Spyderco ZDP-189

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Prairiedog

Joined
Jan 14, 2007
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Anyone know why Spyderco doesn't make a knife greater than 3" in ZDP-189? Is there an inherent weakness that disfavors longer lengths?
 
They haven't yet, but the Endura (4") and Stretch II (3.5") are both in the works. As mentioned, it is a limited production steel, and supply seems to be the major hang-up.
 
Prairiedog said:
Is there an inherent weakness that disfavors longer lengths?
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Not according to my wife!!!:eek: :D

Joking aside, I think it also has to do with the corresponding retail cost of a large ZDP knife. The ZDP Leek has a relatively small amount of steel in a pretty small blade and it still "retails" for $200. A large bladed knife like the BM Skirmish, or ZT 0200, or Spyderco Manix would probably price the knife outside the budget of the mass consumer.

Maybe Spyderco will do some shorter limited runs of Large-bladed ZDP?
 
I think the Endura ZDP will sell in the $80 range street price, not bad for that huge of a hunk of ZDP.
 
nygiantsfan3342 said:
Joking aside, I think it also has to do with the corresponding retail cost of a large ZDP knife. The ZDP Leek has a relatively small amount of steel in a pretty small blade and it still "retails" for $200. A large bladed knife like the BM Skirmish, or ZT 0200, or Spyderco Manix would probably price the knife outside the budget of the mass consumer.

Maybe Spyderco will do some shorter limited runs of Large-bladed ZDP?
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The price of the steel is insignificant compared to the retail price of the blade. In a BM Rukus type knife (size wise) there is about 5 USD worth of steel for a company buying some volume (and yes that is considering that it's powdermets). Cost, price and customer value are three very different things.

Just check out any distributor online, take away about 50%, their markup for handling small volumes, stocks and cutting the steel into small pieces. Estimate the amount of starting material needed for a blade and there you are.

Most 100$ knives have less than a 1$ worth of steel in them.

Note: I do know that there is more to making knives than the steel but the steel in itself is not as expensive as many seem to think. All the info is available, just ask for a pricelist and make your own calculations.
//Jay
 
JayAndersson said:
The price of the steel is insignificant compared to the retail price of the blade. In a BM Rukus type knife (size wise) there is about 5 USD worth of steel for a company buying some volume (and yes that is considering that it's powdermets). Cost, price and customer value are three very different things.

Just check out any distributor online, take away about 50%, their markup for handling small volumes, stocks and cutting the steel into small pieces. Estimate the amount of starting material needed for a blade and there you are.

Most 100$ knives have less than a 1$ worth of steel in them.

Note: I do know that there is more to making knives than the steel but the steel in itself is not as expensive as many seem to think. All the info is available, just ask for a pricelist and make your own calculations.
//Jay
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Prove that ZDP is only a $1.
 
The cost of a designer steel is not just the steel, but also increased tooling costs and possibly heat treat.

The cost of a designer steel is also maximum possible markup by the manufacturer.

The spyderco marketing strategy for ZDP and other "sprint runs" is maximum profit. To accomplish this for ZDP, they take existing designs (i.e. no need for investing in new tooling) add the new hot steel, maybe a different handle color, make a limited quantity so it can be priced as high as possible. This equals maximum profit. If the model doesn't sell, there are a limited number of blades to dump when discontinued. Longer blade lengths are more expensive and don't sell as quickly as the shorter one, thus the first ZDPs were smaller knives.
 
brownshoe said:
The spyderco marketing strategy for ZDP and other "sprint runs" is maximum profit. To accomplish this for ZDP, they take existing designs (i.e. no need for investing in new tooling) add the new hot steel, maybe a different handle color, make a limited quantity so it can be priced as high as possible. This equals maximum profit. If the model doesn't sell, there are a limited number of blades to dump when discontinued.
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On the contrary, Spyderco's strategy with the high-end steel Sprints is normally to get the steel in the hands of users for an affordable price. Witness the ZDP-189 Delica, which sells for only approximately $25 more than its standard VG-10 counterpart. Many steel "junkies" would likely pay quite a bit more (recall the very high prices that the ZDP-189 Delica Sprint was initially selling for on eBay when first released). However Spyderco continues to price the knives reasonably rather than "as high as possible", as you suggest. Of course Spyderco is also attempting to generate profits, but to suggest that they're somehow "gouging" consumers is an inaccurate claim, in my opinion.
 
