Spyderco Urban Carry in New York City

[cgmblade]

well if the cop asks to frisk them and they say no the cop has probable cause. kind of a catch 22 in the cops favor.

Legally, the police can not use a person's assertion of his rights as grounds for reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

Reasonable suspicion is required for a officer to briefly detain someone to investigate a matter further to determine if there is probable cause for an arrest. In general I believe the courts have ruled that about 15 minutes is the limit, at least in traffic stops. After that time an officer must let the person go or make an arrest. Unless the person is willing to remain voluntarily. There is no limit on how long a officer may have a voluntary conversation with a person, and of course the officer can arrest the person at any time during that conversation if he develops probable cause.

Probable Cause is required to arrest a person. It differs from reasonable suspicion in that there is specific evidence that a particular person has committed a crime. For instance, an officer responding to a break-in of a business at 3 am sees a person walking down the street near the business. The officer may have reasonable suspicion to stop and question the person regarding the break-in, but walking down the street by itself, even at 3am, isn't grounds for an arrest. If after stopping and talking to the person the officer observes that the person is carrying items reported stolen from the business then the officer has probable cause to arrest him.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or affiliated with law enforcement in any way, and all of the above is just my best understanding of these matters based upon reading and such.

 

[tom19176]

What started the debate about the stop and frisk I assume was my post. In NYC if an officer can state that he believes a person committed a crime, or is some how acting in a possible criminal way, he has the right to stop the person for questioning. I have rarely heard the term "Terry stop" used in NY, but I know of the case and decision. The officer can perform a frisk for weapons only. This is a knife forum, so that is where my statements here were headed. This forum is concerned about a possible weapons charge due to wheter or not a knife is legal, and how it was discovered in the first place. It would be hard to concieve an officer not being able to state why he stopped someone as their is a long list of good reasons that the courts have upheld as valid. The check for weapons and charges brought due to their discovery holds up far more often then any other item discovered during a stop. Drugs, stolen goods, stolen credit cards, etc, are often thrown out in court due to a bad search, however, a weapons charge stands in most parts of NYC. NYC is liberal in many ways, but liberals hate weapons, and seem to allow people's rights to be set aside in this area. In Brooklyn, the courts tend to throw out weapons arrests, but in Queens, Manhattan, tbe Bronx, you will have the deck stacked against you. In Staten Island it can go either way. That all explained, the drop in murders has declined greatly since this "stop and frisk" format and the creation of the 250 form started.

I ,of course, believe like most of us here, that we should be able to carry a legal knife, so long as we act in a legal manner with it. My statements are only intended to tell you the way the courts and law enforcement acts in this part of the country, so that you can follow the law. I am a fomer NYC LEO, but not a lawyer either. Hope that clears up some of the questions. Hey I am waiting to see if New Hampsire passes the no knife is illegal to carry law, as their guns laws are great now! I think I will retire there !

 

[MH13750]

I have a close friend who is an NYPD Sargeant. He has been on the job for 20 years,12 as a patrol officer and 8 years as a patrol supervisor. He always tells me be careful about carrying knives in NYC and tells me my choices are usually pretty safe. I put some of our discussion to him and he shared his views. They are very similar to what tom19176 said previously. I used the example of some kids,I assumed teenagers, just "hanging out" outside the local convenience store. He said, if I had no complaints about any trouble at that location and the kids were otherwise behaving lawfully,I would need a reason to,at the very least,stop and frisk them. He went on to say that a marked patrol car causes people to react sometimes in a way that gives me reason to search them. He said observing body language is key. Many times people that are armed pat where they are carrying the weapon without realizing they are doing so. That would make him take notice and escalate the encounter to a stop and frisk scenario. Same goes for someone using and carrying narcotics. Guess it really doesn't take much to legally justify doing a stop and frisk from the cop's viewpoint. By the way,about my original question about the spyderco urban,he said stick with the SAK. He said you'd be rolling the dice insofar as a possible "dangerous knife" charge. He went on to say the fact that it doesn't lock does NOT mean it can't be considered dangerous. He said its design is to prevent the blade from closing on the users fingers which might be construed that its purpose is as a stabbing implement.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

One thing that is superscrewy and that I am highly opposed to seems to happen almost exclusively in NYC -- and that is the use of UC officers, dressed like dirtbags, approaching citizens in an aggressive and confrontational manner, seemingly hoping to provoke people into threatening them with physical harm or placing a hand on a concealed weapon. I've heard about this happening several times on the subway when a UC spotted a pocketclip. THEN he pulls a badge necklace out of his shirt and makes an arrest -- and a citizen with no criminal record gets to spend a few nights in the Tombs until he can make bail. And if he can't make bail he is going to be locked in the goblin cage for a very long time.

