Spyderco ZDP-189

JayAndersson said:
I though ZDP was laminated with 420 like steel for corrosion/toughness reasons. Edge of ZDP, where it shines, and sides of 420 for corrosion and toughness reasons. It's a way to handle brittleness, right? At 67 HRC it's a good solution.

My guess would be that the process of laminating is more expensive than making a solid part. Be how it may with that, I'd pick a laminated one over a solid because of the added benefits.
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There are indeed several advantages to the laminated blades, and my statement about William Henry was incomplete. I just re-read the February '05 Blade article that I referenced in my previous post. Rather than paraphrase, I'll simply quote a portion here:

“'We do not use the ZDP pure for three reasons,' Conable revealed. 'The ZDP is freakin’ expensive, and it is cheaper to do the laminate even though there’s cost in producing it. When you clad the ZDP with a softer material, you add tensile strength to the blade, and it is beautiful. When you take a three-layer steel and grind it, you see the core following the edge, but it’s inset about a quarter-inch depending on the grind.'"

With Spyderco, the decision to use solid or laminated blades for various models seems to be driven by the same reasons listed above, as well as some others. From a pure performance perspective, the laminated blades seem to be the way to go. They're apparently less expensive from a materials and manufacturing perspective, they should theoretically be tougher, and they have a uniquely appealing appearance. The fact that some of Spyderco's contractors cannot cut pure ZDP-189 blanks also contributes to the decision to use lamination on certain models (and indeed, the first ZDP-189 Spydercos were laminated).

However, I think some of the reasoning behind the solid ZDP-189 Spydercos is a matter of perceived benefits creating consumer demand, and one of product differentiation. After getting a taste of the steel, many knife enthusiasts were likely calling for a solid ZDP-189 bladed knife, whether it would provide true benefits over the laminated blades or not. Spyderco was able to fulfil this request with different contractors, and to bring the first solid ZDP-189 production folders to market, when others were still solely using laminated blades.. There are obviously those who prefer one or the other, and thankfully, the company has been able to provide buyers with reasonably priced offerings of each variety.
 
Jay, It is just my opinion, but I would suggest that you learn more about mfg costs of knives. Last quote on BG was $22 / lb with 14 months lead.

In addition, Exotic abrasive resistant steels are also more cosly to grind, polish, drill, ream, sharpen, etc.

Lead time on ZDP is 9-12 months just to get the steel.

Our ZDP Delica4 and Endura4, Caly3 ZDP and Stretch2 ZDP models are not Sprint runs. Our ZDP Chinese folder is a sprint. (includes royalty to Bob Lum).

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Jay, It is just my opinion, but I would suggest that you learn more about mfg costs of knives. Last quote on BG was $22 / lb with 14 months lead.

In addition, Exotic abrasive resistant steels are also more cosly to grind, polish, drill, ream, sharpen, etc.

Lead time on ZDP is 9-12 months just to get the steel.

Our ZDP Delica4 and Endura4, Caly3 ZDP and Stretch2 ZDP models are not Sprint runs. Our ZDP Chinese folder is a sprint. (includes royalty to Bob Lum).

sal
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Hi Sal,
I have never claimed that I do know about mfg costs of knifemaking.

In an earlier post I wrote something about the amout of steel in a blade. I based that on distributor prices and divided it by the number of blades possible to take out of that steel. I then assumed that a production company would get better prices than a guy buying min quantity through a distributor.

I noted that "there is more to making the knife than the steel". I kinda meant maching, heat treat and all the other things. Also I understand that these cost vary with steelgrade. Machining soft steels are cheaper than machining hard steels, for sure.

If however you refer to the laminated steel issue I only said that I believed that the process would be more expensive than just making a solid steel. I dont see why I should "learn more about mfg costs" over this issue.

I have never questioned knife prices in any post here, actually I find it amazing that such high-quality knives made of these exotic materials can be made for 50-150$, even in relatively small series.
//Jay
 
JayAndersson said:
If however you refer to the laminated steel issue I only said that I believed that the process would be more expensive than just making a solid steel. I dont see why I should "learn more about mfg costs" over this issue.

//Jay
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Hi Jay,

Sorry if I offended. It wasn't meant to be negative. Your $1.00 a blade is probably true of low cost knives made in China from cheap steels.

But Japanese, European and USA made steels on the other hand are quite expensive when one approaches "exotic" steels. $6 to $12 per blade, raw steel, (4" blade) is common. By the time you add shipping and processing costs, that figure could triple. That's why you don't see most companies using these steels more often. Hard to make a profit without going expensive. Hence the higher prices folder.

There are advantages and disadvantages, on a manufacturinbg level, to using both solid or laminated ZDP.

However, there is very little "real world" experience to determine whether or not these diffeences exist to the ELUs. I imagine we'll find out as more use and comment on the value of ZDP solid vs laminate.

sal
 
sal who does the lamination?
i have a cutom due thats zdp witha ats34 laminate-

does the maker laminate or do you buy the material already laminated with your choice of steel?
 
Hi Rosconey,

The steel maker does the laminating. Only certain steels will take the laminate effectively and the steel maker knows this best for production. I've seen a variety of laminates, including damascus (Kershaw Shun) depending on the core and heat treat requirements.

