Spyderco ZDP-189

I don't mean to say that spyderco is gouging, that's your term not mine.

You may not have used the term, but it was implicit in your statement. Look up "gouge", then re-read your initial statement.

So the ZDP calypso Jr. is priced at $114, and since it's hot they'll sell at that price and at a lowest price of $77 (got add in shipping). Compare that to the close-out price of $35 when they ceased regular production. Pretty nice profit margin for everybody involved. What's wrong with that?

Okay, so now you're comparing MSRP with "close-out" pricing? It appears you didn't like my example, because it clearly demonstrated that your argument is fallacious. Take two current knives that were recently selling side-by-side at dealers. One is the standard VG-10 production Delica. It can be found at a popular dealer for around $47.00. Compare this with the $67.00 that the "maximum profit" ZDP-189 Delica Sprint sold for at the very same dealer. Factor in the increased costs of working with ZDP-189, plus the cost of the steel itself, and suddenly your $20 "maximum profit" differential begins to shrink.

If you want to see examples of manufactures exploiting the marketing potential and "hype" of new and exotic steels by charging excessive prices, they're certainly out there. However, you'll have a hard time arguing that Spyderco is one of those manufactures.
 
You guys are a trip.

Maximum profit is not profiteering...it's good business.

I did look up gouge. In my dictionary it means "To extort from." (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996). In no way does spyderco extort anything from knife buyers. Learn what the word means before you correct someone's usage. Concerning profiteering, I never said nor hinted that they were profiteers. My dictionary says profiteering means "To make excessive profits on goods in short supply." Knives are not in short supply. So spyderco is not profiteering. Learn what the word means before you put it into my mouth.

I used the close-out price as an example of a base calypso price that still covers costs and some profit to the seller and possibly the manufacturer. Compare this price to the brick and mortar price of $114 and someone is pocketing some nice change. That's fine with me.

So spyderco breathes life into a tired design, makes some good change, but is the product "better?" You can look at it a different way, I bet that $35 close-out calypso will give better performance than the ZDP blade in all areas other than edge retention. I know how to sharpen...do you? However, it's a "cooler product" and that's OK too. It's just not a better knife.

The marketing strategy for all sprint runs is somewhat the same. Too bad you all are consumers with little insight into marketing. You may be able to make wiser purchases if you knew a little bit about how the seller is manipulating you. You buy the knife because it's cool and "collectible" (another advantage of a sprint run.) However, it's not a better knife and in 10 years who knows if anyone will collect ZDP sprint runs. Anyone collect delicas in GIN-1? That was hot once too.

Relax boys. It's OK if you like hot knives...I do too. I'm waiting for the new Spyderco-Terzuola design.
 
I did look up gouge. In my dictionary it means "To extort from." (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996). In no way does spyderco extort anything from knife buyers. Learn what the word means before you correct someone's usage.

My dictionary defines gouge as:

"To extort from, swindle, or overcharge.

If your statements (including this latest one) are not intended to imply that Spyderco is overcharging for these knives, then you need to re-evaluate your writing, because that is what it is currently conveying.

I used the close-out price as an example of a base calypso price that still covers costs and some profit to the seller and possibly the manufacturer. Compare this price to the brick and mortar price of $114 and someone is pocketing some nice change. That's fine with me.

Either way, Spyderco (the company you're making the statements about) is making the same amount, whether the knife is being sold by a retailer as a "close-out" or by some shop at full MSRP. If Spyderco were truly interested in "maximum profit", they'd be selling to distributors for quite a bit more, which obviously isn't the case if the knives have street prices that are only $20 greater than their standard counterparts.


So spyderco breathes life into a tired design, makes some good change, but is the product "better?" You can look at it a different way, I bet that $35 close-out calypso will give better performance than the ZDP blade in all areas other than edge retention. I know how to sharpen...do you? However, it's a "cooler product" and that's OK too. It's just not a better knife.

Yes, the product is indeed "better" for certain uses. There are a number of attributes of ZDP-189 that easily warrant a mere $20 premium over a standard model, and if those attributes don't appeal to you, then obviously you aren't one of the intended consumers for these knives. By the way, I'm fully capable of sharpening, and yes, it is a better knife in some respects. If that's beyond your understanding, perhaps it would behove you to do some research.

The marketing strategy for all sprint runs is somewhat the same. Too bad you all are consumers with little insight into marketing. You may be able to make wiser purchases if you knew a little bit about how the seller is manipulating you. You buy the knife because it's cool and "collectible" (another advantage of a sprint run.) However, it's not a better knife and in 10 years who knows if anyone will collect ZDP sprint runs. Anyone collect delicas in GIN-1? That was hot once too.

First, I have a great deal of insight regarding marketing, and I am certainly not being "manipulated" by any knife company. Do not presume to know why drives the purchases I make. I buy each knife that I do for any number of reasons, and those reasons have no bearing whatsoever on your failing and unsupported argument. If you don't want to buy Sprints, that's your prerogative. To somehow imply that those who do are being "swindled" by Spyderco is, however, completely absurd.
 
If I remember correctly Sal has said that Spyderco sells their knives on a fixed margin. I believe that means the price Spyderco charges for a knife is directly tied to the cost of manufacture. Retailers are free to charge whatever they want.
The idea behind ZDP-189 sprint run was so that people didn’t have to pay hundreds of dollars to get their hands on the steel.
Though I am still interested in William Henry knives.
http://williamhenryknives.com/
 
ZDP is also about being able to SUPPORT a thin edge. Try running low angle bevels on your AUS8A blade..
 
Whoops, that IS true..forgot about the M16 from CRKT I have thinned down. Still steels like D2 won't handle ultra fine thin edges
 
So spyderco breathes life into a tired design, makes some good change, but is the product "better?" You can look at it a different way, I bet that $35 close-out calypso will give better performance than the ZDP blade in all areas other than edge retention. I know how to sharpen...do you? However, it's a "cooler product" and that's OK too. It's just not a better knife.

