is my biggest concern. If said knives could be "flicked open" they might be called dangerous by any given law enforcement officer. I feel so much safer knowing that law-abiding citizens are completely dis-armed.
I am not too familar with the blade design of those two knives. Tanto, bayonet, kriss, spear and a few other designs have been deemed "dangerous knives" due to their primary design as a weapon. Remember alot has to do with how your knife is discovered, and your presentation during your interaction with the officer. The most dangerous thing in NYC is that most officers have gone through a zero tolerance school system that feels any knife is a weapon, and then they are made to issue a certain amount of summons and make a number of arrest, and then in NYC there are about 35,000 non ranking officers that have to make those numbers.....you can guess your odds for yourself. There were over 500,000 New Yorkers stopped and frisked by the NYPD last year that were found NOT to have a weapon, therefore a 250 form was filled out.
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What's a 250 form?
A 250 is a from used to document the stop and frisking of a person who is not charged with any crime as a result of the stop. This is done in the event the person complains that he was stopped, and to show the NYPD is being proactive in stopping possible suspects. The officer must be able to state why he made the stop on the form. Not very Fourth Amendment friendly. These are used to create a data base for persons who where not charged, and this is done for liabilty reasons, officer work productivity monitoring, and investigative data collection. The city has been sued several times, but Mayor Mike loves it!
This has always worried/intrigued me. Living on Long Island, I EDC a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II CB but I'm always worried about carrying it in NYC whenever I go. I've never ONCE been searched by a LEO anywhere but I think that the JYD would give me some trouble.
If I was "caught" with this "dangerous gravity knife", what would happen? Fine? Arrest? Night in jail? I've never gotten into ANY trouble with the law, so I wouldn't know how any of it works.
If I was "caught" with this "dangerous gravity knife", what would happen? Fine? Arrest? Night in jail? I've never gotten into ANY trouble with the law, so I wouldn't know how any of it works.
I wouldn't carry such a knife,especially in NYC. But I think you SHOULD be allowed to. I grew up around knives;my Dad,Uncles,their friends all carried them. Mostly slip-joints and SAK-type knives. These men,working men,war veterans,didn't seem to think it was odd or unusual to keep a knife in their pocket. One of my uncles,retired from NYPD long ago,and the co-workers of his I met as a kid were the same way. Guess World War 2 and Korean War,then Vietnam War some years later had people that didn't pee their pants whenever someone pulled a knife to cut something with. And all this took place in NYC where I grew up. Some aspects of progress aren't good. As soon as I'm retired,NYC will NEVER see another penny of revenue from my wallet.
"If I was "caught" with this "dangerous gravity knife", what would happen? Fine? Arrest? Night in jail? I've never gotten into ANY trouble with the law, so I wouldn't know how any of it works. "
The answer to the above question is if the most serious charge of the gravity knife was leveled and you have NO prior criminal record, then it would be a class A misd. You would spend one to two nights in jail, be put infront of a judge for arrainment, and most likely be released on bail. Three or four court dates to go after that.
If the Admin Code of an exposed knife was the charge then either an arrest or (most likely) a Criminal Court summons requireing you to go to court in about 45 days.
I am 50, I carried a gravity knife everyday as a teen not knowing it was illegal. I had a switchblade I never carried. Back then any officer bring in someone for just a knife possession case would be the laughing stock of the station house. Not anymore....
The answer to the above question is if the most serious charge of the gravity knife was leveled and you have NO prior criminal record, then it would be a class A misd. You would spend one to two nights in jail, be put infront of a judge for arrainment, and most likely be released on bail. Three or four court dates to go after that.
If the Admin Code of an exposed knife was the charge then either an arrest or (most likely) a Criminal Court summons requireing you to go to court in about 45 days.
I am 50, I carried a gravity knife everyday as a teen not knowing it was illegal. I had a switchblade I never carried. Back then any officer bring in someone for just a knife possession case would be the laughing stock of the station house. Not anymore....
I may not have been clear in the way I articulated my post. Let me make myself more clear.
1. The Sypderco DKPK that I examined could not be opened by a flick of the rist.
2. Even if it could, that would be irrelevant--it is not a locking knife. Even if it could, labeling a slippie that could be flipped open a dangerous knife is a stretch--anything that loose would be impractical as a weapon. Generally a dangerous knife either one that the posessor claims that they will use as a weapon OR is one that is only (primarily) intendd to be used as a weapon.