But you can purchase realistic looking badges and handcuffs off eBay. It is bad enough when uniformed officers pull this stuff, but having UCs dressed like street people doing it takes this to an entirely different level.

 

[cgmblade]

One thing that is superscrewy and that I am highly opposed to seems to happen almost exclusively in NYC -- and that is the use of UC officers, dressed like dirtbags, approaching citizens in an aggressive and confrontational manner, seemingly hoping to provoke people into threatening them with physical harm or placing a hand on a concealed weapon. I've heard about this happening several times on the subway when a UC spotted a pocketclip. THEN he pulls a badge necklace out of his shirt and makes an arrest -- and a citizen with no criminal record gets to spend a few nights in the Tombs until he can make bail. And if he can't make bail he is going to be locked in the goblin cage for a very long time.

But you can purchase realistic looking badges and handcuffs off eBay. It is bad enough when uniformed officers pull this stuff, but having UCs dressed like street people doing it takes this to an entirely different level.

I agree, that kind of thing is just wrong. Fortunately I don't have any trips planned to NYC.

Just yesterday there was a news report of a robbery in the Atlanta metro area where one of the suspects was wearing a t-shirt w/ "POLICE" on it. There have been other instances in the Atlanta area where teams of bad guys dressed like police SWAT committed home invasions and a few years ago a teen boy was 'arrested' by a perv w/ a fake badge and then sodomized.

I understand that police may need to use UC officers at times, but imo all arrests and traffic stops should be by uniformed officers in marked patrol cars.

 

[mp510]

What started the debate about the stop and frisk I assume was my post. In NYC if an officer can state that he believes a person committed a crime, or is some how acting in a possible criminal way, he has the right to stop the person for questioning. I have rarely heard the term "Terry stop" used in NY, but I know of the case and decision. The officer can perform a frisk for weapons only. This is a knife forum, so that is where my statements here were headed. This forum is concerned about a possible weapons charge due to wheter or not a knife is legal, and how it was discovered in the first place. It would be hard to concieve an officer not being able to state why he stopped someone as their is a long list of good reasons that the courts have upheld as valid. The check for weapons and charges brought due to their discovery holds up far more often then any other item discovered during a stop. Drugs, stolen goods, stolen credit cards, etc, are often thrown out in court due to a bad search, however, a weapons charge stands in most parts of NYC. NYC is liberal in many ways, but liberals hate weapons, and seem to allow people's rights to be set aside in this area. In Brooklyn, the courts tend to throw out weapons arrests, but in Queens, Manhattan, tbe Bronx, you will have the deck stacked against you. In Staten Island it can go either way. That all explained, the drop in murders has declined greatly since this "stop and frisk" format and the creation of the 250 form started.

I ,of course, believe like most of us here, that we should be able to carry a legal knife, so long as we act in a legal manner with it. My statements are only intended to tell you the way the courts and law enforcement acts in this part of the country, so that you can follow the law. I am a fomer NYC LEO, but not a lawyer either. Hope that clears up some of the questions. Hey I am waiting to see if New Hampsire passes the no knife is illegal to carry law, as their guns laws are great now! I think I will retire there !

As a follow-up, a vast majority of the appellate cases don't question the knife's charicteristics at all. Rather, the question is almost always whether the sear was legal follow by appropriateness of the LE contact with the accused.