Compare the price of a ZDP Delica or Caly Jr. to the price of the ZDP Leek and you will get some idea of just how much Spyderco is not profiteering from their ZDP sprint runs.
 
How much would you say that the ZDP-189 steel in this knife actually costs?

Spyderco Calypso Jr.,
Black FRN Handle,
ZDP-189 Blade, Plain Edge
Suggested Retail $114.95
Our Price $71.95
 
Well, I can say from personal experience that a bar of ZDP-189 that might barely get three folder blades cost me $50 plus shipping. Of course, that was before production companies were using ZDP...
 
Well 3 blades for 50$ is 16$ for a blade, imagine buying 10000 pounds I guess you'd get it for half price if you can go directly to a steel maker without a distributor. Thats about 8$. So saying 5 is maybe low. Still it's not a major part of the knife price.
//Jay
 
You must also consider the cost of turning such a very exotic steel into a blade. Remember the problems that they all had with CPM-440V (S60V) when they first began to use it? I suspect that ZDP-189 presented similar ones.

AG Russell's steel list shows ZDP-189 as having 3% carbon and 20% chromium, which are the highest readings in both elements that I have ever seen for a blade steel. I thought that the CPM-440V (S60V) was high at just over 2% carbon and 17% chromium. Gentles, that is one hard steel. Have you any idea what that does to grinders and to abrasive belts?
 
I don't mean to say that spyderco is gouging, that's your term not mine.

Maximizing profit in a product by using existing tooling (i.e. no capital investment) a proven product (i.e. no risk with the design) no knifemaker label (i.e. no royalties to pay) in a short run (i.e. no risk in inventory) with a hook to generate sales (i.e. new steel) is a classic business model. It's not gouging...it's the american way.

So the ZDP calypso Jr. is priced at $114, and since it's hot they'll sell at that price and at a lowest price of $77 (got add in shipping). Compare that to the close-out price of $35 when they ceased regular production. Pretty nice profit margin for everybody involved. What's wrong with that?
 
brownshoe said:
It's not gouging...it's the american way.
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It's just flat good business and it benefits all of us. Even in the situation where a vendor *is* gouging successfully, everybody and their uncle will jump on the bandwagon to earn a piece for themselves, driving the price down. Either way, we all win with a steady supply of cool new knives at reasonable prices.

Gordon
 
The cost of a designer steel is also maximum possible markup by the manufacturer.

The spyderco marketing strategy for ZDP and other "sprint runs" is maximum profit.
Click to expand...

and then:

I don't mean to say that spyderco is gouging, that's your term not mine.

Maximizing profit in a product by using existing tooling (i.e. no capital investment) a proven product (i.e. no risk with the design) no knifemaker label (i.e. no royalties to pay) in a short run (i.e. no risk in inventory) with a hook to generate sales (i.e. new steel) is a classic business model. It's not gouging...it's the american way.

So the ZDP calypso Jr. is priced at $114, and since it's hot they'll sell at that price and at a lowest price of $77 (got add in shipping). Compare that to the close-out price of $35 when they ceased regular production. Pretty nice profit margin for everybody involved. What's wrong with that?
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Just guessing again. You really have a thing against spyderco eh brownshoe? I thought you promised Sal to never do this kind of thing again when you tried to talk him out of that free knife. Back to try again?

The Caly jr.s in ZDP can be bought all day long for around $65. Pretty good for getting an exotic super steel into the hands of the consumer at the lowest possible cost for a quality knife IMO. Most companies would attempt to hype the steel and sell it in their most expensive knife, maximising profits. This way, more people can afford to try the newest and the best steels. That's Sal for you though. Joe
 
brownshoe said:
The cost of a designer steel is not just the steel, but also increased tooling costs and possibly heat treat.

The cost of a designer steel is also maximum possible markup by the manufacturer.

The spyderco marketing strategy for ZDP and other "sprint runs" is maximum profit. To accomplish this for ZDP, they take existing designs (i.e. no need for investing in new tooling) add the new hot steel, maybe a different handle color, make a limited quantity so it can be priced as high as possible. This equals maximum profit. If the model doesn't sell, there are a limited number of blades to dump when discontinued. Longer blade lengths are more expensive and don't sell as quickly as the shorter one, thus the first ZDPs were smaller knives.
Click to expand...
Your denial of a profiteering charge against Spyderco rings pretty hollow when one rereads this post, brownshoe.
 
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