3. The backspring on the DKPK that I used was on par with my Buck and Case slipjoints. Not as strong as a Canal Street or something, but solid enough. (Just a qualitative statement about the knife
)4. I expected the backspring on the DKPK to be stiffer based on what I read.
5. For those unaware, I take an ultra conservative interpretation of NY's CPW law--folks who are familiar with my posts know that. I wouldn't fear arrest for CPW if I carried one (peacably) in either NYS or C.
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Do they also need "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" for these stops and frisks? That is pretty scary just hearing this small, one side of the story.
Although, just watching the show COPS for 15 minutes, you'll see people who have no understanding of their civil rights constantly incriminating themselves. Kids simply standing outside of a 7-11 GIVE CONSENT for a cop to search them, and then the cop finds narcotics on them....
So, in NYC are these cases of people who have committed no crime, and could have simply said "I do not give consent for you to search my person, under the 4th amendment." and the cop would have let them go. Or is it to the point where the cops can essentially break the laws they are sworn to uphold?
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Do they also need "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" for these stops and frisks? That is pretty scary just hearing this small, one side of the story.
Although, just watching the show COPS for 15 minutes, you'll see people who have no understanding of their civil rights constantly incriminating themselves. Kids simply standing outside of a 7-11 GIVE CONSENT for a cop to search them, and then the cop finds narcotics on them....
So, in NYC are these cases of people who have committed no crime, and could have simply said "I do not give consent for you to search my person, under the 4th amendment." and the cop would have let them go. Or is it to the point where the cops can essentially break the laws they are sworn to uphold?
well if the cop asks to frisk them and they say no the cop has probable cause. kind of a catch 22 in the cops favor.
tyr_shadowblade
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In many places in NY, especially in NYC, police can do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want with minimal fear of any consequences . . . and unless you are wealthy or well-connected there is nothing you can do about it.
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good thing i dont live there. but CA isn't that much better
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No offense, but people say that kind of stuff about Cali all the time too, and it simply isn't true. The people who actually experience it, and calmly state that they give no consent for a search. And at most you are stopped for another 10-15 minutes while the cop calls his boss and asks how he might be able to find something to get you with. (obviously, there are the rare cases where the cop just does as he pleases, but they can get strung up pretty fast in Cali for that, once again depending on the knowledge of the citizen in the circumstance)
Edit: i mean it's not true in cali, not saying it's not true in NYC. Just saying that much of the same rhetoric is spewed based on no facts about cali. Not sure if it's the case with NYC.
That's pretty much as I expect. I was just wondering more what the LAW says. IE: do they "technically" need PC or Reasonable Suspicion for these stops, how much leeway does the written law give them, etc....
I expect it's become much worse after 9/11, with everyone seeing these cops as heroes(which I actually agree with, doesn't mean you give them more power than the law says, though) and people generally already used to having no rights.
Cali and NYC seem to both be very liberal, but at different ends of the liberal spectrum in some cases. Berkeley folks will cause an uproar if a cop sneezes in the wrong direction, kinda keeps them in line for the most part. Now we just need to get our legislators in line, so that these cops don't have ridiculous laws to uphold...
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I'm not an expert on the subject and everything that follows is subject to being corrected by those more knowledgeable.
It's called a 'Terry Stop' If a cop has reason to believe a person is armed then the cop may pat down (firsk) the person looking for a weapon. The officer can not remove anything else from the person's body or pockets that does not have the feel of a weapon. You've seen the cop shows where the cop frisks someone and asks 'what's this?' and the guy says it drugs or whatever. Had the person kept his mouth shut there is little the officer could have done. But after the free admission the officer can then remove the item and arrest the person.
Technically the police can't just stop and frisk anyone. The officer must have some reason to believe the person is armed. As a practical matter I suppose an experienced police officer could easily justify his suspicion in most situations if required.
I've probably gotten at least some of the above wrong and if so I welcome correction.
It's called a 'Terry Stop' If a cop has reason to believe a person is armed then the cop may pat down (firsk) the person looking for a weapon. The officer can not remove anything else from the person's body or pockets that does not have the feel of a weapon. You've seen the cop shows where the cop frisks someone and asks 'what's this?' and the guy says it drugs or whatever. Had the person kept his mouth shut there is little the officer could have done. But after the free admission the officer can then remove the item and arrest the person.
Technically the police can't just stop and frisk anyone. The officer must have some reason to believe the person is armed. As a practical matter I suppose an experienced police officer could easily justify his suspicion in most situations if required.
I've probably gotten at least some of the above wrong and if so I welcome correction.