Ed Schempp knows quite a bit about laminating, perhaps he will chime in.

sal
 
thanx-btw when do i get my spyderco wilkins knife?-lol

anywho-hows that one moving along-and what steel did you choose for it
 
Sal,
As long as you looking at this thread, would you mind running through the pros and cons of solid vs. clad blades for ZDP-189, as you see it? Thanks.
Prairiedog
 
San Mai laminates offer a combination of the characteristics of the two parent metals, often an advantage over homogeneous steels. Many times you can take a very hard, bordering on brittle steel and laminate a clad onto a thin core and achieve more ductility in the thin core greater than a solid blade. When you use a tough ductile clad the resiliency of the core is improved giving better all around performance than a homogeneous piece of steel...Take care...Ed
 
I have a huge newbie question for you guys... Whats so great about ZDP? Is it the closest to a perfect balance of corrosion resistance and edge holding life?
 
I wouldn't say a perfect balance. In my experience ZDP is more prone to corrosion than say S30V. I'd say S30V is a better balance, but ZDP is tops in edge holding.
 
Hi Maxpower,

First of all, steels are good. better than bronze. Try to think of them as different flavors of ice cream. All good, just different. Values like "easy to sharpen, stays sharp a long time, won't rust, tough" are all properties that different steels seem to vary in their ability.

In the world of steel, there are "exotic" steels. As in the world of Autos, there are "exotic" autos.

In the world of autos, in the 60's, getting one horsepower per cubic inch of displacement (60 HP per liter) was considered an achievement. Few autos could attain that power ratio without turbos or other "bump".

Evolution, design, efficiency, accuracy, etc. over the years has made the internal combustion engine more effective. Now 100 horsepower per liter is available on production autos.

In the world of steel, foundries compete like auto companies. Evolution, refinement, new invention and knowledge, more accuracy, etc. over the years has created "Super" steels that could not be made 50 years ago. They perform to very high standards in different areas.

ZDP-189 is a "particle metallurgy process" (a new mfg process) that enables extraordinary chemistry to be built into steel. In this steel (ZDP), there is 3% carbon (a very high number) and 20% chrome (also a very high number).

These numbers, combined with the "optimal" heat treat, creates a blade steel that will perform exceptionally well in edge retention at a very high hardness (Rc65). (lotsa horsepower per cubic inch).

Hope that helps.

sal
 
The spyderco marketing strategy for ZDP and other "sprint runs" is maximum profit. To accomplish this for ZDP, they take existing designs (i.e. no need for investing in new tooling) add the new hot steel, maybe a different handle color, make a limited quantity so it can be priced as high as possible. This equals maximum profit. If the model doesn't sell, there are a limited number of blades to dump when discontinued. Longer blade lengths are more expensive and don't sell as quickly as the shorter one, thus the first ZDPs were smaller knives.
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Brownshoe the way you write your statements about the reasons Spyderco does anything involving their use of a particular steel or how they market comes across as fact. Unless you got the above directly from Sal, (and if you did get it from Sal it should have been stated within the above paragraph) I would think you should have said, "If I had to make an educated guess I would say they did it this way and here is why I believe they don't make it in longer blades." Instead you present it as if you were a part of the marketing team behind the use of ZDP189 and have first hand information knowing for fact that this is how and why they do it. Where did you get this information you present? What basis in fact do you have to back up those claims, not, oh well, its a standard model and I've seen it before, but of how you came to the conclusions you did in your first paragraph to speak absolutely as if you know without any doubt behind it?

The whole paragraph, and other later posts are laughable for other reasons also, namely that anything you type in regards to Spyderco has the underlying tone that you don't like Spyderco but try to cover it up as if you are actually a fan objectively making nothing but an innocent comment when in fact you have been the most vocal critic of Spyderco for as long as I can remember. It seems to me you go out of your way to voice anything negative you can about the company and Sal whenever the opportunity presents itself and now, unless you have some information you didn't post regarding how you came to obtain this information it appears you are pretending to know inside information about how Spyderco came up with marketing strategy and how they do business like you work there. If its an educated guess based on years of sales or marketing experience say so, but don't pretend to be the insider with details about how Sal or Spyderco does business or why he put a steel on a certain length blade vs another one because of the risk of having to dump blades no one wants.

Seems to me I recall Sal publically asking members what knives they would like to see in limited runs and if they had told him a 4" model it seems to me he was more than open to use one. It is also a matter of public record that they were never priced all that high from the retailers either. I got my last Calypso Jr. ZDP189 for $45 plus shipping. Yeah that sounds like maximum profit to me. :rolleyes:


STR
 
brownshoe said:
. I'm waiting for the new Spyderco-Terzuola design.
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Funny you seem to think there is one in the works, I've you post about three times. Too bad you are the only one posting about it.

Not here, nor on Spyderco.com is there any such collaboration mentioned.

Probably your pipe dream so you can dig up your old broken knife and extort a new one?
 
zenheretic said:
Funny you seem to think there is one in the works, I've you post about three times. Too bad you are the only one posting about it.

Not here, nor on Spyderco.com is there any such collaboration mentioned.

Probably your pipe dream so you can dig up your old broken knife and extort a new one?
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Currently, there is no design. However, from here:
Bob is still with us and still making knives. We've discussed another collaboration with him. We're just waiting for a design from him.
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There may be hope for him yet!
 
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