 

[mp510]

I have a close friend who is an NYPD Sargeant. He has been on the job for 20 years,12 as a patrol officer and 8 years as a patrol supervisor. He always tells me be careful about carrying knives in NYC and tells me my choices are usually pretty safe. I put some of our discussion to him and he shared his views. They are very similar to what tom19176 said previously. I used the example of some kids,I assumed teenagers, just "hanging out" outside the local convenience store. He said, if I had no complaints about any trouble at that location and the kids were otherwise behaving lawfully,I would need a reason to,at the very least,stop and frisk them. He went on to say that a marked patrol car causes people to react sometimes in a way that gives me reason to search them. He said observing body language is key. Many times people that are armed pat where they are carrying the weapon without realizing they are doing so. That would make him take notice and escalate the encounter to a stop and frisk scenario. Same goes for someone using and carrying narcotics. Guess it really doesn't take much to legally justify doing a stop and frisk from the cop's viewpoint. By the way,about my original question about the spyderco urban,he said stick with the SAK. He said you'd be rolling the dice insofar as a possible "dangerous knife" charge. He went on to say the fact that it doesn't lock does NOT mean it can't be considered dangerous. He said its design is to prevent the blade from closing on the users fingers which might be construed that its purpose is as a stabbing implement.

What I have tried to explain, in my other posts, is that the "mechanism" is indifferent from the slipjoint system found in more traditional slippied (including SAKs). Jabbing a slipjoint into something mighty be better than something with nothing to protect your fingers, but it is nothing like a lock knife. However, if the folks on the street aren't familiar, maybe its best to stick with more traditional knives. I personally stick to trads when I'm in New York.

 

[CHP5]

Why not a small fixed like the the CS Pendleton Mini-Hunter?

http://sap024.channeladvisor.com/p-2671-cold-steel-pendleton-mini-hunter-fixed-knife.aspx

Any legal problems with this?

 

[gundude73]

Legally, the police can not use a person's assertion of his rights as grounds for reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

Reasonable suspicion is required for a officer to briefly detain someone to investigate a matter further to determine if there is probable cause for an arrest. In general I believe the courts have ruled that about 15 minutes is the limit, at least in traffic stops. After that time an officer must let the person go or make an arrest. Unless the person is willing to remain voluntarily. There is no limit on how long a officer may have a voluntary conversation with a person, and of course the officer can arrest the person at any time during that conversation if he develops probable cause.

Probable Cause is required to arrest a person. It differs from reasonable suspicion in that there is specific evidence that a particular person has committed a crime. For instance, an officer responding to a break-in of a business at 3 am sees a person walking down the street near the business. The officer may have reasonable suspicion to stop and question the person regarding the break-in, but walking down the street by itself, even at 3am, isn't grounds for an arrest. If after stopping and talking to the person the officer observes that the person is carrying items reported stolen from the business then the officer has probable cause to arrest him.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or affiliated with law enforcement in any way, and all of the above is just my best understanding of these matters based upon reading and such.

well there is the 4th amendment. which protects citizens from unlawful search and seizures. this makes a police officer obtain a warrant before entering into a persons house etc. but if a police officer sees a person or vehicle that he feels needs to be searched for whatever reason he can ask to search it. if that person says no that pretty much gives the officer probable cause. which lets him legally search something w/o the consent of the person. that is at least what my political science class taught.

 

[MH13750]

I haven't been able to find any laws for NYC or NY State that mention non-locking folding knives(of less than 4 inches for NYC)being considered unlawful to possess. But I feel uneasy when entering the very gray area of "dangerous instruments". Looking at it from the viewpoint of the legal system,I'd have to say that only small,traditional looking knives would be considered ok to carry. And that definition of "traditional or normal" would likely be SAK's,Boy Scouts,and small multitools. Again it boils down to intentions that the legal system can place upon the person found possessing the knife. A Vic Classic on a keychain might be considered a weapon in the eyes of the law if the person found possessing it gives ANY indication that he might be carrying it to do harm to another. I regularly need to use a knife in my daily life. I use one at work,like breaking down boxes of supplies and cutting rope and straps. I enjoy slicing apples and other small pieces of fruit for snacks while away from home base. I tend toward sak-type knives in order to have the use of the tools to accomplish small tasks away from home. Even if it were completely legal and worry-free to possess a bowie knife in nyc,I doubt I'd carry more than a SAK. I don't intend on using a knife as weapon,so I don't gravitate toward those type of knives. But I do like the convenience of a small,one handed opening knife like the Spyderco Urban. Makes frequent use very easy being able to thumb it open. I guess this discussion really is about why we carry knives. Like most of us on these forums,I'd say we view knives as tools first. The fact that knives can also be considered weapons will,unfortunately, always cast a shadow on them.