Um, yeah. I've been sharpening knives for over 35 years now. You? You say it's not a better knife? ZDP isn't better than GIN 1, AUS 8, VG10? You haven't ever had one, have you. Here you're talking about something you don't know anything about.....again.

Who the hell is talking about collecting here?

I would really be ashamed if I went around talking out my a$$ like you. You try to snipe at spyderco as usual, and, as usual it backfires on you.

Stop wasting your time and trashing your own reputation. Show some dignity. JL
 
I love my ZDP Delica. Based on my VERY unscientific cutting tests, my ZDP Delica outcuts my VG10 Delica. I'd happily pay the extra $25 for ZDP. YMMV.

BTW - I think Spyderco prices are reasonable given the quality of product, customer service and as compared to their competitors' pricing in the market.
 
What's a better knife depends upon your perspective. I am not a lover of hard steels. I abuse knives, especially EDC that are FRN and chipping, sharpening and fixing tips are a part of life. Hard steels are more difficult to fix than softer steels. Hard steels are more difficult to profile to the edge I want for the use of the knife. Many if not most hard steels are more prone to chipping. The calypso design is unchanged other than steel...thus by my "metric" it's not a better knife from a user's point of view.

From a price point of view, it's also not a better knife since it's still just a asian-made FRN, like the Doziers from KABAR for $20 at cabelas.

Mr. Mastiff, I am not "sniping" at spyderco, I've said time and again in this thread I admire their marketing strategy on the sprint runs. I'm even planning on buying one of the terzuola sprint run when it comes. I am a long time customer of their products, owning a sharpmaker, pocket sharpener, five liner locks, 3 lock backs, and two kitchen knives by spyderco, and given them as presents ~10 times.
 
I don't know what you guys have against brownshoe, but I'd say he's right. Isn't business about profits? Yes? Ok then.

From everybody else's point of view, Spyderco is just giving knifes away! Nice!
 
My wife just bought me Caly Jr ZDP-189 for my birthday at a local cutlery store for $124.95. Great edge, but I find Syderco knives to be rather ugly.

I took a refund and found a RAT-3 limited edition with ram horn scales on the web for about the same amount of money.

Oh! The reason for my post is to point out the line of kitchen knives by William Henry. The fact that they were the first knives they made with ZDP-189 discounts any idea that the steel mighht have physical limits on its size.

Everyone laminates it. Might there be any limits on the thickness?
 
What's a better knife depends upon your perspective. I am not a lover of hard steels. I abuse knives, especially EDC that are FRN and chipping, sharpening and fixing tips are a part of life. Hard steels are more difficult to fix than softer steels. Hard steels are more difficult to profile to the edge I want for the use of the knife. Many if not most hard steels are more prone to chipping. The calypso design is unchanged other than steel...thus by my "metric" it's not a better knife from a user's point of view.

As you've pointed out, everyone has different criteria by which they judge knives. Just because the ZDP-189 offerings are not superior in your opinion does not make them universally so. The ZDP-189 knives can and do perform better in certain respects, and for individuals that value the qualities that ZDP-189 provides, the minor price premium is justifiable. If your ideal knives are low-cost "beaters", then clearly the ZDP-189 pieces are not for you, and that's perfectly fine.
 
My wife just bought me Caly Jr ZDP-189 for my birthday at a local cutlery store for $124.95. Great edge, but I find Syderco knives to be rather ugly.

I took a refund and found a RAT-3 limited edition with ram horn scales on the web for about the same amount of money.

Oh! The reason for my post is to point out the line of kitchen knives by William Henry. The fact that they were the first knives they made with ZDP-189 discounts any idea that the steel mighht have physical limits on its size.

Everyone laminates it. Might there be any limits on the thickness?

The thickness limit is based on the equipment the manufacturer has. The Delica (and upcoming Endura) are solid ZDP because the particular maker under contract for their manufacture has a laser cutter capable of cutting blade blanks from the thicker stock. The contractor for the Caly Jr. does not have a laser cutter, and their equipment is not capable of cutting the blanks from the thicker ZDP stock, so it is laminated to reduce the thickness of the ZDP to where their cutter can handle it.

At least, that is what Sal said about the why on the laminated blades ;)
 
Everyone laminates it. Might there be any limits on the thickness?

As others have pointed out, Spyderco has a number of solid ZDP-189 blades (some rather large) planned, with two having already been released.

What I read regarding the William Henry Knives indicates that their decision to use laminated blades was an economic one, which further reinforces the notion that ZDP-189 is not cheap stuff to procure or to work with. Of course, others would have you believe that the added cost of ZDP-189 knives is really just a marketing scheme to extract every last cent from the wallets of ignorant consumers, but I digress....
 
I though ZDP was laminated with 420 like steel for corrosion/toughness reasons. Edge of ZDP, where it shines, and sides of 420 for corrosion and toughness reasons. It's a way to handle brittleness, right? At 67 HRC it's a good solution.

My guess would be that the process of laminating is more expensive than making a solid part. Be how it may with that, I'd pick a laminated one over a solid because of the added benefits.

//Jay
 
That's what I thought, too. Then Sal replied to a question about the laminated blade on one of the Spyderco forums, saying that it was because the contractor for the Caly Jr. didn't have a laser cutter and couldn't cut blades from solid ZDP stock. The laminated Caly Jr. has a street price pretty close to that of the solid Delica, so it really doesn't seem to me to be a cost factor, and Sal doesn't seem to be concerned about the possible brittleness of ZDP. I figure he has forgotten more about steel than I will ever know, so if he isn't worried, I'm not worried either :D
 
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