 

[mp510]

Why not a small fixed like the the CS Pendleton Mini-Hunter?

http://sap024.channeladvisor.com/p-2671-cold-steel-pendleton-mini-hunter-fixed-knife.aspx

Any legal problems with this?

While you or I might not percieve it as anything other than a tool; it could be way too easy for an LEO and/or ADA to articulate an argument for even a small fixed blade being a dangerous knife (though it has not, to my knowledge been done yet). Considering the general attitudes that NYC has towards CPW/knife enforcement- I would personally avoid carrying a fixed blade unless it was really obvious that I was either carrying it for sporting or occupational purposes.

 

[Josh K]

well there is the 4th amendment. which protects citizens from unlawful search and seizures. this makes a police officer obtain a warrant before entering into a persons house etc. but if a police officer sees a person or vehicle that he feels needs to be searched for whatever reason he can ask to search it. if that person says no that pretty much gives the officer probable cause. which lets him legally search something w/o the consent of the person. that is at least what my political science class taught.

Asserting your rights is not probable cause.

 

[TOM1960]

I have a close friend who is an NYPD Sargeant. He has been on the job for 20 years,12 as a patrol officer and 8 years as a patrol supervisor. He always tells me be careful about carrying knives in NYC and tells me my choices are usually pretty safe. I put some of our discussion to him and he shared his views. They are very similar to what tom19176 said previously. I used the example of some kids,I assumed teenagers, just "hanging out" outside the local convenience store. He said, if I had no complaints about any trouble at that location and the kids were otherwise behaving lawfully,I would need a reason to,at the very least,stop and frisk them. He went on to say that a marked patrol car causes people to react sometimes in a way that gives me reason to search them. He said observing body language is key. Many times people that are armed pat where they are carrying the weapon without realizing they are doing so. That would make him take notice and escalate the encounter to a stop and frisk scenario. Same goes for someone using and carrying narcotics. Guess it really doesn't take much to legally justify doing a stop and frisk from the cop's viewpoint. By the way,about my original question about the spyderco urban,he said stick with the SAK. He said you'd be rolling the dice insofar as a possible "dangerous knife" charge. He went on to say the fact that it doesn't lock does NOT mean it can't be considered dangerous. He said its design is to prevent the blade from closing on the users fingers which might be construed that its purpose is as a stabbing implement.

A design that prevents the blade from closing on the fingers is a safety issue. Even utility knives have locking mechanisms to prevent unexpected closure. Firearms have more and more safety devices. Power tools are double-insulated to prevent deadly electrical shock and have guards near the cutting edge to protect the user. In our lawsuit-happy society, complete with an army of hungry contingency-fee attorneys, manufacturers of these products cannot afford to do otherwise. These are the issues that should be raised in a defense against a "dangerous knife" charge, where the knife in question has a locking mechanism.

 

[TOM1960]

One thing that is superscrewy and that I am highly opposed to seems to happen almost exclusively in NYC -- and that is the use of UC officers, dressed like dirtbags, approaching citizens in an aggressive and confrontational manner, seemingly hoping to provoke people into threatening them with physical harm or placing a hand on a concealed weapon. I've heard about this happening several times on the subway when a UC spotted a pocketclip. THEN he pulls a badge necklace out of his shirt and makes an arrest -- and a citizen with no criminal record gets to spend a few nights in the Tombs until he can make bail. And if he can't make bail he is going to be locked in the goblin cage for a very long time.

But you can purchase realistic looking badges and handcuffs off eBay. It is bad enough when uniformed officers pull this stuff, but having UCs dressed like street people doing it takes this to an entirely different level.

With the exception of a few (mostly southern) states, the law imposes a duty to retreat from a threat in public first, before any type of force is used in self-defense. I am referring to public places (subway, sidewalk, the line at McDonald's, etc.), not in your home or business. If I was approached in that manner, the first thing that I would do would be to cross the street, enter/exit a store, public building, etc. In other words, E&E before you reach for a weapon.

 

[CHP5]

Edited - started a new thread with my question . . .

 

[SVC]

well there is the 4th amendment. which protects citizens from unlawful search and seizures. this makes a police officer obtain a warrant before entering into a persons house etc. but if a police officer sees a person or vehicle that he feels needs to be searched for whatever reason he can ask to search it. if that person says no that pretty much gives the officer probable cause. which lets him legally search something w/o the consent of the person. that is at least what my political science class taught.

Your political science class was wrong. Legally, an invocation of your rights does NOT give an officer probable cause. It would defeat the whole purpose, no?

That's not to say that an aggressive officer might not take a refusal as suspicious, but he or she would have to come up with another, articulatable reason for searching you. As was mentioned above, an officer willing to bend or break the law could conceivably claim you made "furtive movements," for example, and unless you had unimpeachable witnesses or video tape, you'd be out of luck in terms of voiding the search.

I live in NYC and do my best to stay up to date with knife law here. I haven't yet heard of a case against an otherwise law abiding citizen which has resulted in more than a desk appearance ticket and fine, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

For what it's worth, I carry a UK pen knife every day (or sometimes my Lil' Temp) and don't worry about it. I'm not a criminal, I've never been arrested, I have good, explicit reasons for carrying a tool, and I have a good lawyer on speed dial.

I'm not a lawyer and nothing I've said should be interpreted as legal advice!

 

[tom19176]

SVC the NYPD policy for the last few years would make a Class A misd an offense that hit the level of requiring you to "go through the system". Possession of a gravity knife or dangerous knife is a Class A misd. or a Felony if you have other prior conviction for any crime. The exposed knife Admin Code is most often just a criminal court summons. In most knife cases you will be in for 24 to 48 hours from the time you are arrested to release on bail. Then there are three to five court dates....

 

[Zip7]

I have to say I have read this entire thread with great fascination, because I live in the south (Louisiana) where there is little or no reason to give any thought to which knife or knives I might decide to carry around.

I almost always have a slipjoint of some type and often a 3" blade locking knife of some kind, spyderco or benchmade etc... clipped in a pocket or in a belt sheath.

My question about this issue is, it seems to me from reading this that the police are at least some of the time focusing on trying to catch people with some sort of dangerous looking knife. Doesn't this detract from the task of catching criminals, or are the knife laws there just making it easier to catch criminals by turning regular citizens into criminals? I don't see what the point is in that. Maybe there isn't one.

Down here, there are very few knife related crimes. In New Orleans, harder criminals shoot each other instead. I'm guessing there must ever not be any criminals shooting people in NYC, because if there were, wouldn't the city be more concerned with that than whether Joe Stockbroker's knife might look dangerous? I lived in the general area for a short time when I was younger, and visited the city a couple of times, and in those days people got shot in NYC. I don't remember any stabbings, but I wasn't paying close attention. I remember shootings, because that was extremely rare where I grew up and was quite common in NYC (and most other cities I discovered).

 

[gundude73]

Your political science class was wrong. Legally, an invocation of your rights does NOT give an officer probable cause. It would defeat the whole purpose, no?

That's not to say that an aggressive officer might not take a refusal as suspicious, but he or she would have to come up with another, articulatable reason for searching you. As was mentioned above, an officer willing to bend or break the law could conceivably claim you made "furtive movements," for example, and unless you had unimpeachable witnesses or video tape, you'd be out of luck in terms of voiding the search.

I live in NYC and do my best to stay up to date with knife law here. I haven't yet heard of a case against an otherwise law abiding citizen which has resulted in more than a desk appearance ticket and fine, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

For what it's worth, I carry a UK pen knife every day (or sometimes my Lil' Temp) and don't worry about it. I'm not a criminal, I've never been arrested, I have good, explicit reasons for carrying a tool, and I have a good lawyer on speed dial.

I'm not a lawyer and nothing I've said should be interpreted as legal advice!

well "wrong" in the moral sense. but that is the real world. a lot of law has to do with intent, but not necessarily, plus if you "look" like you are not a threat and you are minding your own business than you should be fine. also if you dont do anything stupid you should be fine. also my political science class isn't a criminal justice class. the concept behind law and interpretation of the law are different.

 

[SVC]

SVC the NYPD policy for the last few years would make a Class A misd an offense that hit the level of requiring you to "go through the system". Possession of a gravity knife or dangerous knife is a Class A misd. or a Felony if you have other prior conviction for any crime. The exposed knife Admin Code is most often just a criminal court summons. In most knife cases you will be in for 24 to 48 hours from the time you are arrested to release on bail. Then there are three to five court dates....

Thanks for the update - good info! I'll have to re-read the thread to see if I missed it, is there any consensus on what makes a dangerous knife? Or is it anything beyond a SAK?